Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[DirtyWorks]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Is it that the ASO have profited from a UK start due to a big(ger) budget being paid to them? And that we only have that UK start because of Sky winning in 2012?

And if so you're going to do what - link it to Sky and use it as more 'evidence' that they are doping???

This is pro cycling. The "pro" part of that phrase means people make money. What people? ASO and the UCI. How do they make money? ASO raids tourism budgets. The UCI spiked their London Olympics viewership numbers.

Like Armstrong, the UCI has a prominent role in picking winners and Sky was chosen. ASO seems to be involved in picking winners too.

 

[simo1733]

If ASO had a prominent role in picking winners,then surely they wouldn't go this long without a French one.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Nothing would surprise me in cycling, but a tie up between Le Grand Depart 2014, the ASO, BC and Sky et al culminating in Wiggo getting a "free pass" for 2012 seems a tad far-fetched.

For starters, the Edinburgh and Leeds bids were both submitted long before 2012. The commercial viability of the ventures was clearly strong before Wiggo became high profile. The man who has done more to promote an interest in road cycling in the UK than anyone else is Mark Cavendish (which is why Sky wanted him at the outset).

For seconds, BC supported the Edinburgh bid. The Leeds bid was independent, but the ASO and Prudhomme were seduced by the Yorkshire countryside and Yorkshire hospitality. So BC and the ASO don't appear to have been particularly closely aligned in the past. Obviously, now that the Grand Depart is in Leeds, BC is behind it, as to do anything else would be rank stupidity.

In the UK, Tour coverage is on a minor TV channel, viewed regularly by an audience in the hundreds of thousands, which is tiny. The final stage and Wiggo's coronation was much more widely covered, but the viewing figures were no different to those for annual "Cav wins in Paris" show that has been a feature of late July for a few years now.

If you want a conspiracy theory then the most obvious one is that the 1st stage this year is set up specifically for Cav to end up in Yellow. There is no prologue, and the route for stage 1 takes the valley route in preference to any number of leg-breaking climbs. There's a long, flat run-in after the only major climb of the day, which is long but not very steep other than a bit at the bottom, and the stage finishes in town where Cav's Mum lives.

There's potentially more mileage in a theory that GB was favoured during the London Olympics, as there was a lot of political prestige invested in the Games being successful, and a sackload of gold medals was a key part of this. There may not be much mileage, however, as GB was primarily successful across a range of minority sports where facilities and technology were important (so the opposition is limited to rich countries) and huge amounts of cash were thrown at such sports. Success in the mainstream Olympic sports (athletics and swimming) where there is much more competition. was much more limited, notwithstanding Jess Ennis et al in athletics, despite loads of cash here as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Maybe the level to which it's all intertwined is exaggerated, but certainly the 2012 parcours was one extremely favourable to Wiggins, even before we knew he was on super-form, just as the 2009 parcours, seeing the return of the TTT and neutering the first set of mountains, was designed to keep Armstrong in contention as long as possible for the audience, even before we knew what kind of performance level he was at.

At my most conspiratorial, I always marvel at how interestingly the development of British cycling coincides with the decline of German cycling, a comparable (if slightly larger) population base with a strong pseudo-national team (replacing the German audience with, say, a Czech one, would not do since the potential audience from the Czech Republic is far smaller), and a cycling structure which had produced a lot of riders and money for about 15 years yet was almost totally dismantled within one or two. There's a year or so between the fall of T-Mobile and when the British riders started to be really noticeable, beginning with Cavendish winning 4 stages in 2008. I often wonder if the UCI, ASO or both noticed that there were quite a few young British riders with potential at that time and thought that they might be able to develop an audience to replace the lost audience figures in Germany when they pulled the plug if those guys went the right way, and with this Cavendish guy showing a hell of a talent for sprinting, that might be a catalyst they could use.

But then, if coverage is still hidden away on a minority channel then did it really work? I mean, British Cycling's profile is undoubtedly a lot, lot higher than it was, but while Wiggins' name value is high, I'd expect that the likes of Hoy and Pendleton still have far more name recognition than Froome in the UK. The British Olympic Committee have admitted they isolated cycling as an area to put a lot of funding in because there were a lot of medals available in a shallow field of competition. Having brought all the success to that, it only made logical sense, once all targets were achieved on that front, which they were at Beijing, to move into the road, since that's where the international money in cycling is to be found.

I don't think it's all intertwined, it's two coincidental strands (Britain looking for success, funding cycling, moving into road cycling, trying to develop interest in the sport beyond the Olympics is one; ASO/UCI looking for a new market to replace lost audience and races is another). If Britain hadn't put that funding in WHEN they did, or if they hadn't chanced upon a world class athlete like Cav at the time they did, maybe it would be different, and the coincidence with the London Olympics is perhaps just that - a coincidence, although it may help understand why the progression has been so quick and why the course at the 2012 Tour was so suited to the British contender. Remember, we've seen the revamping of the points classification at the Tour to make it easier for Cavendish to win, we've had one utterly pancake flat World Championships, we've had a series of sprint- and TT-heavy parcours in recent years that suit the kind of athletes produced by a track program.

There is stage managing out there for sure, but there's also coincidence.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

At my most conspiratorial, I always marvel at how interestingly the development of British cycling coincides with the decline of German cycling...

Excellent as always, Libertine. To the bit above, for this to be a conspiracy, you'd need to find some way of manufacturing Mr Cavendish, as without his success, the profile of GB road cycling would have been pretty limited other than Dave Millar's EPO saga. He just happened to arrive at the time German road cycling started to decline.

Whilst you could potentially take a punt on being able to create a Tour winner from a large number of GB endurance riders with a route that has two long ITTs and diesel-friendly climbs, there's no amount of backroom deals that could have produced Cav's Tour success in 2008-2012; it was just a freak genetic outcome (and a lead-out train that cut its teeth as Team Telekom!)

 

[Alphabet]

Wiggo did not have 13 kg of fat to lose from an 82kg body.

I'd be surprised if he had even had a quarter of that to lose. You can't be a multi-Olympic gold medalist if you're carrying around body fat percentages greater than about 10. It boggles my mind that he lost 13 kilos and somehow increased his power.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

He [Wiggo] lost muscle. You can't decide which part of your body loses muscle.

Don't agree with the bold bit in general.

If you have a training regime that involves upper body resistance work as well as lower body work then you will carry a certain amount of upper body muscle. If you then ditch the upper body work and just work the lower body then you will lose some of your upper body muscle.

Check out Rebecca Romero's build as a rower (lots of upper body work) vs her build as a "trackie" (less upper body work). She's a different shape, and muscle bulk changes in women are less significant than in men.

If Wiggo was doing a significant amount of upper body work in his track days then losing a lot of muscle just off his upper body when he switched to being a pure roadie is entirely possible. (This happened to me when I gave up rowing and became a cyclist, though I may be an outlier. I used to have a quite bulky upper body. Now I just look scrawny.)

Note the word "If" in the paragraph above. I'm not asserting that this is the case.

I think the 82kg quoted for Wiggo is when he was at his fattest post Beijing, though 82kg is not exactly excessive for a guy his height. A racing weight of 77/78kg with a body fat of high single digits seems more likely. Then to get to 69kg, he'd need to lose around 5kg of upper body muscle and 3kg via a reduction in bodyfat% to the low single digits which isn't that unreasonable, though again, I'm not asserting that this is what actually happened.

 

[Race Radio]

Horner says that if he wanted to be 5 pound heavier he could eat whatever he likes, but for those 5 pounds he has to be extreme.

It makes no sense that during the off season they are within 1/2kg of their summer race weight. Doing that, and not being sick all the time, is not normal

 

[thehog]

Horner says that if he wanted to be 5 pound heavier he could eat whatever he likes, but for those 5 pounds he has to be extreme.

It makes no sense that during the off season they are within 1/2kg of their summer race weight. Doing that, and not being sick all the time, is not normal

1000% agree.

And to the point between knee injury to Vuelta Horner appears to have held his minimum weight despite zero or a lot less kilometres on the bike.

 

[The Hitch]

Es commentator at e3 talking about Cancellara:

"He has talked about maybe going for the Ardennes classics but to do those he would probably need to lose a little bit of weight, and if you lose weight you lose power."


Interesting. So cancellara would lose power just by slimming down the little bit neccesary to go for the Ardennes (since he's already one of the better hill riders in the sport anyway).

Makes me wonder about Wiggins and Froome losing all that weight not for 1k ardennes climbs but 20k Alpe ones and losing no power.

 

[red_flanders]

Not just losing, but gaining power.

 

[deeno1975]

After reading Bad Blood by Jeremy Whittle. While the book is dated (published in 2008) it covers the Festina Affair, Operation Puerto, Michael Rasmussen, Armstrong, David Millar etc…

Just to note a few points presented in the book as factual, what they mean is open for discussion…

- David Brailsford was dining with David Millar when Millar was arrested in France

- Nicole Cook was not very happy to see Millar welcomed back into team GB for the 2006 World Championships

- When Millar returned in 2006 he was working with Cecchini. When confronted by this, David Brailford said “If Dave had a relationship with Cecchini, we would say thank you and goodbye. I told him he shouldn’t have done it and that Team GB don’t want any to have any association with Cecchini. I have complete confidence in Dave. He knows that in this climate he has to be very careful as to who he associates with.”
A few weeks later in an interview with a French Magazine, Millar said that he was working with Cecchini for 3 months with Teams GB’s knowledge.

- Wiggins is spoken of in terms of his anti doping attitude and even Kimmage was a supporter of him

 

[Race Radio]

Not just losing, but gaining power.

Gaining power.....with zero muscle mass. Makes no sense.

 

[Justinr]

Es commentator at e3 talking about Cancellara:

"He has talked about maybe going for the Ardennes classics but to do those he would probably need to lose a little bit of weight, and if you lose weight you lose power."


Interesting. So cancellara would lose power just by slimming down the little bit neccesary to go for the Ardennes (since he's already one of the better hill riders in the sport anyway).

Makes me wonder about Wiggins and Froome losing all that weight not for 1k ardennes climbs but 20k Alpe ones and losing no power.

Was it the commentator that said if you lose weight you lose power, or was he quoting Cancellara as saying "if I lose weight I'll lose power"? It makes a bit of a difference - one is a (possibly speculative) comment and one is an actual quote.

 

[The Hitch]

The commentator is a former rider. And he is not the first former rider to suggest Cancellara would lose power if he lost weight.

 

[Justinr]

After reading Bad Blood by Jeremy Whittle. While the book is dated (published in 2008) it covers the Festina Affair, Operation Puerto, Michael Rasmussen, Armstrong, David Millar etc…

Just to note a few points presented in the book as factual, what they mean is open for discussion…

- David Brailsford was dining with David Millar when Millar was arrested in France

- Nicole Cook was not very happy to see Millar welcomed back into team GB for the 2006 World Championships

- When Millar returned in 2006 he was working with Cecchini. When confronted by this, David Brailford said “If Dave had a relationship with Cecchini, we would say thank you and goodbye. I told him he shouldn’t have done it and that Team GB don’t want any to have any association with Cecchini. I have complete confidence in Dave. He knows that in this climate he has to be very careful as to who he associates with.”
A few weeks later in an interview with a French Magazine, Millar said that he was working with Cecchini for 3 months with Teams GB’s knowledge.

- Wiggins is spoken of in terms of his anti doping attitude and even Kimmage was a supporter of him

Good book that - I need to read it again.

Kimmage is an interesting chap though - I've read his book as well and a lot of his articles (I actually dont really remember him much / at all from his racing days). Unfortunately for me he now just seems to come across as very bitter and also with the impression that the whole world is doping. Be interesting to delve further in to what his relationship with Walsh is now like.

 

[Justinr]

The commentator is a former rider. And he is not the first former rider to suggest Cancellara would lose power if he lost weight.

Ok - just wondering, thanks for clarifying.

 

[SundayRider]

Es commentator at e3 talking about Cancellara:

"He has talked about maybe going for the Ardennes classics but to do those he would probably need to lose a little bit of weight, and if you lose weight you lose power."


Interesting. So cancellara would lose power just by slimming down the little bit neccesary to go for the Ardennes (since he's already one of the better hill riders in the sport anyway).

Makes me wonder about Wiggins and Froome losing all that weight not for 1k ardennes climbs but 20k Alpe ones and losing no power.

Obviously I am nowhere near the level of these guys however a few years I switched to running and did no cycling at all. Got back on the bike a year later and felt good aerobically however I had lost a fair bit of muscle mass and subsequently a lot of power.

 

[Afrank]

Es commentator at e3 talking about Cancellara:

"He has talked about maybe going for the Ardennes classics but to do those he would probably need to lose a little bit of weight, and if you lose weight you lose power."


Interesting. So cancellara would lose power just by slimming down the little bit neccesary to go for the Ardennes (since he's already one of the better hill riders in the sport anyway).

Makes me wonder about Wiggins and Froome losing all that weight not for 1k ardennes climbs but 20k Alpe ones and losing no power.

Hmm, so what your saying is...we have yet one more bit of proof that Cancellara is really cleans.

 

[DirtyWorks]

But then, if coverage is still hidden away on a minority channel then did it really work?

You are missing the point. It's not about viewers, it's about passing money from public to private hands. It's the Olympics model.

Let's imagine Corsica's entire budget was never fully disclosed and let's triple it to 6 million Euro for three stages. Let's imagine the British numbers are overstated and call it 20 million pounds. You are telling me 14 million pounds are for airfare?

I call it picking winners, you call it stage management. My world view is probably too pessimistic. In principal I think we agree.

 

[red_flanders]

Gaining power.....with zero muscle mass. Makes no sense.

I would really like to hear an explanation from some quarter. Someone knows what's going on. Never seen the like, personally.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Obviously I am nowhere near the level of these guys however a few years I switched to running and did no cycling at all. Got back on the bike a year later and felt good aerobically however I had lost a fair bit of muscle mass and subsequently a lot of power.

Great point. And the muscles you use for running are used in the same way as the ones you use for cycling. Didn't Tyler Hamilton spend all his spare time off the bike walking and running because of the benefits?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I would really like to hear an explanation from some quarter. Someone knows what's going on. Never seen the like, personally.

I have an explanation, doping. Peptide doping is a revolution. No more post-cycle therapy at all.

 

[dolophonic]

I have an explanation, doping. Peptide doping is a revolution. No more post-cycle therapy at all.

this is what I've heard too.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-07/explainer-performance-enhancing-substances/4506126

 

[proffate]

Makes me wonder about Wiggins and Froome losing all that weight not for 1k ardennes climbs but 20k Alpe ones and losing no power.

I'd assume slimming down affects anaerobic power more than aerobic capacity so it makes more sense to slim down for longer climbs. That said, Wiggins still crushed prologues at minimal weight which doesn't add up.