Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Parker]

How many times do people have to get shocked by a top level Time Triallist doing a big one-off domestique performance in the mountains before you realise it's quite usual?

 

[PhiLiz]

1600 VAM for 69 minutes at super high altitude.

It's like Bernal at the Iseran for twice as long. And Bernal was a minute faster than everyone else.

Oh, don't be mean. You know how the Sky fans get when you talk numbers that crush their logic.

 

[PhiLiz]

How many times do people have to get shocked by a top level Time Triallist doing a big one-off domestique performance in the mountains before you realise it's quite usual?

Can you please give us another equivalent performance, then?

 

[roundabout]

yeah, there were only 2 riders with Dennis at the top, 3 riders within 1 minute, 5 within 2 minutes, 6 within 3, 7th after Dennis was at 3 and 3 quarter minutes behind.

I mean sure, Stelvio is a brutal climb, but this was something else entirely

Edit: may have missed Novak, but that doesn't change anything

 

[Parker]

Can you please give us another equivalent performance, then?

Not equivalent to that. but this is a weak field in an unusual year. And GC riders rarely make their move before the final climb anyway.
But anytime Cancellara, Van Aert, Kwaitkowski etc starts dropping GC riders the Clinic shouts 'Doping, how is this possible?' If you can't understand how something has happened you have to consider that the fault may be with you understanding.

 

[BlueRoads]

I am anything but an Ineos fan... but please look at the riders he left behind (and then compare them to the ones he competed with during the TdS '19).
If this was a performance better than Pogacar on PdBF, then Hindley is the next Lance Armstrong.

 

[ice&fire]

They're two months late to the game. It will be interesting to see if Carapaz & Co. is on the same diet when the longer climbs come in the Vuelta.

 

[DFA123]

I am anything but an Ineos fan... but please look at the riders he left behind (and then compare them to the ones he competed with during the TdS '19).
If this was a performance better than Pogacar on PdBF, then Hindley is the next Lance Armstrong.

It's not a better peformance than Pogacar on PdBF, but it's more ridiculous. Because Dennis is not a super talented and rapidly improving 21 year old whose potential is still unknown. He's a 30 year old time triallist, who had been around for years, and has never done anything of note before in high mountains. Suddenly he joins Sky, and he's dropping nearly everyone on the Stelvio.

 

[PhiLiz]

Not equivalent to that. but this is a weak field in an unusual year. And GC riders rarely make their move before the final climb anyway.
But anytime Cancellara, Van Aert, Kwaitkowski etc starts dropping GC riders the Clinic shouts 'Doping, how is this possible?' If you can't understand how something has happened you have to consider that the fault may be with you understanding.

So, no example then.

 

[Parker]

So, no example then.

That's because long range efforts like this are incredibly rare. The parcours doesn't often present the opportunity. But I can point to plenty of examples of the Clinic crying doper when a TTer drops better GC riders.

 

[samhocking]

A domestique like Dennis or Wout 'should' be able to ride a slightly higher level for a shorter period of time than the leader, by the very fact they A) have to be on the front facing the wind in early parts of the race, while their leader saved energy and B) their finish line is long before their leaders so the comparative efforts are not overlayed but offset i nthe race. Dennis isn't as good as Kuss or Wout and the level at Giro is far from Tour de France, by the fact nobody of recent GT winning ability is in the race anyway.

 

[Mayomaniac]

yeah, there were only 2 riders with Dennis at the top, 3 riders within 1 minute, 5 within 2 minutes, 6 within 3, 7th after Dennis was at 3 and 3 quarter minutes behind.

I mean sure, Stelvio is a brutal climb, but this was something else entirely

Edit: may have missed Novak, but that doesn't change anything

Novak is also a bit of an elephant in the room for me on the mountain stages, the guy has suddenly become a great climbing domestique. Today his pace dropped Nibali, who tried to stay with him and Bilbao for a bit after they caught them.

 

[PhiLiz]

That's because long range efforts like this are incredibly rare. The parcours doesn't often present the opportunity. But I can point to plenty of examples of the Clinic crying doper when a TTer drops better GC riders.

Please, do give me a 15km comparable example then. Hell, even a 10km one. Remember the conditions:

• similar grade
• drops everyone but his team leader and one (I'll even give you two) adversary
• first time that rider pulled something like this
• it's not known as a world class climber
• a world class time trialist

You can point about those examples, sure, but not with me and you keep on pushing that idea when I did nothing like that. Sounds to me like a dodge, but please prove me wrong.

 

[roundabout]

Novak is also a bit of an elephant in the room for me on the mountain stages, the guy has suddenly become a great climbing domestique. Today his pace dropped Nibali, who tried to stay with him and Bilbao for a bit after they caught them.

Agreed. This and Piancavallo were probably his best ever climbing performances. Out of almost nowhere.

 

[Parker]

Please, do give me a 15km comparable example then. Hell, even a 10km one. Remember the conditions:

• similar grade
• drops everyone but his team leader and one (I'll even give you two) adversary
• first time that rider pulled something like this
• it's not known as a world class climber
• a world class time trialist

You can point about those examples, sure, but not with me and you keep on pushing that idea when I did nothing like that. Sounds to me like a dodge, but please prove me wrong.

Can you give me any example of any domestique doing a 10km turn on the front dropping people.?No. Because the opportunity doesn't present itself. GC riders without two or three domestiques with 5km to go is rare enough. Having them down to their last one with 50km to go is almost unheard of.


But fans of climbing records will be glad to know that TGH and Hindley equalled the previous record for Torri di Fraele today, with Bilbao going just over a minute faster

 

[PhiLiz]

Can you give me any example of any domestique doing a 10km turn on the front dropping people.?No. Because the opportunity doesn't present itself. GC riders without two or three domestiques with 5km to go is rare enough. Having them down to their last one with 50km to go is almost unheard of.

So, again, nothing comes to mind and yet you're insinuating people are freaking out about something that, by your own admission, never happens. Alright, fair enough.

 

[Parker]

So, again, nothing comes to mind and yet you're insinuating people are freaking out about something that, by your own admission, never happens. Alright, fair enough.

No, I said whenever a TT rider drives on the front and drops GC riders the Clinic shouts 'doper, how is this possible'. Examples include Van Aert at the Tour, Castroviejo pre Tour. Kwiatkowski is Tours gone by. We can go all the way back to Cancellara at CSC. The Clinic fails to understand that those riders don't care when they finish the stage. Their finish line is some kilometres before.

However, if you want examples of Rohan Dennis putting out 5.7w/kg for an hour (according to estimates), I would point to you his entire career.

 

[fbjim]

OK, so a rider who's always been considered one of the most insane talents of his generation, two Ineos riders (which really does the opposite of helping your point, might as well point out Ritchie Porte at Ax 3 Domaines 2013), and if Fabian Cancellara dropped everyone on the Stelvio all the way to taking the summit KOM, I think I would have started a riot.

 

[Red Rick]

A domestique like Dennis or Wout 'should' be able to ride a slightly higher level for a shorter period of time than the leader, by the very fact they A) have to be on the front facing the wind in early parts of the race, while their leader saved energy and B) their finish line is long before their leaders so the comparative efforts are not overlayed but offset i nthe race. Dennis isn't as good as Kuss or Wout and the level at Giro is far from Tour de France, by the fact nobody of recent GT winning ability is in the race anyway.

Van Aert wasn't even close to what Dennis did today. He was there with 15 guy left at best. And being compared to Van Aert isn't a cleanzzz thing in the first place

Kuss is about as pure a climber as can be and that's all he's good for.

 

[Red Rick]

Novak is also a bit of an elephant in the room for me on the mountain stages, the guy has suddenly become a great climbing domestique. Today his pace dropped Nibali, who tried to stay with him and Bilbao for a bit after they caught them.

Bahrain found the stuff.

Nibali and Dumoulin holding hands crying they shouldn't have left their old teams?

 

[Forever The Best]

Van Aert wasn't even close to what Dennis did today. He was there with 15 guy left at best. And being compared to Van Aert isn't a cleanzzz thing in the first place

Kuss is about as pure a climber as can be and that's all he's good for.

Van Aert was there with 7-8 riders or so at Glieres. And he had much less climbing pedigree than Dennis. And it was a ridiculous performance as well.
Kwiatkowski, Van Aert, Castroviejo and Cancellara never had a performance like this where they dropped everyone bar 2 on such a hard climb and do 5.6 W/Kg or so for 70+ mins.

 

[fbjim]

It's too bad Barguil left Sunweb, we could have seen him and Bardet do a French version of Saunier Duval 2007

 

[Forever The Best]

However, if you want examples of Rohan Dennis putting out 5.7w/kg for an hour (according to estimates), I would point to you his entire career.

Like?

 

[Rollthedice]

Bahrain found the stuff.

Nibali and Dumoulin holding hands crying they shouldn't have left their old teams?

Rod Ellingworth, the man who transforms donkeys.

 

[Red Rick]

Like?

Either he's not gonna give any examples or give ITT examples that are on no altitude.