Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Parker]

Either he's not gonna give any examples or give ITT examples that are on no altitude.

Why don't time trials count? He can obviously put out big watts for long periods Does power transform into a different entity at altitude?

I suppose you are confused by lead out men in sprints too aren't you. How can they go faster than the sprinters from 700-300m?

 

[DFA123]

Why don't time trials count? He can obviously put out big watts for long periods Does power transform into a different entity at altitude?

I suppose you are confused by lead out men in sprints too aren't you. How can they go faster than the sprinters from 700-300m?

Not sure you understand how this whole power-weight thing works.

 

[fbjim]

Yeah, watts are watts, which is why nobody would freak the hell out if Nairo Quintana won a pan flat 30K time trial.

 

[roundabout]

5.7 W/kg at 1800 meters average altitude should be roughly equivalent to something like 6.1 at sea level (PO2 matters)

 

[Parker]

Yeah, watts are watts, which is why nobody would freak the hell out if Nairo Quintana won a pan flat 30K time trial.

Dennis is 72kg according to google. He may be a little less now. That's not much more than GC riders that are good TT riders

 

[PhiLiz]

No, I said whenever a TT rider drives on the front and drops GC riders the Clinic shouts 'doper, how is this possible'. Examples include Van Aert at the Tour, Castroviejo pre Tour. Kwiatkowski is Tours gone by. We can go all the way back to Cancellara at CSC. The Clinic fails to understand that those riders don't care when they finish the stage. Their finish line is some kilometres before.

However, if you want examples of Rohan Dennis putting out 5.7w/kg for an hour (according to estimates), I would point to you his entire career.

Now, now... lying is not nice. What you said was:
"Dennis rides stages like this all the time. It's more like an 800m champion pacemaking at world record pace for 1000m in a 1500m"
"How many times do people have to get shocked by a top level Time Triallist doing a big one-off domestique performance in the mountains before you realise it's quite usual"

So, it wasn't just about the Clinic freakin' out. It was about being usual. Actually, quoting you, "quite usual". Yet, you've produced zero examples and keep dodging.

On to your last sentence and this,

Why don't time trials count? He can obviously put out big watts for long periods Does power transform into a different entity at altitude?

I suppose you are confused by lead out men in sprints too aren't you. How can they go faster than the sprinters from 700-300m?

I see now why you keep implying we're easily baffled by the sport. We mustn't be talking about the same sport at all... I'm talking road cycling, what about you?

 

[Parker]

Now, now... lying is not nice. What you said was:
"Dennis rides stages like this all the time. It's more like an 800m champion pacemaking at world record pace for 1000m in a 1500m"
"How many times do people have to get shocked by a top level Time Triallist doing a big one-off domestique performance in the mountains before you realise it's quite usual"

So, it wasn't just about the Clinic freakin' out. It was about being usual. Actually, quoting you, "quite usual". Yet, you've produced zero examples and keep dodging.

I said TT riders doing big performances in the mountains. It usually happens on the final climb like Van Aert at the Tour and many before him.

Power is power. If someone who has plenty of it and no concern about his finishing time they are going cause those that do a lot of problems.

 

[luckyboy]

Not really a shock that Dennis can do that. He's a great time trialist and doesn't weight like 80kg+ or something, plus he has a history of being a good, solid climber with results to back it up.

If he kept going up Torri di Fraele and they dropped Hindley instead of turning it off and finishing 8 minutes down then we can say something

 

[roundabout]

so only dropping arguably the best climber in the race uphill after being on the front for 40km would have made Dennis suspect?

different people have different levels of tolerance for cycling performances, but this one seems to be a bit too high

 

[Parker]

Just to warn you. On Saturday Ganna will rip it up on one of the climbs of Sestriere probably the penultimate one. This will drop better climbers than him. He will come in 20 minutes down.

And don't get me wrong here. I think Dennis did one of the great domestique rides of modern times. But someone has to. Why not a double world champion?

 

[luckyboy]

so only dropping arguably the best climber in the race uphill after being on the front for 40km would have made Dennis suspect?

different people have different levels of tolerance for cycling performances, but this one seems to be a bit too high

I just think that it's not outlandish that a guy who has got the following results and who specialises in 30-60min threshold efforts can go into the red for 32 minutes on the Stelvio and then drag some climbers along the valley road after before blowing up.

Second at Suisse, 16th at the Giro, within two minutes on Zoncolan MTF, Good results on summit finishes at 2013 Dauphine, 2014 Cali, 2015-16 US Pro Challenge... Not amazing but still a good climber.


If he kept going on the final climb then that's crazy – the guys he dropped on Stelvio had to save something for that climb but his finish line was 10km earlier.

 

[Parker]

Also people say that this not a weak field. In the pre race betting Kelderman was 40/1 - 9th favourite. Of the eight riders ahead of him five didn't make it past the first rest day. TGH was 150/1. Hindley was 500/1.

 

[SafeBet]

Also people say that this not a weak field. In the pre race betting Kelderman was 40/1 - 9th favourite. Of the eight riders ahead of him five didn't make it past the first rest day. TGH was 150/1. Hindley was 500/1.

What were the odds for Chris Froome before the 2011 Vuelta? Or for Cobo?
Was that a weak field because of that?

Stop looking at the names to evaluate a performance. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Climbing]

Defending this is like trying to defend 2016 Nibali resurrection or 2018 Landis/Coppi cavalcade.
Just open your eyes and use your brain.
Or look at numbers, that's even better.

 

[Red Rick]

What were the odds for Chris Froome before the 2011 Vuelta? Or for Cobo?
Was that a weak field because of that?

Stop looking at the names to evaluate a performance. It doesn't make sense.

Weak field and strong performance aren't mutually exclusive. The future will decided if TGH and Hindley are actually great or if it's just a random year where a small selection of dudes go way faster than usual.

As for the 2011 Vuelta. That one was just weak. Froome's climbing times weren't even that good. Even his ridiculous looking Pena Cabarga win was the slowest climb in the 4 times it's been in the Vuelta. His Angliru time was also not that special. He was followed by a past in Menchov and a Vacansoleil Poels.

Sure Froome made a ridiculous improvement, but he would've gotten murdered by Schleck and Contador if they'd shown up at the 2011 Vuelta with some form. I also rate 2009 Tour Wiggins higher than 2011 Vuelta Wiggins.

 

[Rollthedice]

Weak field and strong performance aren't mutually exclusive. The future will decided if TGH and Hindley are actually great or if it's just a random year where a small selection of dudes go way faster than usual.

As for the 2011 Vuelta. That one was just weak. Froome's climbing times weren't even that good. Even his ridiculous looking Pena Cabarga win was the slowest climb in the 4 times it's been in the Vuelta. His Angliru time was also not that special. He was followed by a past in Menchov and a Vacansoleil Poels.

Sure Froome made a ridiculous improvement, but he would've gotten murdered by Schleck and Contador if they'd shown up at the 2011 Vuelta with some form. I also rate 2009 Tour Wiggins higher than 2011 Vuelta Wiggins.

Horner would have made Froome look like an amateur on Pena Cabarga. In this Giro mates like Hindley are climbing like some random Spanish guys destroying the Vuelta during the Fuentes years.

 

[PhiLiz]

Also people say that this not a weak field. In the pre race betting Kelderman was 40/1 - 9th favourite. Of the eight riders ahead of him five didn't make it past the first rest day. TGH was 150/1. Hindley was 500/1.

I see you're good with numbers then. Care to dig a little bit in those numbers that show true performance instead of those which predict performance? Pro tip: the former are the ones that define the strength of the field.

 

[Red Rick]

Horner would have made Froome look like an amateur on Pena Cabarga. In this Giro mates like Hindley are climbing like some random Spanish guys destroying the Vuelta during the Fuentes years.

Horner is probably Nibali's best pathway to a final Grand Tour win tbh.

 

[Rollthedice]

Horner is probably Nibali's best pathway to a final Grand Tour win tbh.

Beetroot juice.

 

[Red Rick]

Beetroot juice.

Lost the hair weight

 

[Mayomaniac]

Horner would have made Froome look like an amateur on Pena Cabarga. In this Giro mates like Hindley are climbing like some random Spanish guys destroying the Vuelta during the Fuentes years.

Tao Perez and Jai Gonzalez.

 

[Red Rick]

Tao Perez and Jai Gonzalez.

I fear for Heras' Angliru record

 

[ppanther92]

this tao dude wasn't the leader and now he is the best climber in the race and has a chance to win the overall. Come on

I mean, now that Froome is no longer they needed a new British superstar. Used the Vuelta 2011 script again. Thomas crashed out though and didn't fully fulfill his Wiggins-role for additional drama.

 

[ppanther92]

1600 VAM for 69 minutes at super high altitude.

So basically an underwhelming performance in the context of 2020

 

[Red Rick]

So basically an underwhelming performance in the context of 2020

It's brutal but it's simply not Poggers.

In reality it's probably slightly less than Col de La Loze but those are far bigger names.