Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Wallace and Gromit]

Can you define "tempo"?

Is this the same definition in training where tempo is zone 3 and threshold is zone 4?

If it's any help, in his book (which incidentally is dreadfully written) Wiggo describes how on the ascent of the Glandon, when Evans attacked, the wattage was upped from 400 to 450 until Evans was reeled in. I guess the pace half way up an intermediate climb on a long stage would be a sensible place to start a definition of tempo.

Also in his book, Wiggo describes his wattages in the final TT as 450-460, with drops to 430 on the downhills and increases to 490 on the uphills.

 

[ebandit]

watch..............enjoy

Can you define "tempo"?

Is this the same definition in training where tempo is zone 3 and threshold is zone 4?

did you not watch the race?

new cycling season is about on us........................we can all sit back and

watch the racing.......i'm sure it will tell observers more than endless

repetition of the same discussions here in the clinic

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

But still, the whole brittish success in track and road cycling over the past years culminating in the 2012 dominance should simply raise eyebrowes, mine and yours.

The track side is relatively easy to explain: There are relatively few countries that take the track seriously. In the traditional cycling nations, talent bypasses the track and goes to the road. In the UK, for 10-15 years now, all the talent goes to the velodrome in Manchester. To complement all this, since the 2012 OGs were awarded to London (mid 2005) there has been a huge amount of money directed towards likely medal-winning sports (track cycling, rowing, sailing, equestrianism).

GB has also targeted the "timed" events, where tiny fractions make all the difference, as a timed event is essentially "cycling by numbers" rather than tactical. The cash that the GB set up has makes it that much easier to cover all the angles that might arise. For example, GB could trial more types of material for skinsuits than others, to find the most aerodynamic, and experiment with bike design, simply because they have more cash for salaries and experimentation.

It also helped that on the mens' side, in the sprint and the TP, the GB opposition was way down performance-wise on what they'd achieved earlier in the season.

On the road, the only unavoidable eyebrow-raiser amongst the Brits is Froome. His transformation from being out of contract to the Vuelta podium in less than a month just cannot really be explained with a straight face, even by committed Sky/Froome fans.

All other performances in GB/Sky's success are plausible (ish) in isolation, though in combination, they take a leap of faith to accept.

 

[zigmeister]

Guys, Wiggo is a knight now. You cannot question him any longer. This is obviously turning into a Kimmage/IRA/British thing.

This thread shoul be renamed to:

The Crying Game

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The track side is relatively easy to explain: There are relatively few countries that take the track seriously.

Does this support my contention that Wiggins is a fish in a very tiny pond?

 

[Franklin]

Clearly, Sky hiring Leper Leinders was just cover ploy for their real dark lord, Donkey man Dan.

Nice spin and deflect Mellow... as somewhere in there is the big question.

I am curious what your opinion is of the hiring of Leinders. I have answered your requests for information several times on Rasmussen vs. Rabo, yet you never came back on it.

You honestly believe Dave had no idea who they hired to take care of his biggest assets? Especially when he found it so important after a life and death situation?

Perhaps you know more about Leinders and his infamous experience with tropical diseases and heat strokes.

 

[sniper]

The track side is relatively easy to explain: There are relatively few countries that take the track seriously. In the traditional cycling nations, talent bypasses the track and goes to the road. In the UK, for 10-15 years now, all the talent goes to the velodrome in Manchester. To complement all this, since the 2012 OGs were awarded to London (mid 2005) there has been a huge amount of money directed towards likely medal-winning sports (track cycling, rowing, sailing, equestrianism).

GB has also targeted the "timed" events, where tiny fractions make all the difference, as a timed event is essentially "cycling by numbers" rather than tactical. The cash that the GB set up has makes it that much easier to cover all the angles that might arise. For example, GB could trial more types of material for skinsuits than others, to find the most aerodynamic, and experiment with bike design, simply because they have more cash for salaries and experimentation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ol...es-using-drugs-claims-disgraced-supplier.html
Note that Conte's 60% is an average estimate. Of that 40%, I assume 90% consists of athletes who didn't compete for the medals. Perhaps 10% of clean athletes on the podium.


It also helped that on the mens' side, in the sprint and the TP, the GB opposition was way down performance-wise on what they'd achieved earlier in the season.

On the road, the only unavoidable eyebrow-raiser amongst the Brits is Froome. His transformation from being out of contract to the Vuelta podium in less than a month just cannot really be explained with a straight face, even by committed Sky/Froome fans.

All other performances in GB/Sky's success are plausible (ish) in isolation, though in combination, they take a leap of faith to accept.

decent analysis.
However, if we may believe Victor Conte, ca. 60% of the athletes at the olympics were doped. Were the brittish trackracers among that select 40% of clean athletes? Unlikely, considering this discipline is traditionally rife of dopers. I think that 40% consisted of chessplayers, darters, bowlers, showdivers, and athletes of that kind.

 

[sniper]

The track side is relatively easy to explain: There are relatively few countries that take the track seriously. In the traditional cycling nations, talent bypasses the track and goes to the road. In the UK, for 10-15 years now, all the talent goes to the velodrome in Manchester. To complement all this, since the 2012 OGs were awarded to London (mid 2005) there has been a huge amount of money directed towards likely medal-winning sports (track cycling, rowing, sailing, equestrianism).

GB has also targeted the "timed" events, where tiny fractions make all the difference, as a timed event is essentially "cycling by numbers" rather than tactical. The cash that the GB set up has makes it that much easier to cover all the angles that might arise. For example, GB could trial more types of material for skinsuits than others, to find the most aerodynamic, and experiment with bike design, simply because they have more cash for salaries and experimentation.

It also helped that on the mens' side, in the sprint and the TP, the GB opposition was way down performance-wise on what they'd achieved earlier in the season.

On the road, the only unavoidable eyebrow-raiser amongst the Brits is Froome. His transformation from being out of contract to the Vuelta podium in less than a month just cannot really be explained with a straight face, even by committed Sky/Froome fans.

All other performances in GB/Sky's success are plausible (ish) in isolation, though in combination, they take a leap of faith to accept.

decent analysis.
However, if we may believe Victor Conte, ca. 60% of the athletes at the olympics were doped. Were the brittish trackracers among that select 40% of clean athletes? Unlikely, considering this discipline is traditionally rife of dopers. I think the 40% clean athletes consisted of chessplayers, darters, bowlers, showdivers, and athletes of that kind.

Nota bene: Conte's estimate is an average. Of the alleged 40% clean athletes, I assume 90% didn't compete for the medals. On the podium, if we're lucky, we had 10% of clean athletes. Trackers among them? I doubt it.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Does this support my contention that Wiggins is a fish in a very tiny pond?

He's a fish in a small pond on the track, to be sure.

However, he had a huge margin of superiority over anyone in the IP in terms of peak performance and ability to put a series of fast rides together. Thus, the questions are, how big a fish was he and was he the right type of fish to ride stage races and maintain performance through a three week race?

His IP performances vs McGee in 2004 suggest that he was a very big fish, though they don't tell us a huge amount about the type of fish he was.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

However, if we may believe Victor Conte, ca. 60% of the athletes at the olympics were doped. Were the brittish trackracers among that select 40% of clean athletes?

Obviously, I don't know for sure. Only the athletes concerned do.

However, on the ladies side of the track squad, there are some very young folk involved. Laura Trott is barely out of nappies, with Dani King, Jess Varnish and Becky James not much older. Jo Rowsell is almost a pensioner at the age of 23.

For all of them to be on the sauce given their age and proximity to the families seems unlikely. They just seem too young, with too little opportunity to have gone too far astray, for a team-wide doping strategy to be in place.

Finally, Wendy Houvenhagel was apparently spitting feathers at not getting a ride in the TP qualifiers. I know from bitter personal experience that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; would this extend to a scorned woman blowing the whistle on a doping programme? It would appear not so far, if indeed there is one.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Obviously, I don't know for sure. Only the athletes concerned do.

However, on the ladies side of the track squad, there are some very young folk involved. Laura Trott is barely out of nappies, with Dani King, Jess Varnish and Becky James not much older. Jo Rowsell is almost a pensioner at the age of 23.

For all of them to be on the sauce given their age and proximity to the families seems unlikely. They just seem too young, with too little opportunity to have gone too far astray, for a team-wide doping strategy to be in place.

Finally, Wendy Houvenhagel was apparently spitting feathers at not getting a ride in the TP qualifiers. I know from bitter personal experience that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; would this extend to a scorned woman blowing the whistle on a doping programme? It would appear not so far, if indeed there is one.

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experiences with women. It's pretty obvious though that Trott isn't doping, she seems far too lovely to be involved in that.

 

[sniper]

Obviously, I don't know for sure. Only the athletes concerned do.

However, on the ladies side of the track squad, there are some very young folk involved. Laura Trott is barely out of nappies, with Dani King, Jess Varnish and Becky James not much older. Jo Rowsell is almost a pensioner at the age of 23.

For all of them to be on the sauce given their age and proximity to the families seems unlikely. They just seem too young, with too little opportunity to have gone too far astray, for a team-wide doping strategy to be in place.

Finally, Wendy Houvenhagel was apparently spitting feathers at not getting a ride in the TP qualifiers. I know from bitter personal experience that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; would this extend to a scorned woman blowing the whistle on a doping programme? It would appear not so far, if indeed there is one.

Like you, I don't know either.
Indeed, for the reasons you mention, it seems far-fetched to assume that they are knowingly involved in a doping scam viz. team-wide doping program.

But perhaps the key lies in the word 'knowingly'.

The best way for any team to stay under the radar, and to avoid whistleblowers, is to simply not tell the racers what the medics are giving them. It's perhaps also why team-wide programs are potentially more successful than individual doping. It's something you need a lot of money for, and top-notch medics. It's what Team Brittain and Team Sky have.

Also, in the case of team-doping, it might actually be an advantage to have young, naive riders.
At that young age, if a doctor tells you "here, have some of these vitamins", what do you say?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experiences with women.

Thanks. Women are like turbo trainers in some respects: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[sniper]

Obviously, I don't know for sure. Only the athletes concerned do.

However, on the ladies side of the track squad, there are some very young folk involved. Laura Trott is barely out of nappies, with Dani King, Jess Varnish and Becky James not much older. Jo Rowsell is almost a pensioner at the age of 23.

For all of them to be on the sauce given their age and proximity to the families seems unlikely. They just seem too young, with too little opportunity to have gone too far astray, for a team-wide doping strategy to be in place.

Finally, Wendy Houvenhagel was apparently spitting feathers at not getting a ride in the TP qualifiers. I know from bitter personal experience that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; would this extend to a scorned woman blowing the whistle on a doping programme? It would appear not so far, if indeed there is one.

Indeed, for the reasons you mention, it seems far-fetched to assume that they are knowingly involved in a doping scam viz. team-wide doping program.

But perhaps the key lies in the word 'knowingly'.

If there is a team-wide doping program at Team Brittain and Team Sky (and they certainly have the means for that), why tell the riders that they are being doped? Better not tell them anything.
In fact, it would then be an advantage to have young, naive riders.
At that young age, if a doctor tells you "here, have some of these vitamins", what are you going to say?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Thanks. Women are like turbo trainers in some respects: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I've known a few women who were referred to as bikes but I think that is a different analogy altogether...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

At that young age, if a doctor tells you "here, have some of these vitamins", what do you say?

Good question. This is hopefully where family influence comes in.

It's a fairly unpleasant scenario you describe. My issue with it is that there is absolutely no evidence for it. It is simply a theory to fit with

i) Your prior belief that there is doping taking place; and

ii) An acceptance that for the ladies concerned, for the reasons discussed, knowing partaking of a doping programme appears unlikely.

The penalties for conventional doping are not enough in general to dis-incentivise the management to supply and administer PEDs to willing participants, if they are that way inclined, as there are only bans and fines at risk. (Although Sir Dave now risks losing his knighthood.)

Doping folk without their knowledge would presumably be criminal with prison sentences likely. As the Lance case proved, when the prospect of going to prison arises, people start behaving very differently to when all they risk is a 2 year ban.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Obviously, I don't know for sure. Only the athletes concerned do.

However, on the ladies side of the track squad, there are some very young folk involved. Laura Trott is barely out of nappies, with Dani King, Jess Varnish and Becky James not much older. Jo Rowsell is almost a pensioner at the age of 23.

For all of them to be on the sauce given their age and proximity to the families seems unlikely. They just seem too young, with too little opportunity to have gone too far astray, for a team-wide doping strategy to be in place.

Finally, Wendy Houvenhagel was apparently spitting feathers at not getting a ride in the TP qualifiers. I know from bitter personal experience that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; would this extend to a scorned woman blowing the whistle on a doping programme? It would appear not so far, if indeed there is one.

On the money here, so far as it goes.

If men's track is thin with most talent in most countries going direct to road, then discover women's track. No need for any doping program, a true location for "marginal gains" to work, in fact you don't need "marginal gains" just a few more riders on your squad than your team/places, paid and supported to work for 4 years. No other nation can get near them.

Two other points. At the time of Beijing, Thomas was apparently posting faster times than Brad in the IP. Brad was the "chosen child" - remember, like Hoy he was meant to get three golds. The big bust up with Cav ! But just as both Wendy and the lad who was 5th rider for the boys at London found - you don't question Shane or Dave. Obviously Thomas kept his head down and took the strategy of waiting for the "chosen child" to retire and then looking forward to his chance to take up that seat. Froome appearing is upsetting that strategy.

Wendy was ideal to take the 2nd slot for the TT at London - pan flat course, no bends. Justified claim for a medal ride. She took a serious beating when she opened her mouth and dared to question the BC/Sky juggernaut in late August. Then she took the sop of riding the TT at the Worlds on a course that could only show her up in a bad light. There is nothing Earth shattering that is going to be revealed from that source.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Indeed, for the reasons you mention, it seems far-fetched to assume that they are knowingly involved in a doping scam viz. team-wide doping program.

But perhaps the key lies in the word 'knowingly'.

If there is a team-wide doping program at Team Brittain and Team Sky (and they certainly have the means for that), why tell the riders that they are being doped? Better not tell them anything.
In fact, it would then be an advantage to have young, naive riders.
At that young age, if a doctor tells you "here, have some of these vitamins", what are you going to say?

This sounds pretty shocking and is probably going to be the biggest doping story of all time if and when it comes out. If Brailsford is involved in stuff like this (and I assume you have evidence that he is) then I hope they lock him up and throw away the key.

 

[sniper]

Good question. This is hopefully where family influence comes in.

It's a fairly unpleasant scenario you describe. My issue with it is that there is absolutely no evidence for it. It is simply a theory ...

In soccer, this scenario is not simply a theory but a well-documented practice.
why wouldn't it happen in cycling? You need a lot of money and top-notch medics to pull it through. If you manage to get it in place, it's surely much more effective than individual doping and you avoid whistleblowers.

 

[sniper]

This sounds pretty shocking and is probably going to be the biggest doping story of all time if and when it comes out. If Brailsford is involved in stuff like this (and I assume you have evidence that he is) then I hope they lock him up and throw away the key.

let's just say they dope. How, when and where is open to debate.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

In soccer, this scenario is not simply a theory but a well-documented practice.
why wouldn't it happen in cycling?

It's theory that the GB ladies were doped in such a way.

It's also well documented that if you put a motor on a bike it goes faster and this might be why GB dominated on the track, but again, there's absolutely no evidence that this happened.

I think you need to work a bit harder to demostrate that a theory that cannot be disproved was actually likely in practice.

 

[Benotti69]

Obviously, I don't know for sure. Only the athletes concerned do.

However, on the ladies side of the track squad, there are some very young folk involved. Laura Trott is barely out of nappies, with Dani King, Jess Varnish and Becky James not much older. Jo Rowsell is almost a pensioner at the age of 23.

For all of them to be on the sauce given their age and proximity to the families seems unlikely. They just seem too young, with too little opportunity to have gone too far astray, for a team-wide doping strategy to be in place.

Finally, Wendy Houvenhagel was apparently spitting feathers at not getting a ride in the TP qualifiers. I know from bitter personal experience that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; would this extend to a scorned woman blowing the whistle on a doping programme? It would appear not so far, if indeed there is one.

Nice OTT post.

Women scorned by lovers may unleash hell and take things to a level that brooks no return but sport is a different matter and why would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Why would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans?

Anger or a desire for revenge? Most murders are solved, as victims and murderers are usually well known to each other or related. Thus, in advance of committing murder, a rational person knows the chances of being caught are very high. Yet people still commit the crime. People do not always act rationally!

Plus, if she was acting rationally, the fees for an exclusive/book blowing the whistle on a Team GB doping programme would be astronomical by the standards of a track cyclist.

Plus, she's not going to be going to Rio; she's 37 now and even Jo Rowsell will be "old" come Rio.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Nice spin and deflect Mellow... as somewhere in there is the big question.

I am curious what your opinion is of the hiring of Leinders. I have answered your requests for information several times on Rasmussen vs. Rabo, yet you never came back on it.

You honestly believe Dave had no idea who they hired to take care of his biggest assets? Especially when he found it so important after a life and death situation?

Perhaps you know more about Leinders and his infamous experience with tropical diseases and heat strokes.

Not spinning about Leinders; post was about Dan Hunt.
I don't think anybody thinks hiring Geert was anything other than a big mistake.

 

[Mellow Velo]

At that young age, if a doctor tells you "here, have some of these vitamins", what are you going to say?

Good question. This is hopefully where family influence comes in.

I can assure you that it does; absolutely.
Helps when you know every little step up in performance, every step of the way.