Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Freddythefrog]

It is not happeneing. The bus has left!

Anger or a desire for revenge? Most murders are solved, as victims and murderers are usually well known to each other or related. Thus, in advance of committing murder, a rational person knows the chances of being caught are very high. Yet people still commit the crime. People do not always act rationally!

Plus, if she was acting rationally, the fees for an exclusive/book blowing the whistle on a Team GB doping programme would be astronomical by the standards of a track cyclist.

Plus, she's not going to be going to Rio; she's 37 now and even Jo Rowsell will be "old" come Rio.

Stop the conspiracy theories (on the women's and peripheral men's side). She may well retire right now but there is no secret story to tell. She had her reputation and 8 years of hard work destroyed by Shane not selecting her and then opening her mouth, without stating the facts to support it. She was slaughtered in the press. If she viewed bridges as burnt then she would not have taken the ride in the TT at the Worlds which did not suit her strengths and who the heck put this garbage in her mouth

'the course is very rolling and there are a couple of quite steep climbs.

'I am good at climbing; in any of the time-trials where there have been hills I've done very well. That shouldn't pose too much of a problem for me.

'I've done my homework and I'm happy that I can do reasonably well.

'The course suits my strengths as a rider and I'll give it everything I've got.'

No Wendy, the course exactly did not suit your strengths and the first 90° bend and cobbles after 400m showed the rest of the watching World that you had been set up like a kipper.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

If you want to discuss women doping, please open another thread. It is off topic here.

Susan

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Anger or a desire for revenge? Most murders are solved, as victims and murderers are usually well known to each other or related. Thus, in advance of committing murder, a rational person knows the chances of being caught are very high. Yet people still commit the crime. People do not always act rationally!

Plus, if she was acting rationally, the fees for an exclusive/book blowing the whistle on a Team GB doping programme would be astronomical by the standards of a track cyclist.

Plus, she's not going to be going to Rio; she's 37 now and even Jo Rowsell will be "old" come Rio.

Name one cyclist not caught for doping who came out and ratted out other dopers.

Your argument is full of omerta-ignorance.

 

[sniper]

Nice OTT post.

Women scorned by lovers may unleash hell and take things to a level that brooks no return but sport is a different matter and why would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans.

😀
true story though.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Stop the conspiracy theories (on the women's and peripheral men's side). She may well retire right now but there is no secret story to tell.

Exactly. My point was that if there was, Wendy H would be quite highly motivated (though not necessarily sufficiently) to spill the beans given the circumstances of her not getting a gold medal. My original reference to the subject did only wonder about scorned women, so I've not been pushing any theories on that front.

 

[Freddythefrog]

If you want to discuss women doping, please open another thread. It is off topic here.

Susan

The title is SKY. Sky do not sponsor a women's trade road team despite the GB girls wearing such kit at the World Champs. They do sponsor the GB women track riders, which covers all of those discussed. These riders receive remuneration from Sky and are managed by most staff who receive two salaries. One out of the UK public purse and one courtesy of Rupert.

The GB Road girls receive nothing from Rupert.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Name one cyclist not caught for doping who came out and ratted out other dopers.

Everyone bar Hamilton and Landis in Lance's case? It's a matter of motivation to get people talking, and missing out on an Olympic gold when

i) In training, you'd been in a trio that rode faster than the gold medal winning time;

ii) You'd been promised a ride even though not selected for the initial trio; and

iii) You're 37 and have no more chances

might just motivate you. Note the conditional here. She was motivated enough to speak to the press about not getting a ride and I doubt that her subsequent treatment made her any happier!

Your argument is full of omerta-ignorance.

And I suggest your non-argument is full of ignorance of a few things as well, most notably motivation and the specifics of the TP selection situation.

The most likely scenario is that she was as mad as hell but there was no story to tell.

 

[sniper]

..
And I suggest your non-argument is full of ignorance of a few things as well, most notably motivation and the specifics of the TP selection situation.

The most likely scenario is that she was as mad as hell but there was no story to tell.

and you're blaming us for coming up with theories?
yours is the wildest one.

the guys who ratted out lance are completely irrelevant. they were put under federal pressure and under oath.

think of what benotti69 said above: why ffs would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans?
look at Trent Lowe. No more way back for that guy.

Dear Wiggo was right. You're severely underestimating omerta.

 

[Mellow Velo]

and you're blaming us for coming up with theories?
yours is the wildest one.

the guys who ratted out lance are completely irrelevant. they were put under federal pressure and under oath.

think of what benotti69 said above: why ffs would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans?
look at Trent Lowe. No more way back for that guy.

Dear Wiggo was right. You're severely underestimating omerta.

One very famous and public one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Rooks

Even made it, here:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1395

😉

Although, no bean spilling on others...........
..........of course, there's always Frankie Andreu

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Let us please nevertheless take the womens' discussion to its own thread. Why shouldn't the women have the same chances and opportunities as the men? 😀

Susan

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

why ffs would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans?

I think she's already burnt it by complaining to the media at the time. Referring to Laura, Dani and Jo as "juvenile" probably didn't help either.

 

[sniper]

If you take Andreu's case, he came clean because he was asked about it on a daily basis and he didn't feel like lying. That guy had a conscience, and having to lie about his past was eating him. I don'T know about the Rooks, Winnen and Ducrot, but I assume the same applied to them.

Perhaps Wendy hasn't told us her story because nobody has asked her about it. So I'd say let's just ask Wendy.
And don't forget she might have been doped without knowing.

By the way, we know about such practices (i.e. doping athletes without their knowledge) not just from soccer. We've heard that story about ADR 1989 as well. They were doping their riders without their knowledge. Lemond didn't trust his teamdocs as a consequence.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Perhaps Wendy hasn't told us her story because nobody has asked her about it. So I'd say let's just ask Wendy.
And don't forget she might have been doped without knowing.

By the way, we know about such practices (i.e. doping athletes without their knowledge) not just from soccer. We've heard that story about ADR 1989 as well. They were doping their riders without their knowledge. Lemond didn't trust his teamdocs as a consequence.

Feel free to speculate.
You'll appreciate that I can't join in.

 

[Freddythefrog]

and you're blaming us for coming up with theories?
yours is the wildest one.

the guys who ratted out lance are completely irrelevant. they were put under federal pressure and under oath.

think of what benotti69 said above: why ffs would she burn her bridge to Rio by spilling the beans?
look at Trent Lowe. No more way back for that guy.

Dear Wiggo was right. You're severely underestimating omerta.

The wrong level. The women's track program can be entirely clean and be as dominant as it has been. It adds a huge amount to the respectability of whole lot. Just think - where did Lance go wrong ? And to anyone like Dave or Shane, they knew in 2000 that Lance was doped up as much as Riis had been before him. They would have watched and known that Lance was in the treacle, as they thought about constructing Team Sky. OK it was more than likely that in 2007/8, as they planned, that the consensus was that Lance would survive, but the fault line to potential failure was there to see.

 

[sniper]

Feel free to speculate.
You'll appreciate that I can't join in.

I do appreciate it.
I was just rebutting Wallace and Gromit's suggestion that 'no story' equals 'no doping'.
You're correct that everything else is mere speculation.

 

[sniper]

The wrong level. The women's track program can be entirely clean and be as dominant as it has been. It adds a huge amount to the respectability of whole lot. Just think - where did Lance go wrong ? And to anyone like Dave or Shane, they knew in 2000 that the Lance was doped up as much as Riis had been before him. They would have watched and known that Lance was in the treacle as they thought about making Team Sky. OK it was more than likely that in 2007/8 as the planned the consensus was that Lance would survive but the fault line was there to see.

Lance screwed up by letting too many people in on the plan.

Fact - the peloton is slower. Conclusion the program does not need to embrace as many as it had to in the time of Lance. Froome may well be a renegade doing his own thing, oblivious to a generally clean Sky (that is boys and girls) away from a tiny nucleus who all know exactly what the deal is and are not going to leak. That Nucleus would be as mad with Froome as anyone because he is bringing the probing eyes towards their carefully constructed plan.

Guys like Rodriguez, Contador, Evans, Frandy, etc. make the impression of being on individual programs, comparatively restricted individual programs, due to the threat of being flagged by the passport. Their form is correspondingly unstable, peaks alternating with drops in form. They look like they're 'searching'.
Sky makes the impression of having a team-wide program in place. Arguably they are the only team with the financial means to dope at this sophisticated level. Their results are stable. The medical know-how required to pull off such a scheme shouldn't be underestimated. Sky are ahead of the game. And it's not because of warming down techniques or skin suits.

Ashenden and Kimmage know what time it is.

 

[MatParker117]

Guys like Rodriguez, Contador, Evans, Frandy, etc. make the impression of being on individual programs, comparatively restricted individual programs, due to the threat of being flagged by the passport. Their form is correspondingly unstable. They look like they're 'searching'.
Sky makes the impression of having a team-wide program in place. Arguably they are the only team with the financial means to dope. The medical know-how required to pull off such a scheme shouldn't be underestimated. Sky are ahead of the game. And it's not because of warming down techniques or skin suits.

Ashenden and Kimmage know what time it is. Why don't you guys?

Here are Team Sky's audited expenses for 2011:

There is nothing there that suggests team wide doping.

 

[will10]

There is nothing there that suggests team wide doping.

Post of the day.

 

[Benotti69]

Here are Team Sky's audited expenses for 2011:

There is nothing there that suggests team wide doping.

and i bet all the other teams who had doping programs had a subheading for doping expenses 🙄

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Here are Team Sky's audited expenses for 2011:

There is nothing there that suggests team wide doping.

You are correct. A standard audit would require a separate G/L entry, and a specific line item expense directly resulting from costs related to doping.

If you examine the USPS team financials, you will see exactly the same thing. No line item expense for doping therefore no doping at USPS.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Guys like Rodriguez, Contador, Evans, Frandy, etc. make the impression of being on individual programs, comparatively restricted individual programs, due to the threat of being flagged by the passport. Their form is correspondingly unstable, peaks alternating with drops in form. They look like they're 'searching'.
Sky makes the impression of having a team-wide program in place. Arguably they are the only team with the financial means to dope at this sophisticated level. Their results are stable. The medical know-how required to pull off such a scheme shouldn't be underestimated. Sky are ahead of the game. And it's not because of warming down techniques or skin suits.

Ashenden and Kimmage know what time it is.

The BC/Sky back up machine is enormous. They can better the best support other teams muster for one or two riders - to every one on their short list for the Tour. Their 6th man is way better looked after than team B's 6th man.

Throw in Mike Rogers and Froome and maybe one or two others, doing their own thing "off piste" with an annoyed but very, blind eye turned, then the Nucleus can be very tiny indeed. Leinders could be there to "help" those outside the nucleus and he could be unaware of what they are doing every bit as much as they don't go looking to see what he was up to. And Sky can hold up their hands and say he was employed for his expertise on dealing with ingrowing toenails. A couple of other wildcard back-room staff can be employed with the same unspoken intent and there is no link back to the Nucleus. Froome just overdid it and then the USADA unraveled a load of the knitting, which they have had to dispose of.

Yates retires on Health grounds.

Sutton is the critical link. His retirement is going to be gold plated.

 

[MatParker117]

and i bet all the other teams who had doping programs had a subheading for doping expenses 🙄

Have team's caught doping ever published there accounts?

 

[sniper]

Here are Team Sky's audited expenses for 2011:

There is nothing there that suggests team wide doping.

am i missing the irony or the argument? or both?

 

[MatParker117]

am i missing the irony or the argument? or both?

I may of misread your post, been a hell of Christmas for me.

 

[will10]

Have team's caught doping ever published there accounts?

Reminds me of the (Nigerian?) Dragon's Den clip where the entrepreneur has set aside expenses for bribery.