Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Catwhoorg]

Not the winning of the TDF. This coincided with the London Olympics 2012.
I have asked for clarification from Mr Brailsford regarding BC improvements over the past 15 years, here on the forum.

They started taking sports seriously after the debacle of the Atlanta games in 1996, using lottery funding.

15 years of building (not domination) is the right sort of timeframe.

 

[MatParker117]

I do believe that's sort of the point.

Zero Tolerance!

Credit to them for firing the guys that undermined that.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Ag2R have all the details of their anti doping policy on their website including recruitment. They have also opened a sports science university.

I guess JV would suggest they haven't recruited properly because they don't win



That's ZERO tolerance.

It's not PR like Sky. It's the rules.

http://www.cyclisme.ag2rlamondiale.fr/english/anti-doping/recruitment.asp

Is this the time to note the rounded out the podium at PN with Peraud ?

Sky Garmin AG2R
The clean sweep.

 

[Tinman]

Does anyone know how Rodgers has been doing since he left Sky? I haven't seen anything at all

Michael Rogers is a great case study supporting the likelihood of team-wide doping at Sky. He has no reason to not perform at Saxo since joining. It's certainly not making Berti feel good so far.

It is also going to be a great study on whether Riis still actively supports his riders to dope. It's possible Rogers is left to dry out, with Riis checking whether he has his own program or not. As Berti's man he's going to have to perform, so we can expect a dramatic improvement from Dodgers shortly.

 

[martinvickers]

They started taking sports seriously after the debacle of the Atlanta games in 1996, using lottery funding.

15 years of building (not domination) is the right sort of timeframe.

in the 2000 Olympics there was a significant 'step change' in GB's Games success,a s the lottery money filtered through. The catalyst, at least in the media's eyes, was the kilo gold of Jason Queally, which marked the beginning of the rise of track cycling for GB - although some would have traced back to the iconoclastic figure of Boardman, his success was not part of a central BC system. Obree's brilliance was largely hidden from 'casual' sports fans because it was not Olympic.

GB won four cycling medals in that games. They also won 5 Worlds medals, including for Queely, and two younger men, wiggins and hoy. This was also a considerable leap on recent performance. The current ludicrous Olympic track dominance clearly has its roots in that year.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So Ag2R are clean then?

They're more likely to be don't ask-don't tell. That they publish all this stuff gives them much more plausible deniability if a rider then gets busted (like Houanard did), as they can quite reasonably say that it was outside of the team, and point to their strong anti-doping policies.

Sky could do similar, but they've done much more telling than showing, and their team's nature of tight control and organisation would make one guy acting on his own in his own interests harder to make believably an outlier, even if it truthfully was.

The same would be true of any team with a seemingly laissez-faire attitude to the riders' ongoing development, in comparison to those highly structured teams like Sky, however, and a team which has historically been fairly conservative when it comes to doping but has harboured a number of known or suspected dopers, such as say Movistar, would be less readily believed than Ag2r too.

 

[Catwhoorg]

in the 2000 Olympics there was a significant 'step change' in GB's Games success,a s the lottery money filtered through. The catalyst, at least in the media's eyes, was the kilo gold of Jason Queally, which marked the beginning of the rise of track cycling for GB - although some would have traced back to the iconoclastic figure of Boardman, his success was not part of a central BC system. Obree's brilliance was largely hidden from 'casual' sports fans because it was not Olympic.

GB won four cycling medals in that games. They also won 5 Worlds medals, including for Queely, and two younger men, wiggins and hoy. This was also a considerable leap on recent performance. The current ludicrous Olympic track dominance clearly has its roots in that year.

Whilst not the BC set-up I still look back as Boardman/Obree as laying the groundwork for the track success.

Whenever I'm down by Centennial Park in Atlanta (2-3 times/year), I go and find his name* carved into the stone tablets there. A reminder of where we were, and then think about where the track guys are now.

*ironically of course he won the road ITT bronze not a track medal.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And yet they left the head units on, odd.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tirreno-adriatico-2013/stage-5/photos/255625

SRM do compact cranks, so there's no reason they could not have been using SRMs. No side-on pics available to determine if they did or not.

Having the head units means they can do a mini-course summary and track elapsed distance.

 

[sittingbison]

...So now instead of having a select few (like in the 80's, maybe 2, 3 or maybe 4 at the most) riding at or below 6 watts/kg we have 4 or 5 from one team only doing it.

Which team's that then? There were only ever two of the Sky guys at those sorts of power outputs at the sharp end of the Tour stages last year...

The sad truth every day in the mountains...guess who's the little guy hidden behind Dodger?:

Wallace, hidden amongst the various Sky and Wiggo threads are the comments from Sir Wiggo (Capt Dodger just cranked out 500W so nobody could escape), Basso (at 420W I could barely hold the wheel of the Sky guys) and Dodger (I am the lightest since 16yo...best ever power...480 for 35mins up La Planche)

***and note I am paraphrasing***

Yes Tinman, totally agree Dodgers performance this year is going to be a great case study. I wait with baited breath

BTW what on earth is Froome looking at

 

[northstar]

Looking at UCI’s point system, Sky currently has 279 points. That’s 117 points more than the second place team, Blanco Pro Cycling. At this rate, it should be easy for Sky to match its total 2012 points of 1767.

UCI team standings 03-12-2013

Impressive start to the season. Too early to say Sky is dominating?

If the standings continue like this, Brailsford better be prepared for a lot more doping questions in the future.

 

[MatParker117]

The sad truth every day in the mountains...guess who's the little guy hidden behind Dodger?:

Wallace, hidden amongst the various Sky and Wiggo threads are the comments from Sir Wiggo (Capt Dodger just cranked out 500W so nobody could escape), Basso (at 420W I could barely hold the wheel of the Sky guys) and Dodger (I am the lightest since 16yo...best ever power...480 for 35mins up La Planche)

***and note I am paraphrasing***

BTW what on earth is Froome looking at

SRM Meter it's his security blanket.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

They're more likely to be don't ask-don't tell. That they publish all this stuff gives them much more plausible deniability if a rider then gets busted (like Houanard did), as they can quite reasonably say that it was outside of the team, and point to their strong anti-doping policies.

Sky could do similar, but they've done much more telling than showing, and their team's nature of tight control and organisation would make one guy acting on his own in his own interests harder to make believably an outlier, even if it truthfully was.

The same would be true of any team with a seemingly laissez-faire attitude to the riders' ongoing development, in comparison to those highly structured teams like Sky, however, and a team which has historically been fairly conservative when it comes to doping but has harboured a number of known or suspected dopers, such as say Movistar, would be less readily believed than Ag2r too.

Excellent post, as usual.

 

[Escarabajo]

Does anyone know how Rodgers has been doing since he left Sky? I haven't seen anything at all

He is not warming down after stages. His health insurance is not as good.

March 11, Stage 6: Porto Sant'Elpidio 209km

DNF Michael Rogers (Aus) Team Saxo-Tinkoff

March 10, Stage 5: Ortona - Chieti 230km

41 Michael Rogers (Aus) Team Saxo-Tinkoff 0:06:01

March 9, Stage 4: Narni - Prati di Tivo 173km

124 Michael Rogers (Aus) Team Saxo-Tinkoff @ 17:16

 

[FXDGEAR]

I've been following this thread but may have missed anyone asking the question about Joe Dombrowski likely riding the Giro this year. Joe's got amazing talent and his win in the Ciclistico d'Italia is some rationalization for bringing him to the race - but would Sky bring him if he weren't on the same program as the rest of his team? It's a grand tour and it seems that Sky would need everyone on the same page... I'm probably not posing this well but think you can understand what I'm asking.

 

[The Hitch]

I wouldnt be so hasty to dance on Dodgers grave.

Yall leaving yourselves open to a lot of legitimate attacks come June and July if Rogers starts hitting superform again.

I mean hes riding for Riis for christ sakes. Moreover all of saxo are sucking big time atm, yet Contador is still talking about how his main objective is to win the Tour.

It certainly isnt entirely out of the question that Rogers is a big part of that plan, and Saxo are all saving themselves for July. If like Richie Porte, in the service of Contador Rogers is finishing 20 minutes down on mountains in the Tour, ill join yall in laughing at the ridiculousness of it, but its best to see how this plays out first.

 

[BYOP88]

I've been following this thread but may have missed anyone asking the question about Joe Dombrowski likely riding the Giro this year. Joe's got amazing talent and his win in the Ciclistico d'Italia is some rationalization for bringing him to the race - but would Sky bring him if he weren't on the same program as the rest of his team? It's a grand tour and it seems that Sky would need everyone on the same page... I'm probably not posing this well but think you can understand what I'm asking.

No Sky are saving him for the Vuelta, so he can be the 1st American to win it

(I actually don't know what he's riding. But I am longing for us(America) to finally win the Vuelta)

 

[Tinman]

I wouldnt be so hasty to dance on Dodgers grave.

Yall leaving yourselves open to a lot of legitimate attacks come June and July if Rogers starts hitting superform again.

I mean hes riding for Riis for christ sakes. Moreover all of saxo are sucking big time atm, yet Contador is still talking about how his main objective is to win the Tour.

It certainly isnt entirely out of the question that Rogers is a big part of that plan, and Saxo are all saving themselves for July. If like Richie Porte, in the service of Contador Rogers is finishing 20 minutes down on mountains in the Tour, ill join yall in laughing at the ridiculousness of it, but its best to see how this plays out first.

Agree entirely and suspect no-one is writing off the LIKELIHOOD in fact that Dodgers will hit top form. Unless he is happy to retire at year end and is just going to milk his contract. After all, he is the roller coaster Aussie, career of up and down form like a jo-jo. Dodgers we know..., what is interesting is that it will be a good show of the new Bjarne...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The sad truth every day in the mountains...guess who's the little guy hidden behind Dodger?:

Whilst I'm not always impressed with the accuracy of claims/statements made in these parts, I am always impressed by folks' ability to find photographs. I salute you!

The key questions in respect of that photo are i) which stage? ii) where abouts in the stage? and iii) (most crucially) where did Porte and Rogers finish?

I'm not defending Sky, as I think Froome, Rogers and Wiggins range between "almost certainly dodgy" to "very suspicious". Porte only really suffers (based on 2012 performances) from guilt by association. However, it's patently obvious that Wiggins and Froome operated on a completely different level to Porte and Rogers. The latter two may well have been cranking out the claimed wattages on intermediate climbs or at the bottom of the final climb of the day, but they weren't doing it at the top of the final climb, as they'd burnt themselves before then for tactical reasons, which is why they both finished around an hour down on Wiggins in the GC.

Wiggins, Froome and all the other "Heads of State" were cranking out the watts at the top of the final climb, and this number operating at a level achieved by only the select few in the 1980s is indeed very suspicious, but Porte and Rogers were not amongst them.

I will repeat my view that there is enough genuinely suspicious performances from Sky to make a strong case, without needing to make things up, and claiming that Sky have 4 or 5 guys who are performing at the level of the best riders from the 80s is definitely making things up. They have 2 such riders: Froome and Wiggins. Which, just to emphasise, is suspicious, but it's still not 4 or 5!!

 

[sittingbison]

The sad truth every day in the mountains......

doing a thehog just for you Wallace

This picture was repeated every day in the mountains, as you say Sir Wiggo and Froomedawg kept going up the final slope when first EBH then finally Dodger and Richie peeled off. The "peleton" was always reduced to about 8 (four Sky) by Dodgers infernal tempo of about 450W (source Sir Wiggo and Basso), and lets not forget Kanstantin Sivtsov had crashed out in week 1, he was meant to be the main mountain domestique.

It begs the question what would Dodger and Richie have been able to do if it was THEM sitting in behind a couple of domestiques for hours at a time doing the heavy lifting. Methinks easily both Top 10, and Dodger possibly on the podium

There was never a single domestique from any other team capable of keeping up, and almost all the contenders of any description were also dropped...just like the pic.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And Dodger was doing his best power at his lightest weight since 16 at this time of year. And then carrying out road captain duties at the Tour.

It worked so well last year that he's completely changed his program and now is close to nowhere at the same time of the year.

 

[JimmyFingers]

They're more likely to be don't ask-don't tell. That they publish all this stuff gives them much more plausible deniability if a rider then gets busted (like Houanard did), as they can quite reasonably say that it was outside of the team, and point to their strong anti-doping policies.

Sky could do similar, but they've done much more telling than showing, and their team's nature of tight control and organisation would make one guy acting on his own in his own interests harder to make believably an outlier, even if it truthfully was.

The same would be true of any team with a seemingly laissez-faire attitude to the riders' ongoing development, in comparison to those highly structured teams like Sky, however, and a team which has historically been fairly conservative when it comes to doping but has harboured a number of known or suspected dopers, such as say Movistar, would be less readily believed than Ag2r too.

So what you are saying is Ag2R's ZTP is total PR which means they can jettison a rider Rasmussen style and blame it all on them and come out squeaky clean?

Great policy: Sky should definitely do it that way.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It begs the question what would Dodger and Richie have been able to do if it was THEM sitting in behind a couple of domestiques for hours at a time doing the heavy lifting. Methinks easily both Top 10, and Dodger possibly on the podium

I doubt the benefit of drafting uphill, where speeds are ~20kph would convert an hour deficit into a 5 minute deficit for Rogers, though he did admittedly do a fair amount of work on the flat as well.

It's all ifs, buts and maybes and as the saying goes, "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle". The fact is that Porte and Rogers finished an hour down, and almost invariably disappeared from the action shortly after the start of the final climb.

I bet if you dig deep enough, you'll find a picture of Cav leading the bunch up a climb, so you could claim that Cav was also performing at the same level as Wiggo and Froome, if one want to go "Total Hogtard".

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

There was never a single domestique from any other team capable of keeping up, and almost all the contenders of any description were also dropped...just like the pic.

Indeed. But as I've said, I'm not defending Sky and there's a lot of dodginess about their performance. My point, though, was how to consider many of the Sky armada was performing at a 1980s elite level and demonstrate that it was 2, rather than 4 or 5, based on actual performances, which are the only things that count, not what someone might have been capable of in different circumstances.

 

[will10]

Whilst I'm not always impressed with the accuracy of claims/statements made in these parts, I am always impressed by folks' ability to find photographs. I salute you!

The key questions in respect of that photo are i) which stage? ii) where abouts in the stage? and iii) (most crucially) where did Porte and Rogers finish?
/snip

That's not crucial in the slightest. Go look up where Heras, Rubiera, Azevedo, Popovych, Landis etc etc finished either on stages or in the GC on the Postal days. It has next to no relevance. Those guys were all top 5 climbers at the Tour. I don't know where Porte and Rogers finished at last year's Tour either. The fact that they finished 20th/30th/40th on GC means nothing. It's the four climbers in an elite group of 8/10 riders that's the concerning part.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

That's not crucial in the slightest. Go look up where Heras, Rubiera, Azevedo, Popovych, Landis etc etc finished either on stages or in the GC on the Postal days. It has next to no relevance. Those guys were all top 5 climbers at the Tour. I don't know where Porte and Rogers finished at last year's Tour either. The fact that they finished 20th/30th/40th on GC means nothing. It's the four climbers in an elite group of 8/10 riders that's the concerning part.

And you should mention that EBH and Knees powered the way up on the early climbs....

OTOH, Sky has a roster of very good CG riders. It´s just like in any other sports: The best team wins.
Knees, Porte, Rogers, Wiggins did all finish in T-20 in GTs with other teams. And EBH showed his talent very early and very strong. Like Moreno Moser or Sagan.
I am also doubtful of pro cyclists. I think that shows in my posts since 2009 very well. But the Sky bashing is just too much (the year before it was Voeckler, the year before it was...). I can understand Brailsford and to some point Wiggins very well. Plus i like the way Froome behaves. He just don´t talk BS like the spaniards and does his job with his cool sunglasses. A likeable guy. No matter if he came out of nothing (as you guys know, i see it not so stark. He was still young when he showed up in CG-Standings, after some difficult years).
Sky only "dominated" the TdF. But far from the train Postal had. I trust the numbers of Tucker BTW. No more suspicious than any rider in the peloton. And way more trustful than all those spaniards with very shady pasts....