Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[armchairclimber]

personally I wouldn't have used Salazar as a shining example of cleanliness...not with his own history and with his other runner Rupp (a white guy) also beating Bekele over 10000m to get 2nd.

I'm aware of all that. Again, see hypothyroidism (Rupp).

The point that I'm trying to make is that the rapid weight loss with retained muscle power and improved endurance capacity could have been delivered, within the current rules, with a doctor's diagnosis and be claimed as "clean".

 

[will10]

You haven't a clue what my specific take on SKY is.

If they are doping I want to know.I want to know what they are taking and what benefits they are getting...specifically. I want to know why, if they are on a programme of PEDs, they are riding more slowly, with lower power output than riders 5 years ago. I want to know are they the only team doping in a clean peleton? If the peleton is still broadly dirty, are SKY simply doping better? Or are they training better? If they are training better I want to know how.

What I don't do with relation to SKY or Sagan or anyone else who hasn't got a "history" is assume that their performance indicates doping....especially when it actually doesn't in empirical terms.

I loathe SKY the brand with a passion...for political reasons.

Are you sure about that? Or are you just lapping up the rhetoric that's being pumped into the cycling press at the moment?

Rasmussen was clean http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1180352#post1180352

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Ok that's interesting but they would still know what training they were doing day to day like interval training and alike (not forgetting the warm down lol). So as for the not knowing how the number crunching works,? I'm not so sure because surely as a person dependent on new contracts you'd want to maximise your own physical and earning potential. And didn't I see a Kerrison interview where he talks along the lines of telling the riders how the numbers work in a format they get. Even for a plank like Dodger?

I wasn't making any claims as to what goes on at Sky - just highlighting the implications of the "rigid" vs "dynamic" approach to training regimes. The latter is much harder to transfer precisely, as there's no set of rules to follow. You need the coach to make judgement on a daily basis in response to many factors, and the various considerations can't all be specified.

Another key point is that two individuals will response differently to the same training stimulus. The best coaches will adapt the stimulus to suit their athletes. Thus, Rogers' regime is unlikely to be optimal for anyone else at Saxo. It would be effective, for sure, but at the top end, you need to exploit every last bit of potential, and it's the personalisation of training regimes that is one of the things that distinguishes a good coach from a great one.

 

[Bexon30]

OK, let's just take one of those elements that are supposed to deliver a "marginal gain". Say, the practice of getting on the rollers for a structured warm down at the end of a stage.
Now, I don't know how many teams routinely did this before SKY came along and we started to see them at it on our screens. Vaughters suggests that it wasn't common practice.
Any 15 year old can tell you that a structured warm down after a race or vigorous session is important in returning the body gradually from a highly stressed state to a resting state and that, it significantly improves recovery. This goes for pretty much any sport. We all know that.
Given that a vital part of competing in GTs is the ability to recover from one day's efforts to deliver the following day, it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that the team which adopts this practice and does it properly might recover better and thus perform better the following day. It's obvious innit? Child's play.
So why was it derided? How many teams have followed suit? (I don't know but I'd like to know).

Frankly, I suspect the bigger gains have been made by training the riders with the best capacity for speed endurance to ride for long periods at (but not over) that aerobic capacity. A numbers game. That's what it looks like to me. In much the same way as Salazar figured that for Mo Farah to beat Bekele and win Olympic 5/10k gold, he would have to be able to run the last 400 in under 55 seconds, SKY have figured what sort of sustained pace and power is required to control GT stages.

Perhaps they require PEDs to deliver that. The numbers say "not necessary".

(Note: see hypothyroidism thread. I wonder how many SKY riders are being treated for hypothyroidism).

It's a bit vague to me. How exactly is that a marginal gain? We all know what we're seeing Sky out powering everyone else. I understand Sky wont wish to divulge information on marginal gains (although they do when it suits) but their ex riders have seen and done it so any advancements would now be rendered the norm. So where is the dominance coming from?

Try and be specific for me I would like to understand myself list 2/3 marginal gain techniques they use on training professional athletes not including warming down please (we've been there enough IMO).

 

[armchairclimber]

Are you sure about that? Or are you just lapping up the rhetoric that's being pumped into the cycling press at the moment?

Rasmussen was clean http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1180352#post1180352

When the SoS guys or Ashenden say "these results are impossible without PEDs" then I'm fully onside.

As you may have noticed from my last few posts, I'm certainly open to the idea that there may be something afoot.

 

[BroDeal]

Perhaps they require PEDs to deliver that. The numbers say "not necessary".

Just because riders like LeMond and Mottet could do those numbers naturally does not mean a schlub like Froome should be able to.

 

[Ferminal]

Let me know where Tucker said Rasmussen/Contador were doping based on climb times.

 

[Lanark]

This discussion isn't really usefull. Servais Knaven already said last year, they don't do anything different than other teams. Their riders are just more talented than other riders. Yep, Wiggins, Froome and Porte just happen to be more talented than Contador and Nibali, they just hid it really well in their first pro years.

Not even their sports directors believe in marginal gains.

 

[ebandit]

absurd

This is an utterly absurd post.

Avoid following "traditional ideas"?

.

the absurd part is your selective questioning of my post

DB stated avoid traditional ideas JUST because that's the way it's always
been done without evaluating and tasting what's best

an example is team dinners on tours...............if it's the optimum time to eat
to allow best digestion iriders will eat alone

Mark L

 

[ianfra]

When the SoS guys or Ashenden say "these results are impossible without PEDs" then I'm fully onside.

As you may have noticed from my last few posts, I'm certainly open to the idea that there may be something afoot.

Prejudice personified.

 

[ebandit]

train

I wasn't making any claims as to what goes on at Sky - just highlighting the implications of the "rigid" vs "dynamic" approach to training regimes. The latter is much harder to transfer precisely, as there's no set of rules to follow. You need the coach to make judgement on a daily basis in response to many factors, and the various considerations can't all be specified.

Another key point is that two individuals will response differently to the same training stimulus. The best coaches will adapt the stimulus to suit their athletes.

one example i noted was that team training went training as a team........riders with coaching staff who constantly guided and evaluated
performance

whereas contador was training at the same location just with 2 team mates

Mark L

 

[ebandit]

you sure

Funny how everyone is in agreement that sky are doping, except for the british posters. What does that say?

is everyone in agreement? a certain number of posters here in the clinic are convinced but it's not certain

again it's nothing to do with being british but about the ambitions of a sporting team / sponsor

i have doubts but continue to hope..............if indeed team sky are doping
may they be outed today

Mark L

 

[armchairclimber]

one example i noted was that team training went training as a team........riders with coaching staff who constantly guided and evaluated
performance

whereas contador was training at the same location just with 2 team mates

Mark L

The video posted yesterday showed a marked difference between Schleck's group and the two pods of Sky riders that motored past. Ok, they were playing to camera but I wouldn't be too chuffed with it if I was the sponsor's media co-ordinator.

 

[xcleigh]

Just because riders like LeMond and Mottet could do those numbers naturally does not mean a schlub like Froome should be able to.

Upon what are you basing your opinion that Froome is a shlub? Watching him on the TV or do you actually have any details that lead you to that view? Not saying he is or isn't but just would like to know how you reached that conclusion.

 

[spalco]

Upon what are you basing your opinion that Froome is a shlub? Watching him on the TV or do you actually have any details that lead you to that view? Not saying he is or isn't but just would like to know how you reached that conclusion.

Well, I like Froome, and I sincerely hope he's clean, but I suppose BroDeal is referring to this or some similar metric...
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=5789

 

[sittingbison]

Gentle(wo)men,
would it be possible to not revisit the "Froome was a nobody/Froome is fantastic" arguments for the tenth time? We all know about the the '09 Giro swerve, '10 bilharzia, '11 Sir Dave napkin assessment, '11 Veulta transformation, '12 early season relapse to TdF/Olympic glory bla bla bla

cheers
bison

 

[workingclasshero]

A numbers game. That's what it looks like to me. In much the same way as Salazar figured that for Mo Farah to beat Bekele and win Olympic 5/10k gold, he would have to be able to run the last 400 in under 55 seconds, SKY have figured what sort of sustained pace and power is required to control GT stages.

are you joking, what a very odd statement.

Bekele had been winning almost every race with a 53 second lap for the last ten years, anyone would understand that to beat him you'd have to run faster

yeah, THAT's the secret, Salazar figured out "the numbers game"

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

All I see is a team 5-10% faster than any other team...

No one to date has been able to explain this fact.

No-one can explain this because it isn't a fact. It hasn't happened. Or did I miss Wiggo and Froome putting several minutes into the other podium contenders in the mountains in last year's Tour?

 

[armchairclimber]

are you joking, what a very odd statement.

Bekele had been winning almost every race with a 53 second lap for the last ten years, anyone would understand that to beat him you'd have to run faster

yeah, THAT's the secret, Salazar figured out "the numbers game"

My mistake, it was from memory. I think Salazar actually did say 51-52 seconds...but the point is the same.
"Farah says he suffered in those final metres in South Korea because he had a "lack of confidence and a lack of understanding" about how to handle a sprint finish. "Now we are doing a lot more work with weights, trying to become more explosive." When he lost to Jeilan, Farah's final lap took 53 seconds. He says he will need to do it in "51 or 52 seconds" to win gold in London." Quote from BBC.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Its hard to imagine where they would draw the line and say enough is enough. They dont seem worried about what they have done so far so why not just go full *** and get two riders on the podium in all 3 GT's.

Going 1-2 in the giro and 1-2-3 in the tour and Henao or Porte winning the vuelta seems very doable right now.

The jimmyfingers and mastervickers wont change their minds no matter how silly they look, so why not.

Just wondering, could you spell out what my position is? Because I would like to know before I look 'silly'. Wouldn't want that, would I?

 

[Benotti69]

Just wondering, could you spell out what my position is? Because I would like to know before I look 'silly'. Wouldn't want that, would I?

way too late for that.......

 

[xcleigh]

Well, I like Froome, and I sincerely hope he's clean, but I suppose BroDeal is referring to this or some similar metric...
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=5789

Ok thank you. I'll check that out.

 

[JimmyFingers]

way too late for that.......

Right on cue with the petty insults, I wouldn't have it any other way. You stay classy

 

[Benotti69]

Right on cue with the petty insults, I wouldn't have it any other way. You stay classy

And unlike Sky I dont performance enhancements to do it


ps it was not an insult, but then Sky are very sensitive, side effect from the marginal gains.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I don't think it's funny that he had one, having recently had a couple myself, but the irony, of this little snippet is making me laugh, for some prolonged period of time...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiernan-locke-ready-of-ardennes-campaign
“I’ve had the most interrupted start to a season that I’ve ever had. I’m usually pretty robust but I had a virus and had to pull out of Paris-Nice and then during Pais Vasco with two days to do I had the worst saddle sore. I had a few days off on antibiotics so it’s not been ideal, I can’t lie,” he told Cyclingnews.

Ah Geert Leinders, you are sorely missed.

Also: rider with typically robust constitution joins team Sky where they teach him to wash his hands properly amidst a myriad other marginal gains, have much more money for good health care and careful training staff and ... he falls sick. In fact it's the worst start to the season he has ever had.