Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[meat puppet]

Re:

You take Puccio, Rosa, Moscon, Lopez and whoever you want from Sky, throw them in another team and they will get dropped by a pace like they did today. How is it possible that no team in the world can replicate this 400W+ train? By the way "pseudoscientists" calculated Froome at 6.67 W/kg for 11 min. today.

Well performance implies physiology, so either Sky have an exclusive, non transferable and legit means of attaining those outputs for a number of riders or an illegit one.

The legit one would essentially have to be a training regime. I do not believe it could be non transferable when riders switch teams.

This leaves the illegit option, imho.

 

[Parker]

Re:

You take Puccio, Rosa, Moscon, Lopez and whoever you want from Sky, throw them in another team and they will get dropped by a pace like they did today. How is it possible that no team in the world can replicate this 400W+ train? By the way "pseudoscientists" calculated Froome at 6.67 W/kg for 11 min. today.

They did get dropped

Rosa +5.07
Moscon +5.07
Puccio +12.14
Lopez +18.49

They're not following wheels, trying to hang on. They're riding to exhaustion as far up the climb as they can get. On another team they probably come in only two minutes down with the likes of Polanc and Stetina

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Re:

You take Puccio, Rosa, Moscon, Lopez and whoever you want from Sky, throw them in another team and they will get dropped by a pace like they did today. How is it possible that no team in the world can replicate this 400W+ train? By the way "pseudoscientists" calculated Froome at 6.67 W/kg for 11 min. today.

They did get dropped

Rosa +5.07
Moscon +5.07
Puccio +12.14
Lopez +18.49

They're not following wheels, trying to hang on. They're riding to exhaustion as far up the climb as they can get. On another team they probably come in only two minutes down with the likes of Polanc and Stetina

Exactly. You have to think of Sky like North Korea - all for the Dear Leader, except even the Dear Leader is skinny.

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

You take Puccio, Rosa, Moscon, Lopez and whoever you want from Sky, throw them in another team and they will get dropped by a pace like they did today. How is it possible that no team in the world can replicate this 400W+ train? By the way "pseudoscientists" calculated Froome at 6.67 W/kg for 11 min. today.

They did get dropped

Rosa +5.07
Moscon +5.07
Puccio +12.14
Lopez +18.49

They're not following wheels, trying to hang on. They're riding to exhaustion as far up the climb as they can get. On another team they probably come in only two minutes down with the likes of Polanc and Stetina

Eh don't spoil the UK postal narrative by pointing out the obvious

 

[meat puppet]

Re: Re:

You take Puccio, Rosa, Moscon, Lopez and whoever you want from Sky, throw them in another team and they will get dropped by a pace like they did today. How is it possible that no team in the world can replicate this 400W+ train? By the way "pseudoscientists" calculated Froome at 6.67 W/kg for 11 min. today.

They did get dropped

Rosa +5.07
Moscon +5.07
Puccio +12.14
Lopez +18.49

They're not following wheels, trying to hang on. They're riding to exhaustion as far up the climb as they can get. On another team they probably come in only two minutes down with the likes of Polanc and Stetina

Eh don't spoil the UK postal narrative by pointing out the obvious

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

 

[MartinGT]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

So when other teams try and emulate it, Sky have seem to have zero issues with staying on the wheel.

Why?

IMO I dont think the Sky team at the recent Tour was anything special. They had Kwia who was beyond human in most of the stages and if he had been given the support I am sure he could have podiumed if not won it the way he was riding!

 

[Benotti69]

Anyone trying to defend UKPostal train is trolling. We had this for years with Armstrong's fans giving the same old excuses. Big budget, specially train for GTs, strong riders, yada yada..........

 

[hrotha]

Well, US Postal wasn't ridiculous because they had Heras, Rubiera and Azevedo. They were ridiculous because they had Hincapie and Armstrong. Same applies to Sky IMO.

 

[StryderHells]

Re:

Anyone trying to defend UKPostal train is trolling. We had this for years with Armstrong's fans giving the same old excuses. Big budget, specially train for GTs, strong riders, yada yada..........

While some might be trolling I believe a good portion of Sky fans believe what they post, we had a big enough gap between US Postal and the rise of Sky for new fans of the sport to not really know what those US Postal years were like.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

Well, US Postal wasn't ridiculous because they had Heras, Rubiera and Azevedo. They were ridiculous because they had Hincapie and Armstrong. Same applies to Sky IMO.

I've always found Azevedo to be very suspicious. But maybe someone can convince me that there were legitimate reasons why a rider with the ability to finish top-10 in GT's while riding in support did not move abroad until he turned 27.

 

[PhiLiz]

Re: Re:

Well, US Postal wasn't ridiculous because they had Heras, Rubiera and Azevedo. They were ridiculous because they had Hincapie and Armstrong. Same applies to Sky IMO.

I've always found Azevedo to be very suspicious. But maybe someone can convince me that there were legitimate reasons why a rider with the ability to finish top-10 in GT's while riding in support did not move abroad until he turned 27.

Not making any excuses about weather he was doping but he was always seen as psychologically week and known to ghost at the most crucial moments. Even in Portugal. Plus, at the time Portuguese teams were paying really high wages and had good schedules.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Well, US Postal wasn't ridiculous because they had Heras, Rubiera and Azevedo. They were ridiculous because they had Hincapie and Armstrong. Same applies to Sky IMO.

I've always found Azevedo to be very suspicious. But maybe someone can convince me that there were legitimate reasons why a rider with the ability to finish top-10 in GT's while riding in support did not move abroad until he turned 27.

Well yeah, obviously most everybody from that era at that level was guilty, but my point is that US Postal didn't turn him into a superdomestique: they bought a quality helper by throwing money at him. That did happen then, that does happen now, and it is not particularly suspicious in itself.

In the case of Sky, people have this totally wrong (IMO) idea that everybody who goes to Sky performs way better than before, and everybody who leaves is crap. This idea that Sky will transform anyone into a machine. Far from it. Sky, if you ask me, have always been a very straightforward example of a team with an inner sancta santorum or an A-team/B-team dynamic, and most of these domestiques stay more or less at the same level upon joining Sky.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

Just as US Postal did when they signed the likes of Heras, Rubiera, Savoldelli, Acevedo, Landis, Ekimov etc, etc who we all know were as pure as the driven snow...

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

Just as US Postal did when they signed the likes of Heras, Rubiera, Savoldelli, Acevedo, Landis, Ekimov etc, etc who we all know were as pure as the driven snow...

the key is: dope as much as you want, just dont claim "I AM CLEAN" and it will be ok

oh wait! Nibali said he´s the flagbrearer of clean cycling in 2014, nobody noticed...

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

Just as US Postal did when they signed the likes of Heras, Rubiera, Savoldelli, Acevedo, Landis, Ekimov etc, etc who we all know were as pure as the driven snow...

the key is: dope as much as you want, just dont claim "I AM CLEAN" and it will be ok

oh wait! Nibali said he´s the flagbrearer of clean cycling in 2014, nobody noticed...

I noticed, and haven't liked him since.

He's a hypocrite (grew up with a Liquigas team that was mass doping, with Basso as his mentor, then switched mentors to Alexadner Vinokourov)

I will never forget that fraudulent journo who writes all the articles for velonews writing "there are real reasons for believing Nibali won the Giro clean" and then had a picture of Nibali with Vinokourov holding the trophy

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

Just as US Postal did when they signed the likes of Heras, Rubiera, Savoldelli, Acevedo, Landis, Ekimov etc, etc who we all know were as pure as the driven snow...

the key is: dope as much as you want, just dont claim "I AM CLEAN" and it will be ok

oh wait! Nibali said he´s the flagbrearer of clean cycling in 2014, nobody noticed...

I noticed, and haven't liked him since.

He's a hypocrite (grew up with a Liquigas team that was mass doping, with Basso as his mentor, then switched mentors to Alexadner Vinokourov)

I will never forget that fraudulent journo who writes all the articles for velonews writing "there are real reasons for believing Nibali won the Giro clean" and then had a picture of Nibali with Vinokourov holding the trophy

His mentor was always the same, not Basso, nor Vino. It was dottore Ferrari all the time...

And Froome with the trophy alongside Brailsford ain't very different. Time will show

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

So when other teams try and emulate it, Sky have seem to have zero issues with staying on the wheel.

Why?

IMO I dont think the Sky team at the recent Tour was anything special. They had Kwia who was beyond human in most of the stages and if he had been given the support I am sure he could have podiumed if not won it the way he was riding!

Of course they were missing who was meant to be Froome's lieutenant in the mountains, Thomas, and Landa had the Giro in his legs, although he certainly did not ride like it. Even with a diminished team they rode superbly for Froome.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Anyone trying to defend UKPostal train is trolling. We had this for years with Armstrong's fans giving the same old excuses. Big budget, specially train for GTs, strong riders, yada yada..........

While some might be trolling I believe a good portion of Sky fans believe what they post, we had a big enough gap between US Postal and the rise of Sky for new fans of the sport to not really know what those US Postal years were like.

They should all be introduced to youtube. I think though, that they just don't want to believe it or see it.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

So when other teams try and emulate it, Sky have seem to have zero issues with staying on the wheel.

Why?

IMO I dont think the Sky team at the recent Tour was anything special. They had Kwia who was beyond human in most of the stages and if he had been given the support I am sure he could have podiumed if not won it the way he was riding!

Of course they were missing who was meant to be Froome's lieutenant in the mountains, Thomas, and Landa had the Giro in his legs, although he certainly did not ride like it. Even with a diminished team they rode superbly for Froome.

Don't forget Poels.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

The idea of a train is to go very hard and then drop. The original question was why other teams dont seem remotely as capable in setting up similar trains that consist of riders hammering out a very high output for a while and, wait for it, then dropping like flies as they are supposed to.

This is a legit question, no need to deflect it.

Other teams do when they're the strongest team in the race. But more generally as Sky have the best stage racer most of their squad is centered around this strategy so they recruit and train accordingly. It's a strategy they even use for lesser riders like Thomas, often doing other teams' work for them. The peloton have almost become conditioned into expecting Sky to lead.

And they have one of the biggest budgets.

So when other teams try and emulate it, Sky have seem to have zero issues with staying on the wheel.

Why?

IMO I dont think the Sky team at the recent Tour was anything special. They had Kwia who was beyond human in most of the stages and if he had been given the support I am sure he could have podiumed if not won it the way he was riding!

Of course they were missing who was meant to be Froome's lieutenant in the mountains, Thomas, and Landa had the Giro in his legs, although he certainly did not ride like it. Even with a diminished team they rode superbly for Froome.

Don't forget Poels.

I realized it later but you beat me to it!

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.climbing-records.com/2017/08/team-sky-storms-to-andorra.html

 

[pastronef]

Re:

http://www.climbing-records.com/2017/08/team-sky-storms-to-andorra.html

Rabassa: 30 riders peloton. thirty. I thought you meant Sky team went on a breakaway and let them all there

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

http://www.climbing-records.com/2017/08/team-sky-storms-to-andorra.html

Rabassa: 30 riders peloton. thirty. I thought you meant Sky team went on a breakaway and let them all there

Even more impressive dragging that many riders that fast over Rabassa!

 

[Cycle Chic]

So Wout Poels has morphed into Froome. He now does the stem staring and manic leg spinnning while seated - even out climbing Contador who was out of the saddle on stage 6.