Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[mastersracer]

Not criticizing you, but just to put some information out there:

was in a rush before - re AICAR, it has sparked interest because it modulates AMPK activity. It's an excercise mimetic because exercise also targets AMPK. However, it is not even clear whether AICAR in human trials actually effects AMPK activity - and null results have been reported (5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide 1-beta-D-ribofuranoside acutely stimulates skeletal muscle 2-deoxyglucose uptake in healthy men). The other results in that study were modest. There has never been any demonstration that AICAR has any effect on already highly trained/training athletes. There are also lots of over the counter non-banned substances that target AMPK.

When Ron Evans was doing his work with it, he contacted anti-doping agencies as a matter of due diligence. It was put on the banned list because of its potential to be abused, but never because it was shown to be efficacious (there are a lot of similar substances on the banned list). Of course, once a substance gets on the list, interest goes way up on it. Ironically, bodybuilders have a keen interest in AICAR (because they don't like aerobic exercise...) despite the fact that AICAR has catabolic effects!

 

[Fergoose]

Martin was 24 , it's natural that he improves, Wiggins is 32 and was a time trial world champ (indoors) ten years ago.

Yeah, plus Martin only shed a 2-5 kilos for that year depending on where you read. Still, it does show less weight does not necessarily mean less power in every circumstance. That isn't written in stone.

I think the losing weight / retaining power argument is probably the strongest one for casting aspertions on Wiggins if folk are that way inclined. But he was rake thin in the TdF 2009 and produced a very good ITT, despite it being in the third week (and the book on Wiggins is he fades in the third week, so it’ll be interesting to see if he is dominant in week 3 this year). So I don't personally think this is a Sky issue if his ITT ability was broadly comparable when he was with Garmin in 2009.

 

[hrotha]

Plus, Tony Martin was a 7 in that Tour.

 

[MonteZoncolan]

You're right, obviously being a rider on the Tour de France, he has no place at the end of a stage.

I'm not so sure...
This is okay!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FikzgWE3t0A

Let them show anger!

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I'm not so sure...
This is okay!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FikzgWE3t0A

Let them show anger!

And this is relevant to most of us doubters because?

 

[PedalPusher]

Have you actually checked the average speed of this TT?

48.3kmh is not the TT of a lifetime, not even close. More likely is that Cancellara had an off day, as did Tony Martin.

Oh really? On flats it's about 32mph, he avg 30mph with a good long steady climb.

I would say when you out ride the two BEST TT in the world, it raises an eye. FC didn't think he had a bad day, neither did TM except for a flat, and still had a great time.

 

[Maxiton]

As someone said in the Wigans thread:

Suspicions are being raised everywhere:
http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/07/wiggins-winning-ways/

(The Red Kite Prayer article linked above puts things concisely.)


Sky today announced that they "will not defend third place on the podium":

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky-wont-defend-third-place-at-tour-de-france

I wonder if the word has come down to back off a bit and not put two men on the podium, for fear it might look . . . more bad than good? I further wonder if the original plan was to put three men on the podium, before Siutsou had to abandon? As things stand right now it would have been within their capabilities.

Now that would have been awesome! Three Sky riders on the Tour de France podium.

Without one friend, above all foes, Britannia give the world repose.

 

[Caruut]

Sky don't even have the saving grace of cool kits and glasses.

 

[Maxiton]

Sky don't even have the saving grace of cool kits and glasses.

Yeah, that was some awesome kit. Love those Desert Rat glasses. And I have a Mapei cap I just adore.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The mountain stages are going to finish like this, only with Evans playing Garzelli's part:

Actually, that would be pretty funny.

I tell you what, if Wiggins came out for the next stage with a Livestrong wristband, that would be amazing. He's known for having a slightly obtuse sense of humour, that would be epic trolling of the lot of us, both the cynics and the idealists. It almost needs to happen.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't understand why people think the Colombians haven't improved at Sky, Uran managed a 7th in a GT, having previously never been in the top twenty, while Henao was the first rider to top ten in his debut GT since the notoriously clean Andy Schleck. It's not as dramatic as the Wiggins and Froome, but both have them are having their best ever season.

A guy who at 23 was finishing just behind Basso on mtts - the best test for climbers as tactics play a far smaller role, and was with the heads of state on several major mountain stages in last years tour, came 7th in a gt won by hejsdal, podiumed by Rodriguez and De Gendt.

I would not say that is that big an improvement.

As for Henao and the Schleck comparison, Andy Schleck came 2nd in his first gt and was 22. Henao is what, 25(?) and came 10th.

Didnt Gesink finish top 10 in his first gt btw. And I think guys like Nibali would have top 10d in their first if they left it till 25.

 

[ElChingon]

As someone said in the Wigans thread:

(The Red Kite Prayer article linked above puts things concisely.)

Sky today announced that they "will not defend third place on the podium":

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky-wont-defend-third-place-at-tour-de-france

I wonder if the word has come down to back off a bit and not put two men on the podium, for fear it might look . . . more bad than good? I further wonder if the original plan was to put three men on the podium, before Siutsou had to abandon? As things stand right now it would have been within their capabilities.

Now that would have been awesome! Three Sky riders on the Tour de France podium.

Without one friend, above all foes, Britannia give the world repose.

Well it would be dumb of them to not keep their options open till the end at least. Having two in the podium spots is good in case something happens, assuming they want one of their teammates to win? I know there is a lot of finger pointing but at the end of the day its about who wins it not who placed in it and not covering their bases because of rumor and innuendo is pretty dumb.

If their ship is sailing on the up and up then they should have no concerns how many of their riders are in contention. What next, other teams sand bagging to have select teams/riders fail due to rumors.

 

[Maxiton]

The mountain stages are going to finish like this, only with Evans playing Garzelli's part:

Actually, that would be pretty funny.

Agreed, it would be pretty funny. And it has the added virtue of being very likely to happen, unless Evans collapses.

I tell you what, if Wiggins came out for the next stage with a Livestrong wristband, that would be amazing. He's known for having a slightly obtuse sense of humour, that would be epic trolling of the lot of us, both the cynics and the idealists. It almost needs to happen.

He's wearing it now. It's a metaphorical wristband. Bradley Wiggins is livingstrong, and why not? But, yeah, it would be kind of cool if he actually put one on.

Well it would be dumb of them to not keep their options open till the end at least. Having two in the podium spots is good in case something happens, assuming they want one of their teammates to win? I know there is a lot of finger pointing but at the end of the day its about who wins it not who placed in it and not covering their bases because of rumor and innuendo is pretty dumb.

If their ship is sailing on the up and up then they should have no concerns how many of their riders are in contention. What next, other teams sand bagging to have select teams/riders fail due to rumors.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Like I said, I think it would have been cool to have three guys from Sky on the podium. If you're going to go, go big. And anyway, if you read the linked article, the Sky guy says they're sticking with Wiggins "for now". And that if anything happens to him, Froome is "more than capable of winning the Tour." So they have to keep Froome very close; it's not like they have a choice. And as you say, why wouldn't they?

 

[ElChingon]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Like I said, I think it would have been cool to have three guys from Sky on the podium. If you're going to go, go big. And anyway, if you read the linked article, the Sky guy says they're sticking with Wiggins "for now". And that if anything happens to him, Froome is "more than capable of winning the Tour." So they have to keep Froome very close; it's not like they have a choice. And as you say, why wouldn't they?

Not shooting but piling on, well sort of. Yea, I know it might smell to high water (or what ever the saying is) but I still remember those team dominating teams all on the podium, can they do it? I always thought it was the best team tactic, attack en mass and guarantee the team gets the win.

 

[Maxiton]

Not shooting but piling on, well sort of. Yea, I know it might smell to high water (or what ever the saying is) but I still remember those team dominating teams all on the podium, can they do it? I always thought it was the best team tactic, attack en mass and guarantee the team gets the win.

No wonder you're always hiding from the UCI. Just make a generous contribution to Pat's offshore retirement fund. Hiding is for the small teams.

 

[thehog]

The mountain stages are going to finish like this, only with Evans playing Garzelli's part:

Actually, that would be pretty funny.

I tell you what, if Wiggins came out for the next stage with a Livestrong wristband, that would be amazing. He's known for having a slightly obtuse sense of humour, that would be epic trolling of the lot of us, both the cynics and the idealists. It almost needs to happen.

Another difference between Froome/Wiggins and the other riders is that they don't even seem to give 100%.

They destroy the others without even destroying themselves. Froome was very fresh after he finished the TT. On the mountain stage he had been pulling for a long long time and then when Evans speeds up he just takes his wheel and at the end casually slides past him. It simply does not make sense.


Wiggins didn't even seem to take any risks in his TT, while cancellara was giving everything. Wiggins wins by almost a minute! After his TT you see him (Wiggins) walking like he's walking on the beach or something, so relaxed, didn't even look tired. It just doesn't feel right...

 

[joe_papp]

Does anyone else worry that there might be some doping going on at SKY? The way the team emulated USPS during the height of the Armstrong era might be random, or it could be cause for concern. I don't think any team would be so crazy as to implement a team-wide program of charging in 2012, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for an clique to have formed w/in the team that handled business outside of official channels.

All I know is it's worrying to see a guy and his henchmen begin to dominate the Tour in the manner of Armstrong.

Hope that it's just coincidence...

Note: I'm fully aware that 1/3 of a Tour doesn't equal 7 Tours won, but you know what I mean - seeing those Sky boys together whilst the others were isolated and swinging, pulling pins...it immediately did not compute and caused flashbacks. The only thing missing was Cav' taking 5-10km pulls on the front...

 

[Ripper]

Does anyone else worry that there might be some doping going on at SKY? The way the team emulated USPS during the height of the Armstrong era might be random, or it could be cause for concern. I don't think any team would be so crazy as to implement a team-wide program of charging in 2012, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for an clique to have formed w/in the team that handled business outside of official channels.

All I know is it's worrying to see a guy and his henchmen begin to dominate the Tour in the manner of Armstrong.

Hope that it's just coincidence...

Hol y f*ck Joe, did you even glance at the 1,740 posts in this thread before asking this question? Or are you being sarcastic? Folks are obviously wondering ...

 

[joe_papp]

wtf?

Surprised you have'nt seen the posts.

Right from after Saturday's stage onwards there has been a flood load of posts with talk of the exact same suspicion you are on about.

I try to keep the blinders on just like the next cycling fan, but if memory serves me, what I saw Wiggo do to Cadel in the TT yesterday it took him an additional 10km(+) to do to Evans in the Dauphiné - which would mean that he's on better form now than he was then, when he was on better form than when he was at Romandie, when he was on better form than his Paris-Nice condition.

Ummm, marginal gains?

But I'm even more confused when I think of this character Froome, who seems to have gone from not being able to keep Wiggins in sight in the TT's to simply smashing the TT's and finishing a measured...what - half a minute or so behind his leader (and it looked like he soft-pedaled in-tune to instructions from the car in order to ensure the existence of a "plausible" gap, after also winning a road stage in which he made Evans look silly)?

 

[observer]

Although I'm started to worry about the possibility of doping, but we haven't got to the high mountains yet. If he loses a few minutes, then my worry might disperse, but if he continues to dominate along with Froome.......

 

[mastersracer]

would be better to wait to see how the mountain stages go. So far the power estimates from stage 7 are not physiologically unreasonable. Wiggins was left vulnerable on stage 9 - the Tour is by no means over.

 

[Maxiton]

Does anyone else worry that there might be some doping going on at SKY? The way the team emulated USPS during the height of the Armstrong era might be random, or it could be cause for concern. I don't think any team would be so crazy as to implement a team-wide program of charging in 2012, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for an clique to have formed w/in the team that handled business outside of official channels.

All I know is it's worrying to see a guy and his henchmen begin to dominate the Tour in the manner of Armstrong.

Hope that it's just coincidence...

Note: I'm fully aware that 1/3 of a Tour doesn't equal 7 Tours won, but you know what I mean - seeing those Sky boys together whilst the others were isolated and swinging, pulling pins...it immediately did not compute and caused flashbacks. The only thing missing was Cav' taking 5-10km pulls on the front...

Is it warm under that rock where you've been sleeping, Joe?

 

[filipo]

"Questions on the Rémi Di Grégorio affair and Twitter doping suspicions were deemed strictly off limits, with journalists curtly warned that any attempt to raise either matter would be cut off immediately." --Cyclingnews article about Sky's rest day press conference, July 10, 2012

"We needed to have the press be our friend ... We wanted them to ask the questions we want to answer so that they report the news the way we want it to be reported." --Sharron Angle, during an interview with Fox News Channel's Carl Cameron, Aug. 2, 2010

..........

 

[Hotbrakes]

We need the guy with the big syringe running beside the Sky train on one of the climbs. He also needs to be wearing a Murdoch mask.

 

[joe_papp]

would be better to wait to see how the mountain stages go. So far the power estimates from stage 7 are not physiologically unreasonable. Wiggins was left vulnerable on stage 9 - the Tour is by no means over.

Right and that's why I made sure to note in my original post that 1/3 of a Tour (and even more specifically, just a few stages) doesn't equal world domination for 7 years or even a season.

Is it warm under that rock where you've been sleeping, Joe?

LOL.

Really, I'm loathe to insinuate there might be doping in a team to which I've no direct connection and about which I can't speak authoritatively, based on a lack of first-hand experience (w/ the riders in said team). I mean, I really do not like to suggest something might be awry, let alone allege bad behavior. It's important for my own credibility not to be reckless and/or cast aspersions on the ethics and abilities of riders who I don't know, and it's of value to me not to be seen as someone whose first reaction is that of a cynic, or a bitter ex-whatever.

But bloody hell! What was Wiggo on about slagging-off the punters who've every reason to be cynical (I'm practicing talking like what I imagine the British sound like)!? Did I really read him foaming at the mouth about how internet posters must be lazy and ineffective in the real world if they dare to criticize him or look askance at his results? The lady doth protest too much! You'd never hear Vino lose his cool like that and Wiggo could learn a thing or two from the Golden Eagle about how to effectively deny the existence of any unpleasant past history (personal or otherwise). At least be practical - and polite - about things! As reported once in VeloNation:

Vinokourov has no guarantees that he will be able to take part in the race. Astana are expected to be there, but he was excluded from the event in 2007 due to blood doping and could yet find he is persona non grata.

He continues to deny those charges, but has indicated that he might apologise to the Tour de France organisers if it helps ensure that he is in the race.

“I’m here to prove that Vinokourov has won [in the past] and won without doping.”

and:

He assumes race organizers, the Amaury Sports Organization [ASO], will allow him to take the start this July: "Have my issues with the organizers of the Tour [de France] been solved? I have served my sentence with my suspension," Vinokourov concluded.

BTW: the mood instability and emotional fragility on display by Wiggo this year can sometimes be a by-product of PED-use, especially testosterone, EPO, Hgh, corticosteroids and blood transfusions...