Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Wallace and Gromit]

Thanks for the research.

Yup, sure looks like Sky cut way back on race days compared to others.

Myth: Busted.

Dave.

More like you mythinterpreted the comment about cutting back on the number of racing days rather than busting any myths. The logical interpretation would be that the Sky riders cut back relative to their 2010/2011 programmes, not relative to riders on other teams.

My perception is that Wiggo raced more this year than last year prior to the Tour, though I'll leave it to the mythbusters to do the arithmetic to confirm one way or another.

 

[the big ring]

More like you mythinterpreted the comment about cutting back on the number of racing days rather than busting any myths. The logical interpretation would be that the Sky riders cut back relative to their 2010/2011 programmes, not relative to riders on other teams.

My perception is that Wiggo raced more this year than last year prior to the Tour, though I'll leave it to the mythbusters to do the arithmetic to confirm one way or another.

No. Myth busted as in - it does not differntiate Sky from the other GC contenders, is not unique to their training program, and should not be used as a reason for their performance vs other GC contenders.

The whole argument leveled by Sky is: WE DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY, MORE GOODER, AGGREGATING MARGINAL GAINS.

Those marginal gains include post-stage warm downs and less racing days. Wiggo raced more days than Cadel. Myth busted.

 

[TheGeneral]

Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins can still improve, warns Team Sky principal Dave Brailsford.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...arns-Team-Sky-principal-Dave-Brailsford.html#

 

[taiwan]

More like you mythinterpreted the comment about cutting back on the number of racing days rather than busting any myths. The logical interpretation would be that the Sky riders cut back relative to their 2010/2011 programmes, not relative to riders on other teams.

My perception is that Wiggo raced more this year than last year prior to the Tour, though I'll leave it to the mythbusters to do the arithmetic to confirm one way or another.

Is that an error?

I was looking for things they were doing that other teams weren't that would potentially give an advantage, and trying to determine whether the article was bunk. No I suppose the article wasn't about their innovations over other teams. FWIW I think 2010 was 44, 2011 was 47, 2012 was 30 racing days pre-Tour. So the article is accurate in that sense.

This is not the most interesting tangent to the thread.

 

[Franklin]

Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins can still improve, warns Team Sky principal Dave Brailsford.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...arns-Team-Sky-principal-Dave-Brailsford.html#

He could lose a few more kilo and gain a few more watts

 

[cineteq]

He could lose a few more kilo and gain a few more watts

he will prove science wrong LOL. can't believe sky is so stupid saying that after all the scrutiny at the tour, even if it's true just shut fcku up.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Wiggo raced more days than Cadel. Myth busted.

Again, it's nothing to do with other teams. Sky aren't claiming they raced less than other teams; they are claiming they raced less than they did in previous years.

Note that I'm not saying Sky's marginal gains theory is valid. I was just pointing out a logical flaw in another post.

 

[xcleigh]

Why was this hidden from their site? Why is Leinders not listed?

Is it beyond suspicion (as that is exactly what we are talking about)? Or would you disagree with Wiggins himself that this is bad form indeed



He climbs better than before, so instead of second guessing why not take his statement at face value? Let's repeat that... to explain this one you need to reinterpret his pretty clear statement.



Actually, he accused riders who have a lot less against them than himself (Sastre).



What a nice straw man you put up. Once again... I see reason to suspect Sky. Brad would agree once... and Kerrison actually would agree to it seems (even though he had some nice falsehoods in his interview).

Let me turn this around... all you have is a bleief he is innocent. you can not explain the idiosyncracies, yet you attack me for being suspicious.

You are a believer, I take facts. Sucks doesn't it?

Who's the believer here?

Those who believe Sky are doping are the skypians, they have no proof of doping but they believe through certain words and action that Sky are doping and do not need evidence just their faith.

Then there are those like myself, who are the skynostics who take a wait and see approach and will only believe with absolute proof, aka evidence.

The skytheiests, well they're just fanboys!

 

[taiwan]

It's the internet. You can voice reasonable suspicions without hard evidence. What's your best guess as to what's going on?

 

[the big ring]

Again, it's nothing to do with other teams. Sky aren't claiming they raced less than other teams; they are claiming they raced less than they did in previous years.
.

Upon second reading, I concur.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...will only believe with absolute proof, aka evidence.

Another post demanding proof. What would qualify as evidence they are doping? Be specific.

 

[Benotti69]

Who's the believer here?

Those who believe Sky are doping are the skypians, they have no proof of doping but they believe through certain words and action that Sky are doping and do not need evidence just their faith.

Then there are those like myself, who are the skynostics who take a wait and see approach and will only believe with absolute proof, aka evidence.

The skytheiests, well they're just fanboys!

We are not talking about normality when we talk about pro cycling. But you would know that if you followed the sport prior to the formation of 2010.

In cycling where there is smoke there is fire. It is very very difficult to find the fire due to all the obstacles not wanting the fire to be found.

In France it normally takes the Police, see Remy Di Gregorio as the latest.

Other cases, Ricco came back and used Aldo Sassi (do you know who he is?) to prove his cleanliness then made a mess of his doping and nearly killed himself, which CONI used to ban him. Contador was caught by a newly developed test for clenbuterol and it found such small traces, enough to ban him.

So the smoke at TeamSky will be very hard to find. It will probably take a confession from a member of Sky in the future, which is common.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Upon second reading, I concur.

Thanks. And for the avoidance of doubt, I have deep suspicions about Sky, though unlike many who post here, I'm not that bothered. I've followed cycling since Zoetemelk won the Tour and my life appears to be curiously independent of the doping status of the guy on the top step of the podium.

 

[Benotti69]

Thanks. And for the avoidance of doubt, I have deep suspicions about Sky, though unlike many who post here, I'm not that bothered. I've followed cycling since Zoetemelk won the Tour and my life appears to be curiously independent of the doping status of the guy on the top step of the podium.

Was independent, that has changed by your presence in the clinic.

 

[the big ring]

Thanks. And for the avoidance of doubt, I have deep suspicions about Sky, though unlike many who post here, I'm not that bothered. I've followed cycling since Zoetemelk won the Tour and my life appears to be curiously independent of the doping status of the guy on the top step of the podium.

Completely OT, but I have followed pro cycling for as long - via magazines from the amateur cycling club I joined when I first got into it.

I am bothered: my concern is for the guys I am watching grow up with potential for pro careers, having to probably subject themselves to the doping cycle if they want to "make it" once they join the pro ranks.

 

[Von Mises]

Great, poetic post.

It maybe poetic, but his numbers are definetly not correct. He overestimates signifcantly.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I am bothered: my concern is for the guys I am watching grow up with potential for pro careers, having to probably subject themselves to the doping cycle if they want to "make it" once they join the pro ranks.

A fair point, but having the natural ability to be good enough to consider a career in professional sport doesn't close down other opportunities in life. 99.9% of folk (made up proportion, but it's very large) don't have the genetic make-up, so the people you describe are in a sense lucky to have the chance to make the choice. And if they choose not to dope then they simply take their chances in the real world with the rest of us.

 

[simo1733]

A fair point, but having the natural ability to be good enough to consider a career in professional sport doesn't close down other opportunities in life. 99.9% of folk (made up proportion, but it's very large) don't have the genetic make-up, so the people you describe are in a sense lucky to have the chance to make the choice. And if they choose not to dope then they simply take their chances in the real world with the rest of us.

Why is it that if Sky have such an effective doping program, it doesn't work in the classics.Likewise OPQS program produces stellar performances in the classics but nothing in the GT's?

 

[mastersracer]

Another post demanding proof. What would qualify as evidence they are doping? Be specific.

So far, no one has been able to produce any evidence that their performance is statistically distinguishable from a non-doped performance. The best estimates of sustained power (SRM data directly from riders, such as Nibali) are entirely consistent with non-doped performances. This is not evidence of non-doping (since a mediocre rider may only produce good power outputs with PEDs) but it makes claims of obvious doping specious.

 

[Benotti69]

Why is it that if Sky have such an effective doping program, it doesn't work in the classics.Likewise OPQS program produces stellar performances in the classics but nothing in the GT's?

Depends on the doping regime I suppose. It might depend on the doctors speciality. It might depend on team goals, classics being of major importance to OPQS and TdF being no.1 goal for Sky.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Why is it that if Sky have such an effective doping program, it doesn't work in the classics.Likewise OPQS program produces stellar performances in the classics but nothing in the GT's?

I don't know.

As a guess, it would be that Sky have specifically recruited guys to help Wiggo win the Tour and on the whole, they are not explosive enough to prosper in the Classics. Conversely, the more explosive muscle types of Classics riders aren't particularly useful in GTs. Sweeping generalisations, obviously.

Obviously, in the past, the top guys could do well at both, but the field was narrower in those days and the top guys were all time legends. Much as I admire Wiggo, he's not a great GT winner and won't be a legendary roadie other than as the first Brit to win the Tour.

 

[Red Lobster]

Why is it that if Sky have such an effective doping program, it doesn't work in the classics.

Yeah, funny that. Worked exactly the same for USPS/Discovery.

 

[jilbiker]

Why is it that if Sky have such an effective doping program, it doesn't work in the classics.Likewise OPQS program produces stellar performances in the classics but nothing in the GT's?

What astounds people is that Sky could have done this in the face of everyone, in this day and age of better testing and better controls. But Richie Portier and Michael Rogers to me was the eye opener. Their wattage for lengthy periods in the mountains bothered on the ridiculous. I don't buy the training bit, their recovery was also superfluous 'cos they did this nearly day after day in the mountains. i am also convinced that
A/ Froome is PED
B/ Wiggins is Somewhat PED.

My deduction is from the 3 week performance. I think any experienced rider can spot PED, like any experienced body builder can spot artificial growth of body muscles. A rider looks at wattage, sustenance length and recovery. Basso knew it was a joke and I think he was amazed that after what he had been through and seen in US postal that a team would blatantly do it....and perhaps get away with it??

 

[gobuck]

I wonder if the slopes on the power meters were set lower to show lower power numbers than they were actually doing?

 

[Benotti69]

I wonder if the slopes on the power meters were set lower to show lower power numbers than they were actually doing?

Surely they wouldn't do that. That would be cheating