Tejay Van Garderen Discussion Thread

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Winning a stage like this is pretty impressive. That group was strong and Landa is clearly strong. That was a statement win. I think he's fooling himself with the GC talk to be honest, but with winning a stage like this today, he's going to open potential doors for other goals (KOM, One day races, etc). Good luck to him.
 
Mar 14, 2009
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Son of Amsterhammer said:
Winning a stage like this is pretty impressive. That group was strong and Landa is clearly strong. That was a statement win. I think he's fooling himself with the GC talk to be honest, but with winning a stage like this today, he's going to open potential doors for other goals (KOM, One day races, etc). Good luck to him.
Impressive? OK, he won but only because the main contenders didnt give a crap about the stage win. Yeah, sure, it's a win but I would not call it impressive.

Its same like yesterday all the Cannondale fans were celebrating while knowing the peloton gave the break 20min. Yeah it was a win nobody cared about, the race is happening elsewhere ... just saying
 
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pastronef said:
Jancouver said:
Son of Amsterhammer said:
Winning a stage like this is pretty impressive. That group was strong and Landa is clearly strong. That was a statement win. I think he's fooling himself with the GC talk to be honest, but with winning a stage like this today, he's going to open potential doors for other goals (KOM, One day races, etc). Good luck to him.
Impressive? OK, he won but only because the main contenders didnt give a crap about the stage win. Yeah, sure, it's a win but I would not call it impressive.

Its same like yesterday all the Cannondale fans were celebrating while knowing the peloton gave the break 20min. Yeah it was a win nobody cared about, the race is happening elsewhere ... just saying
*deleted by King Boonen*
Wow, that escalated quickly.
 
Folks, if you don't like what someone has to say you have two options:

1. You can refute their post in a civil manner without attacking the poster personally.

2. You can ignore it.


I really do not like handing out bans, please don't make me have to do it.
 
To me Tejay's win yesterday was impressive for the simple reason that he was able to raise up again after having failed in the GC. It would have been so easy for him to just give up and go home, instead he decided to stay to see if he couldn't at least get something out of the race, and he did. Sure, the GC riders might not have chased the win 100% - but it's not as if they let the break sail away with +10 minutes - but there were plenty other strong riders in that front group, yet only two were able to get away when it counted. Tejay being one of them.
 
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Jancouver said:
Son of Amsterhammer said:
Winning a stage like this is pretty impressive. That group was strong and Landa is clearly strong. That was a statement win. I think he's fooling himself with the GC talk to be honest, but with winning a stage like this today, he's going to open potential doors for other goals (KOM, One day races, etc). Good luck to him.
Impressive? OK, he won but only because the main contenders didnt give a crap about the stage win. Yeah, sure, it's a win but I would not call it impressive.

Its same like yesterday all the Cannondale fans were celebrating while knowing the peloton gave the break 20min. Yeah it was a win nobody cared about, the race is happening elsewhere ... just saying
It was impressive for many reasons (personal, professional, sporting...). True the GC contenders were busy with their own race within a race, but there are 150+ guys in this race who want a GT stage win. There is a lot more to a GT stage than the main GC guys. I could type on about the dynamics of a stage race, but I assume that most of us here understand.
 
Mar 14, 2009
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trucido said:
Impressive but no more than Rolland's win the other day.
There will be another impressive victor today. The break already has 11min while the peloton rides at leisurely pace. Yeah, it will be very impressive. One for the history books. We will be talking about this day for centuries how impressive this win will be ... :cool:
 
Mar 14, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
Why not just accept that what's impressive depends on the rider - and the situation he's in? If Quintana had won a stage like yesterday it of course wouldn't have been impressive, but for Tejay it's a different story.
Its great that he got the win, but I actually think the fake win will hurt his career in a long-term as the win is giving him and his teams some false hopes. It would be better to hit the bottom completely and change everything from scratch ... this way, there is no hope as they will keep chasing something that is not there JMHO
 
Aug 12, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
Why not just accept that what's impressive depends on the rider - and the situation he's in? If Quintana had won a stage like yesterday it of course wouldn't have been impressive, but for Tejay it's a different story.
Landa backing up two days in a row after two second places, now that is impressive.

Tejay did well. Good for him.

Then he showed his lack of class and started BOASTING in himself again.

He has learned absolutely nothing. He just got part way out of his hole and began digging further. Good job there.

Whilst stage 18 was nice, I discovered an artilce on velonews where Tejay actually confirmed everything I ahve been saying. He admitted he is probably starting GT's too light and suffers because of it. He knows what the problem is but is focused on his watts per kilogram.

Until he solves that issue, nothing has changed. He simply won a stage. Good work. There are 63 of them each year in Grand Tour's. Peter Sagan won five at the Tour last year...

Tejay irks people because he has opened his mouth and boasted far too much. It's like hearing Dumoulin cry about other riders not work with him yesterday...both are major A grade douchebags who appear to think they're entitled something without doing the yards.

I'll applaud when they deliver. In the mean time, both are good for a laugh. I had a great laugh tonight. Maglia rosa wearer bad mouths other riders whose teams do more work than his...loses time next stage. That's why cycling is gold for comedy. as there are plenty of stuck up little boys riding bikes with enormous egos who don't deliver.

Keep giving Tejay...you almost got to the point where I sympathise further and then you opened your gob. Another BMC failing. Sky had the common sense to remove their walking potty mouth in Wiggins from the road squad...mouthed off too much to. Still does!! I thought he'd learned.

It seems these guys really don't learn at all. They just get another result and go back to the same foolishness. So, laughing at them is what's going to amuse me. Thanks Tejay, got zero time to show you sympathy anymore.

GC rider...nope. Not a chance.
 
Guess what confuses me is the "he's too thin to be a climber." part. After all, generally speaking being thin is pretty much a good thing when you wanna be a climber.
Though, it's entirely possible that Tejay simply doesn't have the physique to be as thin as necessary to be a climber, and that he instead should focus on his ITT and limiting his losses on the climbs. Judging by the last ITT he's lost some of his TTing skills too, or maybe his head was still too full of the "What happened?" thoughts.

However, I do agree that he's making a mistake in thinking he could still be a GT contender. Or maybe it's thinking that he should still be a GT contender; that a career as a GT contender is the only career worth having.
 
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Jancouver said:
Son of Amsterhammer said:
Winning a stage like this is pretty impressive. That group was strong and Landa is clearly strong. That was a statement win. I think he's fooling himself with the GC talk to be honest, but with winning a stage like this today, he's going to open potential doors for other goals (KOM, One day races, etc). Good luck to him.
Impressive? OK, he won but only because the main contenders didnt give a crap about the stage win. Yeah, sure, it's a win but I would not call it impressive.

Its same like yesterday all the Cannondale fans were celebrating while knowing the peloton gave the break 20min. Yeah it was a win nobody cared about, the race is happening elsewhere ... just saying
LOL. GT contenders often don't give a crap about conceding these last week stages. It is always like that. That's the idea of stage hunting.

Besides, and not only for this Giro, but for other Grand Tours, I usually get impressed by the quality of the riders in the attack for these mountain stages. Usually very good.

Besides people were calling for his retirement after this Giro. LOL. That's got to hurt somebody. So that's a good comeback.

Let's just say You don't like the rider.
 
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Galic Ho said:
RedheadDane said:
Why not just accept that what's impressive depends on the rider - and the situation he's in? If Quintana had won a stage like yesterday it of course wouldn't have been impressive, but for Tejay it's a different story.
Landa backing up two days in a row after two second places, now that is impressive.

Tejay did well. Good for him.

Then he showed his lack of class and started BOASTING in himself again.

He has learned absolutely nothing. He just got part way out of his hole and began digging further. Good job there.

Whilst stage 18 was nice, I discovered an artilce on velonews where Tejay actually confirmed everything I ahve been saying. He admitted he is probably starting GT's too light and suffers because of it. He knows what the problem is but is focused on his watts per kilogram.

Until he solves that issue, nothing has changed. He simply won a stage. Good work. There are 63 of them each year in Grand Tour's. Peter Sagan won five at the Tour last year...

Tejay irks people because he has opened his mouth and boasted far too much. It's like hearing Dumoulin cry about other riders not work with him yesterday...both are major A grade ***** who appear to think they're entitled something without doing the yards.

I'll applaud when they deliver. In the mean time, both are good for a laugh. I had a great laugh tonight. Maglia rosa wearer bad mouths other riders whose teams do more work than his...loses time next stage. That's why cycling is gold for comedy. as there are plenty of stuck up little boys riding bikes with enormous egos who don't deliver.

Keep giving Tejay...you almost got to the point where I sympathise further and then you opened your gob. Another BMC failing. Sky had the common sense to remove their walking potty mouth in Wiggins from the road squad...mouthed off too much to. Still does!! I thought he'd learned.

It seems these guys really don't learn at all. They just get another result and go back to the same foolishness. So, laughing at them is what's going to amuse me. Thanks Tejay, got zero time to show you sympathy anymore.

GC rider...nope. Not a chance.
so TJ sucks but the guys you compare him to in this post?
Landa
Sagan
Dumoulin
Wiggo

not bad company
 
May 4, 2010
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Tonton said:
I'm very happy for TJVG. At least he gets something positive out of this Giro. It was tough to see his demise, how his world crashed to the ground.
It is a great win for TJ but his "crash" wouldn't have been so big had he been more realistic about his abilities.

Once he accepts the idea that he has much greater potential to pick up stage wins than seriously challenge gc the more stage wins he should have. If he continues to put himself up as a gc contender he will continue to be frustrated.

Hope this is the first of many for him.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
Guess what confuses me is the "he's too thin to be a climber." part. After all, generally speaking being thin is pretty much a good thing when you wanna be a climber.
Though, it's entirely possible that Tejay simply doesn't have the physique to be as thin as necessary to be a climber, and that he instead should focus on his ITT and limiting his losses on the climbs. Judging by the last ITT he's lost some of his TTing skills too, or maybe his head was still too full of the "What happened?" thoughts.

However, I do agree that he's making a mistake in thinking he could still be a GT contender. Or maybe it's thinking that he should still be a GT contender; that a career as a GT contender is the only career worth having.
"Tejay is too thin after the first week of a grand tour to maintain a high functional threshold power output consistently. This is evidenced by his need to lose considerable chunks of time during the second and third week, allowing him the option on a day where the break could potentially succeed, to be in it and possibly climb."

"Further evidence is visible from Mikel Landa, who has finished on the Giro podium, and barring a 27 min time loss on the Blockhaus during stage 9, would have been among the front riders who daily have to expend huge chunks of energy. Tejay made his stage win after SAVING energy with major time losses. Landa finished second on two occasions, stages 16 and 18 being in very long breaks both days. He then showed enormous mental fortitude and physical stamina by once again, going in a very long break and beating everyone."

So yes, Tejay is too thin to be a GC rider and show the actual stamina required to NOT DROP HUGE CHUNKS OF TIME EVERY DAY IN THE THIRD WEEK!!

Proof: 2015 Tour de France. Result was DNF, dropped by the groupetto on the first climb of the Queen stage. Couldn't turn his crank over.
2015 Vuelta Espana - another DNF
2016 Tour de France - dropped 20 minutes stage 16, again, the first mountain stage after the second rest day. Is that normal? Again, that is the pattern he presents with. Claimed he could stay back, recuperate time and would help Richie Porte's GC challenge. Lacked the stamina to even race with the front 20 riders for the remaining stages. Porte was left with Greg van Avermaet and one other rider, neither of whom are GC riders
2016 Vuelta Espana - again, more proof he is not a GC rider.

What Tejay did, is actually what we've been stating HE SHOULD aim for.

Except, when he does well, he ruins it for SOME OF US, by stating he is a GC rider. I interpret that as he has learned nothing and will try again. Every sensible person is stating this clearly, but unless Tejay loses lots of time intentionally, he won't win a stage in a grand tour.

Take Rui Costa for example. Good climber. Good stage racer. Tejay can be to. Winning the Tour de Suisse 3x is phenomenal. Especially the last time when not racing for Movistar. That was wise riding and careful consideration of his chosen parcours within his capacity.

All most of us have been saying is, Tejay should take these stage wins, make them a priority, maybe go for KOM jersey...he can still climb really well, but as far as being a competitive GC level climber over 3 weeks the answer is a thorough NO WAY JOSE! He could have won the Tour of California several times by now. I don't doubt him, I'm just being really strict and realistic. He can win...those races. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I do however find the arrogance he has where he is lacking major results and thinking he can be a GC rider as ridiculous. Whilst he tries to win a GC contest in a grand tour, there are several lower level but still thoroughly impressive races he could win and be consistent at. Ask old man Horner...

Won California and a few other races at 38+. Then finally once he had the mettle, threw all caution into the wind and rode nuclear at the Vuelta.

That's about the best Tejay is going to get if he wants to win a GT. No sane person even thinks he can win a GT without touching on the Clinic...
 
Aug 12, 2009
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saunaking said:
so TJ sucks but the guys you compare him to in this post?
Landa
Sagan
Dumoulin
Wiggo

not bad company
I agree.

Remind me when Tejay wins every time trial he races like Wiggins did in 2012. Remind me when after failing in his Giro aspirations, like Sir Brad did in 2010 (it was hilarious BTW to witness) how he rectifies the problem by going to a Vuelta and finishing third...oh wait, would he expect a team mate to pull him onto GC like Wiggins had? Or worse, sacrifice the overall win because he was designated leader? Wiggins actually went out and won stage races before winning the Tour. Wiggins did that too. Dauphine, Paris Nice...Tejay has won what? My bad...it's Porte who has won those!!

I get them confused with the red jerseys they wear...forgive me :D ;)

Remind me when he rides for Astana and loses time for his GC captain, loyally sacrificing his second place for his leader. He had that option in 2012 at the Tour. He didn't wait for Evans. Landa lost a second in the Giro for Aru...Landa is by far the better team mate and loyal rider. Also better climber. Why do you think he got a ride at Sky?

Heck...BMC poached a Sky rider to complement Tejay. We can safely say, he's replaced him now. Tejay eluded to this detail after his stage win when he started gushing forth his hype.

Peter Sagan actually races the Tour of California and gets phenomenal results. Tejay could learn a thing or two there. Oh, and he never stops trying. Landa did that the other day too...second, second, tries a final third time and gets the win. Peter Sagan had 5 second places in the 2015 Tour. Tejay had a DNF that race. Must have missed the highlights.

Dumoulin has bowel issues. But is actually improving his ITT whilst climbing better. Tejay hasn't.

Wiggins. Ah, sir Brad...Dumoulin is doing the modelling really well. Tejay hasn't.

He can aspire to be these men all he likes. All 5 delivered. Big results.

Tejay can talk the talk, but he has to walk the walk. Good company to be in when the RESULTS are there. Don't forget that. Tejay should actually humble himself and SAY NOTHING. That's my major issue with him...and that's why everyone picks on him and laughs at him. He over hypes himself JUST when he finally gets some good news.
 
Now you're saying Too thin to be a GC contender, previously you were saying Too thin to be a climber. There's a difference, mainly in the sense that you don't have to be a climber to be a GC contender.
Though, the 2015 Vuelta might be a bad example; didn't he break his collarbone, or wrist, or something? That's hardly got anything to do with his weight...
And once more, I do agree that he's making a mistake in thinking he could/should still be a GT rider.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
Now you're saying Too thin to be a GC contender, previously you were saying Too thin to be a climber. There's a difference, mainly in the sense that you don't have to be a climber to be a GC contender.
Though, the 2015 Vuelta might be a bad example; didn't he break his collarbone, or wrist, or something? That's hardly got anything to do with his weight...
And once more, I do agree that he's making a mistake in thinking he could/should still be a GT rider.
If I did...that was a communication fault on my behalf.

How could I logically claim, that Tejay could win the Tour of California, where they climb up to Big Bear pass, which is 2000m in elevation, without him being a decent climber? It's always meant, on my behalf, to be a claim about 'relativity' when contrasted with the competition at that exact point in time of a race. With Tejay, I am referring to the end of a grand tour and being a general classification rider.

I have been stating, he should put weight on, add MORE power, see how fast he can climb at 5kg heavier and then go for the stage races, that are 1 week long.

He finished in about 5th place overall at Romandie. Porte won. That finished a month ago. He beat the racer who is currently 5th on GC at that race without much hassle.

Tejay can climb up there with everyone in a GT for the first week. But when it gets tough, when the fatigue kicks in, his body HAS been cracking. For crying out loud, that's what I meant!

Do you, for example, believe he could have been with the Nibali and Quintana group yesterday on stage 19? Also consider to do so requires not being dropped on the previous stages.

He beats some of those riders OVER the course of 1 week climbing. But when it gets to the second and third week in a grand tour, that dynamic, that positioning reverses. They keep going and don't fatigue fast. Tejay however does.

So he can climb. He should put some weight on, get his power up, become a stronger time triallist and win shorter races. But in no way, shape or form, without becoming Horner part 2, is he going to be a GC rider. That means, he won't be climbing day in, day out, in the front 20 riders on GC without losing time.

The last time he actually did was 2014 and I said then, if he didn't address the major time loses he dropped to Pinto, Valverde and Bardet, he'd never go higher than he did. Tejay has GOTTEN WORSE since then climbing in the FINAL WEEK of a Grand Tour.

That comes down not to watt/kg...it comes down to energy. Too thin when his bodies glucose supply runs short and his lower body fat % means his krebs cycle switches fuel sources. That's why he is TOO THIN. It's got nothing to do with power, but when his energy pathways switch from glucose (using his food and mostly carbs) to having to rely on body fat stores, because he is fatigued at that longer duration of racing (2 weeks onwards in a GT vs 1 week stage races) he for some reason, doesn't react as he once did. Tejay knew this. He actually did what he thought he should do to compete and it doesn't work physically for him. (Edit: I said this yesterday when referencing velonews and the interview he gave post Romandie. He said he probably gets too thin...and nobody on this forum noticed!).

Nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with maintaining that level of stubbornness and expecting to compete with the big boys on GC (note my pun about their weight) :D :) .

His body is naturally too far below HIS own homeostasis when the racing really becomes hard in a GT

Dumoulin for example, is not. Thus he keeps up. Pinot is not. Nibali is not. Zakarin is not. Tejay beats many of these blokes at shorter stage races...or is close to them. Why? Because at that level of racing, he is not below his bodies OWN PERSONAL level of homeostasis, meaning it can keep up energy supply. Glucose is probably enough for him at that intensity. But a GT does require body fat stores to keep going.

I've not changed my claim once...you probably didn't understand my expression. I've been consistent with what I know is wrong with Tejay.

Anyway...I have some riders to go laugh at tonight. Enjoy the stage!
 
I think it's possible to be a decent climber without actually being A Climber. After all, Tom Dumoulin is a pretty decent climber... would require quite a wild stretch of the imagination to call him a climber.

I've not changed my claim once...you probably didn't understand my expression. I've been consistent with what I know is wrong with Tejay.
Once you swapped Too thin to be a climber for Too thin to be a GT contender it made a whole lot more sense.
 

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