Tejay Van Garderen Discussion Thread

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Aug 12, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
I think it's possible to be a decent climber without actually being A Climber. After all, Tom Dumoulin is a pretty decent climber... would require quite a wild stretch of the imagination to call him a climber.

I've not changed my claim once...you probably didn't understand my expression. I've been consistent with what I know is wrong with Tejay.
Once you swapped Too thin to be a climber for Too thin to be a GT contender it made a whole lot more sense.
Note, I am laughing a lot at Tom and his mouthing off too.

Not picking on just Tejay.

Dumoulin, IMO, has a wonderful time trial.

I thought he would crack on one of the mountains. Is he the stereotype natural climber?

No. He said he found when he lost weight, to try and be like Wiggins (so Wiggins is the pattern, they are mirroring his break through and success) that his power when he went under 70kg was too low. Lose weight, focus on his time trial capacity (he is really good now) and improve his climbing because the weight loss helped his watts per kilogram. Naturally, his stamina will be tested. He's in second...he's done really well. Same as Kruisjwijk last year. Great result.

Don't like his mouthing off about 'effort' exerted, but he was simply projecting.

That's his business, but it is actually the very darn thing I have been claiming Tejay seems to be attempting to do without any tangible results. Dumoulin tried the same approach in 2015, lost big time in the Vuelta, focused on the Olympics last year, and has now shown solid gains.

Yes, I believe Tejay tried to do this after 2014. He beat Bardet by a single second. Why? Last time to gain time was a time trial! Bardet has improved. Pinot...TonTon, sorry, but IMO, he faltered for a bit in GT's. Stage races? Not really. He was strong there...he just has had a few issues. Seems to be where he should be as a GC racer right now though. 4th is really solid. Is Tejay hoping for this level?

I think so. Disagree with him that he should expend more years trying though. He had 2015, 2016 and this Giro...

Lets look at the natural climbers in this Giro. Quintana is always up there. Nibali at some races has struggled, however his 3 week grand tour climbing pedigree is solid. They fire. Are they better than Dumoulin? As climbers, absolutely. But not so much better that they can afford to be sloppy and not attack, nor can they be lazy in their time trialling.

People claim Quintana's time trialling sucks. He was about the level Porte use to be at, during last years Tour de France. Note, Porte has probably gone back to his old levels he had at Sky when winning lots of stage races in 2015...it's just Froome and Dumoulin are making huge gains on riders who relative to everyone else, are reasonable. Any GC rider doing a top 20 in a time trial at the end of a GT, is doing really well. I'll re-clarify. Any CLIMBER, aka natural climber, who gets inside the top 20 in a time trial during a grand tour, rode really well.

Nibali did this earlier this Giro. We'll see how tomorrow goes.

He's in what? Second in the Giro and dropped ONLY a minute yesterday pulling himself a long way.

Plus he did win a mountain stage and put time into the other riders once this Giro. So, in terms of relativity, he's been there at the front, in the strongest 3 climbing GC riders.

For Tejay to HOPE to aspire to this is pushing his own limits IMO. Having a goal is super. But it needs to be reachable and achievable. Nothing is worse than having a goal and never getting close. He IMO can't do both the time trialling and climbing as a GC rider. He can do one...and not as a GC rider. Either climb for stage wins, rest, and strategically go for KOM jerseys, stage races, or become a stronger time triallist and switch to being a classics style rider.

In other words, yes Dumoulin managed to climb really well and time trial phenomenally. Tejay lost 4 minutes to him in the Time Trial...his goals have actually harmed his former strong position as a really high level time triallist. Wiggins could do it for a season. Froome has maintained it for 5 years now. Tejay hasn't. Analyse why, and then change yourself.

I'll quote Dmitry Klokov. He said he always trained as though he was going to win. He won an Olympic silver medal. His training focus was maximum and he believed he could compete for Gold. His performance was second. Mentally believing in yourself for gold is where the key lies...

Translating this for Tejay is simple. Don't aim for grand tour GC status and climbing with the worlds best over 3 weeks. Switch for a better goal for himself, race for it, achieve it (he is actually not far from being able to do it in a season if he switches focus) and derive the joy and pleasure that brings rather than chasing a flame in the distance that keeps getting further away (being a GC rider and winner...).
 
So, what you're saying is that Tejay made a mistake in thinking that he ought to lose weight - and thus risk his TT - in order to be a prober GT contender? While Tom Dumoulin realised it was better for him to keep his TT, even if it meant not being a top-climber, I don't think it's just your opinion that Dumoulin has a good time trial, would consider it a fact...

Of course it makes sense that guys like Tejay and Dumoulin can't be as thin as guys like Quintana and Pozzovivo, they'd basically be sticks if they tried that.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
So, what you're saying is that Tejay made a mistake in thinking that he ought to lose weight - and thus risk his TT - in order to be a prober GT contender? While Tom Dumoulin realised it was better for him to keep his TT, even if it meant not being a top-climber, I don't think it's just your opinion that Dumoulin has a good time trial, would consider it a fact...

Of course it makes sense that guys like Tejay and Dumoulin can't be as thin as guys like Quintana and Pozzovivo, they'd basically be sticks if they tried that.
On the big climbs at the Tour in 2014, Nibali dropped the front riders, who were Valverde, Peraud, Bardet and Pinot. Tejay always got dropped by them in turn. Those are the guys competing for the podium at the time. All of them, minus Peraud, are in theory, potential top 5 and podium placers at the grand tours they race.

To finish in the top 5 at the Tour, in the future, ignoring new riders competing, requried Tejay to NOT be the first guy of the GC riders dropped.

I am saying I think he believed this could be achieved via dropping weight.

He already had a drop in performance on the Queen stage that year, the first mountain stage after the second rest day. I'm saying his further attempt to try and climb with the top guys, is probably weight loss related, and thus, has impacted his energy.

It may have even crippled his time trialing.

He needs to work things out ASAP. Nothing has changed in that department. He's literally not competitive in either now at the current GC level. So why hinder his performance further?

Dumoulin is simply my current example of someone attempting the same thing Tejay has done, but Tom admitted he could not go beyond a set weight. Tejay eluded to that in the article I found...he said he probably went too thin.

Neither Quintana nor Pozzovivo look thin. They are lighter, but for their height, I believe they are close to their bodies natural homeostasis, aka their natural weight. Tejay IMO is below his. Quite a bit below his. Tom is very close to his, and has admitted if he goes any lower, yes he may climb a bit faster, but his overall power and in theory, his energy reserves, suffered.
 
So Tejay ended up finishing 20th in the Giro, 57 mins behind Tom D. He even beat Quintana in the TT, but then again, so did 25 others, including 2 of his own Team (Quinziato and Dillier).
 
Re:

Yingge said:
So Tejay ended up finishing 20th in the Giro, 57 mins behind Tom D. He even beat Quintana in the TT, but then again, so did 25 others, including 2 of his own Team (Quinziato and Dillier).
Zubeldia has been doing that for years without even being noticed. A win is a win and it is hopefully good for his morale but the performance on GC isn't improving. How many more chances will he get at BMC ? The fact that he dropped to 40th place before he was allowed in breaks and not seen as a danger gives pause for thought. Compare this to Porte's ride in the Tour and it's like chalk and cheese.
 
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SHAD0W93 said:
It is good progress and better then what happened with A Schleck. I hope he can win more GT stages and win week long stage races.
Schleck never recovered from losing the 2011 Tour to Cadel Evans. I think he expected to win with Contador doing the Giro first. Then he had his pelvis injury and started a family and the motivation which was sometimes hit and miss seemed to disappear. I think he did the right thing retiring when he did. TJVG is young enough to turn things around. The stage win will give his morale a boost but the turnaround probably has to happen in the next 18 months in regard to his future as a GC rider. I'm not sure that he is the type to become a team helper and target different types of races. Riders like Roche are happy to just be domestiques. Maybe a change of team and a new approach. It works for some.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
SHAD0W93 said:
It is good progress and better then what happened with A Schleck. I hope he can win more GT stages and win week long stage races.
Schleck never recovered from losing the 2011 Tour to Cadel Evans. I think he expected to win with Contador doing the Giro first. Then he had his pelvis injury and started a family and the motivation which was sometimes hit and miss seemed to disappear. I think he did the right thing retiring when he did. TJVG is young enough to turn things around. The stage win will give his morale a boost but the turnaround probably has to happen in the next 18 months in regard to his future as a GC rider. I'm not sure that he is the type to become a team helper and target different types of races. Riders like Roche are happy to just be domestiques. Maybe a change of team and a new approach. It works for some.
Riders like Roche & Thomas have been doing domestique work all through their career even if leaders at times .The thing about Tejay is I have never seen him close a gap for another rider. sit in a sprint train , set tempo, bring back a break or anything resembling domestique work
All this talk on here about his weight is just that ..talk .he has been a pro long enough to know what weight he needs to eb and he has done top 5's with BMCso his weight was not an issue then ....

The thing is he is not good enough to win a GT or even podium ...not with Froome, Dumoulin, Nibali, Quintana, Contador, Porte, Chaves, Yates, Thomas, Landa , Bardet, Pinot riding

and that is just some of the many

I thought when he failed at GC in this Giro he would wake up and realise that stage hunting and week long stage races would suit him better

But no...immediately at his interview on wining stage 18 he said he was going to continue to ride GC and that he was targeting the Vuelta ... and BMC are blamed ?

How many chances should he get ?? A smarter person than Tejay appears to be would admit that another route was required and they would say I ride in US and maybe Canadian one day races and Italian classics

not Tejay ...he is gonna win a GT :eek: :eek:

If BMC continue to make him leader they need their heads examining

Also there is hubris in his approach...does he really think that a WT team should continue to back him while never getting results on GC
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
SHAD0W93 said:
It is good progress and better then what happened with A Schleck. I hope he can win more GT stages and win week long stage races.
Schleck never recovered from losing the 2011 Tour to Cadel Evans. I think he expected to win with Contador doing the Giro first. Then he had his pelvis injury and started a family and the motivation which was sometimes hit and miss seemed to disappear. I think he did the right thing retiring when he did. TJVG is young enough to turn things around. The stage win will give his morale a boost but the turnaround probably has to happen in the next 18 months in regard to his future as a GC rider. I'm not sure that he is the type to become a team helper and target different types of races. Riders like Roche are happy to just be domestiques. Maybe a change of team and a new approach. It works for some.
Actually Andy Schleck suffered a serious injury in the 2012 Criterium du Dauphine and was never the same again. As for Tejay, he hasn't been the same since his DNF in the 2015 Tour de France while contending for a podium position.
 
Re: Re:

HelloDolly said:
movingtarget said:
SHAD0W93 said:
It is good progress and better then what happened with A Schleck. I hope he can win more GT stages and win week long stage races.
Schleck never recovered from losing the 2011 Tour to Cadel Evans. I think he expected to win with Contador doing the Giro first. Then he had his pelvis injury and started a family and the motivation which was sometimes hit and miss seemed to disappear. I think he did the right thing retiring when he did. TJVG is young enough to turn things around. The stage win will give his morale a boost but the turnaround probably has to happen in the next 18 months in regard to his future as a GC rider. I'm not sure that he is the type to become a team helper and target different types of races. Riders like Roche are happy to just be domestiques. Maybe a change of team and a new approach. It works for some.
Riders like Roche & Thomas have been doing domestique work all through their career even if leaders at times .The thing about Tejay is I have never seen him close a gap for another rider. sit in a sprint train , set tempo, bring back a break or anything resembling domestique work
All this talk on here about his weight is just that ..talk .he has been a pro long enough to know what weight he needs to eb and he has done top 5's with BMCso his weight was not an issue then ....

The thing is he is not good enough to win a GT or even podium ...not with Froome, Dumoulin, Nibali, Quintana, Contador, Porte, Chaves, Yates, Thomas, Landa , Bardet, Pinot riding

and that is just some of the many

I thought when he failed at GC in this Giro he would wake up and realise that stage hunting and week long stage races would suit him better

But no...immediately at his interview on wining stage 18 he said he was going to continue to ride GC and that he was targeting the Vuelta ... and BMC are blamed ?

How many chances should he get ?? A smarter person than Tejay appears to be would admit that another route was required and they would say I ride in US and maybe Canadian one day races and Italian classics

not Tejay ...he is gonna win a GT :eek: :eek:

If BMC continue to make him leader they need their heads examining

Also there is hubris in his approach...does he really think that a WT team should continue to back him while never getting results on GC
Isn't this forum a place for us to TALK about cycling? Was his weight the same when he got the top fives or did he drop weight in an attempt to move up a step or two?
 
Isn't this forum a place for us to TALK about cycling? Was his weight the same when he got the top fives or did he drop weight in an attempt to move up a step or two?
Has anyone stopped you talking about cycling ?

As for his weight ...just the point ....I don't know but neither does anyone else ...its a mute point that has several long pages dedicated to it for no good reason as far as I can see
 
I'll be rooting for him in the Vuelta... a strong finish there would get the critics off his back.

Actually he did show some domestique abilities in this year's Giro so maybe that's a possible career path for him.

I'm mostly surprised that he managed to finish the race. Thought he was a goner after Blockhaus and the subsequent time trial.
 
Re:

DanielSong39 said:
I'll be rooting for him in the Vuelta... a strong finish there would get the critics off his back.

Actually he did show some domestique abilities in this year's Giro so maybe that's a possible career path for him.

I'm mostly surprised that he managed to finish the race. Thought he was a goner after Blockhaus and the subsequent time trial.
The thing is why should Tejay get leadership at the Vuelta when Sanchez was lying 7th last year when he crashed & finished 6th year before, Caruso was in top 10 last year , Hermans has shown good climbing in Oman and Roche has been 5th & 6th in the Vuelta and last time there was going well before he crashed and also wants a go at GC.
These riders will want a chance to ride and not support a rider who will go worse than them on GC ...and don't give me the excuse that Tejay is up and coming ...or will pay them back with working for them at another time
 
Re: Re:

HelloDolly said:
movingtarget said:
SHAD0W93 said:
It is good progress and better then what happened with A Schleck. I hope he can win more GT stages and win week long stage races.
Schleck never recovered from losing the 2011 Tour to Cadel Evans. I think he expected to win with Contador doing the Giro first. Then he had his pelvis injury and started a family and the motivation which was sometimes hit and miss seemed to disappear. I think he did the right thing retiring when he did. TJVG is young enough to turn things around. The stage win will give his morale a boost but the turnaround probably has to happen in the next 18 months in regard to his future as a GC rider. I'm not sure that he is the type to become a team helper and target different types of races. Riders like Roche are happy to just be domestiques. Maybe a change of team and a new approach. It works for some.
Riders like Roche & Thomas have been doing domestique work all through their career even if leaders at times .The thing about Tejay is I have never seen him close a gap for another rider. sit in a sprint train , set tempo, bring back a break or anything resembling domestique work
All this talk on here about his weight is just that ..talk .he has been a pro long enough to know what weight he needs to eb and he has done top 5's with BMCso his weight was not an issue then ....

The thing is he is not good enough to win a GT or even podium ...not with Froome, Dumoulin, Nibali, Quintana, Contador, Porte, Chaves, Yates, Thomas, Landa , Bardet, Pinot riding

and that is just some of the many

I thought when he failed at GC in this Giro he would wake up and realise that stage hunting and week long stage races would suit him better

But no...immediately at his interview on wining stage 18 he said he was going to continue to ride GC and that he was targeting the Vuelta ... and BMC are blamed ?

How many chances should he get ?? A smarter person than Tejay appears to be would admit that another route was required and they would say I ride in US and maybe Canadian one day races and Italian classics

not Tejay ...he is gonna win a GT :eek: :eek:

If BMC continue to make him leader they need their heads examining

Also there is hubris in his approach...does he really think that a WT team should continue to back him while never getting results on GC
He did all of that in HTC for Cav 6 years ago. :p




I know, long time ago.
 
Re: Re:

HelloDolly said:
DanielSong39 said:
I'll be rooting for him in the Vuelta... a strong finish there would get the critics off his back.

Actually he did show some domestique abilities in this year's Giro so maybe that's a possible career path for him.

I'm mostly surprised that he managed to finish the race. Thought he was a goner after Blockhaus and the subsequent time trial.
The thing is why should Tejay get leadership at the Vuelta when Sanchez was lying 7th last year when he crashed & finished 6th year before, Caruso was in top 10 last year , Hermans has shown good climbing in Oman and Roche has been 5th & 6th in the Vuelta and last time there was going well before he crashed and also wants a go at GC.
These riders will want a chance to ride and not support a rider who will go worse than them on GC ...and don't give me the excuse that Tejay is up and coming ...or will pay them back with working for them at another time
I agree, riders that have worked hard for others deserve a shot at the Vuelta.
 
Maybe the trick is to have one of the others be the main man, but let Tejay have a free role. Just, let him see if he can stay with the favourites on the climbs, but if he can't don't sacrifice anyone to help him. However, if he's still sorta up-there in the GC (top-20ish) the team might even be able to use him in a tactical manner.
 
Re: Re:

HelloDolly said:
DanielSong39 said:
I'll be rooting for him in the Vuelta... a strong finish there would get the critics off his back.

Actually he did show some domestique abilities in this year's Giro so maybe that's a possible career path for him.

I'm mostly surprised that he managed to finish the race. Thought he was a goner after Blockhaus and the subsequent time trial.
The thing is why should Tejay get leadership at the Vuelta when Sanchez was lying 7th last year when he crashed & finished 6th year before, Caruso was in top 10 last year , Hermans has shown good climbing in Oman and Roche has been 5th & 6th in the Vuelta and last time there was going well before he crashed and also wants a go at GC.
These riders will want a chance to ride and not support a rider who will go worse than them on GC ...and don't give me the excuse that Tejay is up and coming ...or will pay them back with working for them at another time
And with Sanchez supposedly retiring at the end of the year, BMC should at least give him the #1 spot, with TJVG as his chief helper.
 
May 3, 2010
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TJ should try to win a week stage race before he goes back to talking himself up as a grand tour GC guy. I don't think he has the panache to win a grand tour. His form is never consistent enough. I think he consistently could be a is a top ten->top 20 GC guy, but I don't think he will get on a podium ever.
 
Re:

RedheadDane said:
Maybe the trick is to have one of the others be the main man, but let Tejay have a free role. Just, let him see if he can stay with the favourites on the climbs, but if he can't don't sacrifice anyone to help him. However, if he's still sorta up-there in the GC (top-20ish) the team might even be able to use him in a tactical manner.

Dont see that at all...He got his chance ...give the others a chance
And whoever is leader will need doms not someone who wont help and be in a 'free role'
 
It's not unusual for teams, even those with an actual contender for the overall - which BMC probably won't have in the Vuelta - to let a rider have a free role and leave the domestiqueing to the remaining seven riders. Having someone with a free role - ie staying somewhat up in the GC - can also have tactical advantages. Not to mention that it's pretty smart to have a rider who isn't expected to work, but can then - potentially - stay with the leader in the finales.
 
Re:

RedheadDane said:
It's not unusual for teams, even those with an actual contender for the overall - which BMC probably won't have in the Vuelta - to let a rider have a free role and leave the domestiqueing to the remaining seven riders. Having someone with a free role - ie staying somewhat up in the GC - can also have tactical advantages. Not to mention that it's pretty smart to have a rider who isn't expected to work, but can then - potentially - stay with the leader in the finales.
He seems to go better when the stress is off. He could stage hunt of course but he has enough trouble being at his best in one GT per year lets not push things too far because he won a stage when he was in 40th place ! Sanchez will probably aim for a top five and he deserves a shot as leader.
 

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