Tennis

[zebedee]

Funny him giving up christianity all of a sudden. Was it the drugs, I wonder?

 

[Caruut]

Funny him giving up christianity all of a sudden. Was it the drugs, I wonder?

Can you elaborate as to why guilt from taking drugs would make you give up Christianity? Seems to me to be a ridiculous conclusion to come to, but perhaps I am missing something.

I can definitely see Christianity as a possible reason why he didn't take drugs in the first place. A solid moral code leaves little room for the morally relativistic world of "everyone was doing it".

If he had taken them, it could be a reason why he might later confess. What he reconciled with his faith at 20 might feel at 40 not to work so much, and hence feel a confession is in order, but not giving up religion. If he feels he has in some way "sinned" that is an inherently religious point of view, not a reason to give it up.

If he came to the conclusion it was a choice between taking drugs and giving up his dreams, then at that point he might have had his faith rocked. However, this is long, long after that initial potential shock.

Far more likely is that he gave up religion for one of the many reasons that most people do, none of which I will list here since nobody want this to turn into a Christian-Atheist flame war.

 

[zebedee]

Do I take it you are American and have sense neither of irony nor smidgen of humour?

 

[Altitude]

Anyways.........

Djokovic went a long, arduous 5 sets with Stan the Man Wawrinka the other night (after which Novak proceeded to rip off his shirt Hulk Hogan style while Wawrinka limped gingerly off the court). I'm willing to bet he shows no signs of risidual fatigue which would normally accompany an athlete under such circumstances. Simon had a similar slug fest against his compatriot Gael Monfils, then understandably had nothing left in the tank for his showdown with Murray last night, winning a meagre 7 games.

Keep in mind this is the same Djokovic who could hardly finish a 5 set match until his magical gluten free diet transformed him into the tennis equivalent of a super hero.

Regardless, here's hoping Berdych gives him a fight.

 

[The Hitch]

Anyways.........

Djokovic went a long, arduous 5 sets with Stan the Man Wawrinka the other night (after which Novak proceeded to rip off his shirt Hulk Hogan style while Wawrinka limped gingerly off the court). I'm willing to bet he shows no signs of risidual fatigue which would normally accompany an athlete under such circumstances. Simon had a similar slug fest against his compatriot Gael Monfils, then understandably had nothing left in the tank for his showdown with Murray last night, winning a meagre 7 games.

Keep in mind this is the same Djokovic who could hardly finish a 5 set match until his magical gluten free diet transformed him into the tennis equivalent of a super hero.

Regardless, here's hoping Berdych gives him a fight.

Exactly what i was thinking. Djokovic in his early 20's was known for retiring matches a lot. Did it at at least 3 grand slams and i remember him getting a lot of criticism for doing it.

But then suddenly his fatigue ceased to.be an obstacle for him.

 

[zebedee]

He's rumoured to travel around with one of those wonder machines known as the Egg . (Does anyone know whether these hyperbaric capsules are banned in some countries, by the way?)

Djokovic will march on inexorably to the final in wonderful condition. Nothing in tennis changes.

 

[Caruut]

Do I take it you are American and have sense neither of irony nor smidgen of humour?

That's a little unnecessarily rude. I'd rather you took it that this is the internet, and that Poe's law applies: there are enough idiots on the internet that any parody of them may, if not explicitly flagged, be mistaken for the real thing. Apologies for missing it.

 

[zebedee]

It was only meant as whimsy. My clumsy ways, perhaps.

I was rather taken aback by your response, but no offence intended.

Not sure either what a triple jumper was doing on a tennis thread.

 

[the sceptic]

I dont think Djokovic is doping as much as in 2011. He would never have this much trouble with Wawrinka back then. Will be interesting to see how fresh he is against Berdych. Maybe he decided to play clean(ish) now that he doesnt have to outlast Nadal?

 

[zebedee]

He'll march on serenely to the final in fantastic shape and condition.

No one can say whether he dopes or not. What's interesting though is that he's one of the players who are still giving out the guff, in response to questions about the Armstrong interview, that tennis is a clean, well-policed sport that requires neither change to the current testing regime nor, in particular, the need for the blood passport.

That sounds to me like a turkey voting against Christmas.

 

[Altitude]

I dont think Djokovic is doping as much as in 2011. He would never have this much trouble with Wawrinka back then. Will be interesting to see how fresh he is against Berdych. Maybe he decided to play clean(ish) now that he doesnt have to outlast Nadal?

Sure he is. You can still be off your game when you're doping. Wawrinka played him close but the point is that he wasn't tired after the match, and he won't be tired tonight.

 

[blackcat]

He'll march on serenely to the final in fantastic shape and condition.

No one can say whether he dopes or not. What's interesting though is that he's one of the players who are still giving out the guff, in response to questions about the Armstrong interview, that tennis is a clean, well-policed sport that requires neither change to the current testing regime nor, in particular, the need for the blood passport.

That sounds to me like a turkey voting against Christmas.

yeah we can.

compare the physiques and forms of players today compared to three decades ago.

Joker would be like McEnroe, same Murray.

And the long face of Joker. Always had the horse face, its genetics, cant change that, but it has got longer.

it is easy to work, they get bigger, stronger, faster, more endurance, and have lost alllll the cheeks, all the subcutaneous tissue from their faces. all red tissue and the connective white tissue.

the bigger players used to have full faces, and genetics.

now they just have androgens and cheekbones and jawlines of male models.

 

[blackcat]

meant to point out

there should be an inverse correlation between

i) size and bodyfat%, the bigger players, their genes should (rough rule of thumb) make them have more cheeks too. the non-functional body parts (the face) should also be bigger.

ii)size and endurance, bigger players (rough rule of thumb, the genetics) should tend to have less endurance

iii)speed and endurance, fast players blessed with type 1 muscle fibers should be less equipped for endurance


there should be a correlation, positive correlation between a player being able to endure a 5 set match in their youth, 18,19,20, and being able to play it out when they get older.

you should not see a player suddenly go from a player who could not see out the 4th set, to a player at 100% thru 12-10 in the fifth.

and when you hear the stories of great training camps, great off season working on the fitness, and Gil Reyes, think "Canary Islands".

I repeat to you folks who think we the clinic 12 engage in conspiracy:

"fooled me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

 

[zebedee]

Ok, well maybe the physiognomy experts can. I can't.

I do remember an expert witness once, an osteopath, in one of the libel trials between John McVicar, the journalist and Linford Christie, saying that he could confidently detect whether an elite athlete was doping or not purely from that athlete's physical appearance and that in his opinion, based on physiognomy, something in the region of 70% of top field & track athletes were doping. We're talking about 15 years ago here.

Perversely enough, at the time Linford Christie won damages against McVicar who had accused Christie of doping but years later Christie was caught positive with a huge dose of nandrolone - estimated at 100 times normal body levels.

 

[Parker]

yeah we can.

compare the physiques and forms of players today compared to three decades ago.

Joker would be like McEnroe, same Murray.

And the long face of Joker. Always had the horse face, its genetics, cant change that, but it has got longer.

it is easy to work, they get bigger, stronger, faster, more endurance, and have lost alllll the cheeks, all the subcutaneous tissue from their faces. all red tissue and the connective white tissue.

the bigger players used to have full faces, and genetics.

now they just have androgens and cheekbones and jawlines of male models.

Three decades ago they were using wooden racquets, though. No matter how big and strong they were there was only so much they could do with power alone. Agility and guile were more important. As the racquets got better, those attributes got less important and the power guys took over. You don't see serve and volleyers anymore - that's down to the racquets more than the drugs.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Ok, well maybe the physiognomy experts can. I can't.

I do remember an expert witness once, an osteopath, in one of the libel trials between John McVicar, the journalist and Linford Christie, saying that he could confidently detect whether an elite athlete was doping or not purely from that athlete's physical appearance and that in his opinion, based on physiognomy, something in the region of 70% of top field & track athletes were doping. We're talking about 15 years ago here.

Perversely enough, at the time Linford Christie won damages against McVicar who had accused Christie of doping but years later Christie was caught positive with a huge dose of nandrolone - estimated at 100 times normal body levels.

Victor Conte also said in an interview with Joe Rogan that was the subject of a thread on here that he could tell if guys were juiced based off looking at a photo.

It's not 100% reliable but it sets off massive alarm bells when clay courters have big muscles or when athletes change their body dramatically mid career.

I would expect an Olympic gymnast to have big muscles regardless of whether or not they juice.

In soccer Cristiano Ronaldo seems dodgy to me because he's literally three times the size of wingers from the past like George Best.

 

[zebedee]

Federer and Nadal both look full-faced to me and I've seen them both in real life, close up. Murray and Djokovic look more 'made' but that could be merely genetics. All these guys have physical trainers though which players before never had to the degree they have today. Murray, for example, travels with a strength coach (Matt Little) and a movement coach (Jez Green) so he's going to show the effects of the regime these two guys put him under. And this era is unprecedented. Players have never, before now, had that constant degree of personal attention to their conditioning, diet and so on. Sure, players before trained physically but never to this degree of detail.

We could spend pages debating the relative effect of modern racquets, strings, player conditioning and homogenised court surfaces. The simple way I look at it is this:- What the modern racquets and slower court surfaces have done is create a predominant gamestyle which prevails pretty much everywhere, playing from the back of the court. Players can now stay on the baseline or even behind it and command the point simply by patrolling along or behind the baseline. The prevailing quality they need to succeed in this is endurance as they get engaged in interminable baseline exchanges, keeping them out on court for long periods. And this is where modern tennis lends itself so beautifully to peds as it's the drugs that boost the endurance, permit the intense training required outside competition, as well as assist recovery both from tiredness and injury. The advantages of peds for a high level tennis player are so, so easy to see.

 

[Caruut]

It was only meant as whimsy. My clumsy ways, perhaps.

I was rather taken aback by your response, but no offence intended.

Not sure either what a triple jumper was doing on a tennis thread.

I think it was about weedy guys bench pressing lots of stuff. Largely irrelevant.

Interesting little bit of info: Rafa Nadal's two biggest lows in form (excluding injuries) have been right after Puerto and right after the ITF announced that they'd do blood testing.

 

[Parrulo]

Victor Conte also said in an interview with Joe Rogan that was the subject of a thread on here that he could tell if guys were juiced based off looking at a photo.

It's not 100% reliable but it sets off massive alarm bells when clay courters have big muscles or when athletes change their body dramatically mid career.

I would expect an Olympic gymnast to have big muscles regardless of whether or not they juice.

In soccer Cristiano Ronaldo seems dodgy to me because he's literally three times the size of wingers from the past like George Best.

indeed i also think ronaldo is dodgy(steroids and HGH?), only thing i can see in his defence is the fact that he lost a lot of agility needed for the fancy dribbles when he decided to gain muscle due to the more aggressive type of football played in england, becoming more of a power based player.

 

[zebedee]

I know speculation about peds in tennis is rife, but nobody really has any insight into the actual doping regime of a top player. I mean no one's been caught for a long time and there's never been any confessions ever, cycling-wise, as far as I know on which to form an accurate picture. Wayne Odesnik who was caught with HGH by Australian customs was completely ostracised by his fellow professionals when he supposedly gave ITF anti-doping 'useful information'. Murray was forthright in condemning 'snitchers'. Omerta runs right through the game and there's a lot of match fixing suspected as well. Very little information creeps out in the closed world of professional tennis. It's a totally different world to cycling when it comes to doping.

A player like Nadal for example might have been treated with HGH as a youngster/teenager without knowing about it perhaps, when it was realised by others that they were working with a special talent. He turned professional at sixteen, I think it was which is pretty amazing. Nowadays there aren't any teenagers left, not one, in the top ATP 100 players.

Evidence, such as it is is purely circumstantial. Sara Errani, for example, was revealed as working with del Moral - her doctor 'for everything' as she put it after she had been called in and warned off by the ITF. We are speaking here of a confirmed journeyman player. For years, she hovered around the mid-40's in the WTA world ranking list. Then she goes to work with one of cycling's magic doctors and bingo!, she goes on an amazing run, duffs up top ten players, rises to a top 10 position herself (world No 6 presently) and reaches the final of the French Open. When asked to explain her transformation, she puts it all down to a change of racquet!

Now with some focus on her, it's going to be interesting to see if the ITF regard her as an anti-doping target and what effect this might have on her world ranking. Or maybe a player like her can carry on juicing because there's stuff around that can be taken without detection. Who knows?

 

[Garry Allen]

Greg Baum has set those filthy cyclists straight while maintaining the purity that is top level tennis. I fear Greg Baum has not looked at the analysis at http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com.au/

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Greg Baum has set those filthy cyclists straight while maintaining the purity that is top level tennis. I fear Greg Baum has not looked at the analysis at http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com.au/

Horrible article.

If he's going to use an example of a clean athlete it would be much better to er on the side of caution and not use Djokovic as an example.

 

[zebedee]

This sort of article is standard practice for tennis, regrettably. However, the THASP site deserves great credit for almost single-handedly bashing away at the problem. It did in fact start to acquire some traction post Armstrong, in that press articles have started to appear on tennis doping, questioning the ITF's feeble regime. This evidently has had some effect on the ITF judging from the sea change in tests carried out on Djokovic and Nadal recently.

It appears that both he and Nadal have been singled out for targetted attention but really this level of testing needs to be routine for all players, not exceptional.

On the money side, the ITF are always saying they don't have the budget to do the job properly. However, when you consider that the grand slams are generating literally billions of dollars of revenue annually, where is the problem? It's scandalous that these tournaments don't cough up. The ITF needs to present its anti-doping proposals to the grand slams and simply say that this has to be funded as part of the licence given to run tournaments. They don't generate the money from Davis Cup to do this on their own. The parsimonious grand slams need shaking down and the ITF needs to retake control of the sport as presently it is anything but in charge. There's a whole load of quasi autonomous bodies like the ATP, WTA, Wimbledon and so on pulling the tennis strings, and anti-doping is being treated as a Cinderella almost.

With regard to strengthening its approach, in my view the ITF also needs to enforce further regulations on the ATP/WTA, far more than a simple whereabouts rule. They should make it a condition of becoming a professional player that the player formally commit not to dope and it ought to be compulsory for a player to register details of the medical doctor under whose care they submit themselves to and that information on player treatments is constantly disclosed. Then we can start to reassert some control over what these doctors do. The doctors should also be obliged to formally commit not to dope or administer any proscribed pharmaceutical.

I know that's intrusive and the players are constantly *****ing about lack of privacy and annoyance of being woken up for surprise tests but they need to be told in turn that, post-Armstrong, this is what has to be done for the good of the sport and all those who participate and watch. It's the price you pay for the privilege of becoming a multi-millionaire, no?

 

[unclem0nty]

I get the sense that post-Armstrong, sports journalists are getting progressively bolder in voicing their suspicions (or at least dropping ever more heavy-handed connective hints). A lot of uncomfortable moments for Djokovic in his press conference this morning (having just seen off Tomas Berdych with something approaching ease, on the back of his five-hour marathon vs Wawrynka).

Q. Tomas just said he thinks you’re the fittest player on the tour at the moment. Do you feel like that? Gilles Simon played four hours and could barely move against Andy.

Q. In the early part of your career you had a reputation for pulling out of matches because of injury. In retrospect, were we unfair to you or was there a point where you felt you had to be fitter?

Q. As a sportsfan, could you understand how it could be surprising for people to see?

NOVAK DJOKOVIC: You can go through different kinds of discussions about these things. I mean, the people who don’t know tennis, who have never been in those kinds of situations would not truly understand what the player has to go through, not just when you prepare for a Grand Slam, but also during a Grand Slam. After five hours of match, you need to really put a lot of time into recovery, different kind of recoveries. As I said, I understand that many people have many different views and opinions, and I respect that. But I’m doing everything that is legal, that is correct, that is natural that I can, possibly can in my power, and it’s working well.

Got to love the follow-up to that ropey old boll0cks:

Q. If you had not gone gluten free do you think you’d be able to do what you’re doing?

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-01-22/11395.php

 

[SundayRider]

yeah we can.

compare the physiques and forms of players today compared to three decades ago.

Joker would be like McEnroe, same Murray.

And the long face of Joker. Always had the horse face, its genetics, cant change that, but it has got longer.

it is easy to work, they get bigger, stronger, faster, more endurance, and have lost alllll the cheeks, all the subcutaneous tissue from their faces. all red tissue and the connective white tissue.

the bigger players used to have full faces, and genetics.

now they just have androgens and cheekbones and jawlines of male models.

Saying that having the jawline of male models indicates doping is such a ridiculous statement to make.