The Banesto Train in the mountains

[GJB123]

...you are absolutely right...I did not read the thread title I just looked at the post attached to it and have been playing off the super strong team reference contained there-in...

...so you are right...Banesto was no train just one the strongest teams the Tour has ever seen...

Cheers

blutto

I would even beg to differ there, but it was certainly a strong team, no disagreement there, Mr. Fudd.

So we are back to OP persisting the face of overwhelming opinion otherwise that there was such a thing as a Banesto train without offering a shed of proof of said train.

Regards
GJ

 

[blutto]

I just happened to come across this about the Banesto train. This is taken from one of the main Banesto domestiques Gerard Rue during the 93 Tour, source Cycle Sport magazine Oct 1993. Speaking about his role with Banesto.

'To stay with Miguel as long as possible. I crossed the Tourmalet one minute behind him and that was enough to allow me to get back on the descent, then on the Aubisque and Soulor I just led the group to prevent any attacks, after the descent from the Aubisque, Ariostea rode the final 50kms to protect Riis. Our work was only to control the mountains.'

'Sometimes you have to slow down and wait a little for team-mates, sometimes he will call on you to accelerate to prevent attacks. He will tell you to watch out and then you ride to prevent attacks'

'If I do the work I am meant to do and protect my leader as I should, then my job is done'

As I said how many times now, Banesto were all about protecting Indurain and controlling the tempo in the mountains. They rode defensively to prevents attacks before the final climb of the day. They never rode aggressively to try and drop eveyone on the final climb.

...that was their tactics...worked for Indurain and for Delgado before that...burn no matches unless needed...doesn't diminish from my contention it was a super strong team( and shows my memory was not that faulty)....and they had a proven finisher...

Cheers

blutto

 

[dancing on pedals]

...that was their tactics...worked for Indurain and for Delgado before that...burn no matches unless needed...doesn't diminish from my contention it was a super strong team( and shows my memory was not that faulty)....and they had a proven finisher...

Cheers

blutto

er no.
as i have tried to point out in my previous posts the indurain team got weaker as time went on - the team went from very strong in 1990 to capablele of holding on to the penultimate mountain on a difficult stage in 1995 and they always lost time in a ttt despite el rey driving them - have a look at the palamares!
thanks

 

[pmcg76]

...that was their tactics...worked for Indurain and for Delgado before that...burn no matches unless needed...doesn't diminish from my contention it was a super strong team( and shows my memory was not that faulty)....and they had a proven finisher...

Cheers

blutto

You seem to have some sort of comprehension problem here, nobody has doubted the strength of the Banesto team yet you seem to keep referencing it as if that is what is being debated.

This thread was started as a riposte to another thread which was discussing the Postal train that burned everybodys off Lance's wheel in the mountains and how there always seemed to be 3-4 Postal guys driving it up the final climb of the day until only a handful of riders were left.

ExRoadman or whatever got offended at this and decided to start this thread to prove Indurain was just as bad as Lance becasue Banesto had the exact same type of train as US Postal burning riders on the final climb each day. He wanted to prove posters were applying double standards as he has mentioned numerous times now.

However, depsite Banesto having a strong team in the mountains which regularly controlled the pace as Indurain was always in the lead before the mountains, they never rode like Postal in an effort to burn everyone off of their leaders wheel as they didnt need to do so. As a result this thread has been a failure as it failed to do what it set out to do.

Simple really and no amount of trying to move the goalposts is going to change that fact.

 

[VeloCity]

Another thing to keep in mind was that USPS riders routinely kicked **** in TT's - and especially the TTT - as well as dominating in the mountains. I don't recall any team ever being so supremely strong in both disciplines at the same time, ie dominant in both the TT's and the mountains. La Vie Claire, perhaps, in the days of Hinault, Lemond, and Bauer? Maybe T-Mob or ONCE to some extent?

In TTT's, Banesto was 10th in '91, 7th in '92 and '93, 3rd in '94 and '95. USPS during the Armstrong years never finished lower than 2nd - they were 2nd in '00 and '02 (no TTT in '01), and 1st in '03, '04 (by a full minute), and '05 (as Discovery).

Just makes the USPS years seem even more farcical.

 

[Exroadman24902]

Another thing to keep in mind was that USPS riders routinely kicked **** in TT's - and especially the TTT - as well as dominating in the mountains. I don't recall any team ever being so supremely strong in both disciplines at the same time, ie dominant in both the TT's and the mountains. La Vie Claire, perhaps, in the days of Hinault, Lemond, and Bauer? Maybe T-Mob or ONCE to some extent?

In TTT's, Banesto was 10th in '91, 7th in '92 and '93, 3rd in '94 and '95. USPS during the Armstrong years never finished lower than 2nd - they were 2nd in '00 and '02 (no TTT in '01), and 1st in '03, '04 (by a full minute), and '05 (as Discovery).

Just makes the USPS years seem even more farcical.

see there again you imply Indurain's wins are more worthy of respect. You seem ok with some maybe doping after all

 

[dbrmuz]

I'm remind of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

see there again you imply Indurain's wins are more worthy of respect. You seem ok with some maybe doping after all

I think you'll have similar company supporting the notion of Velocity being okay with some doping as you do the existence of a mighty Banesto train.

 

[GJB123]

Is this thread still going? Seriously?

 

[dbrmuz]

Is this thread still going? Seriously?

Well the posts keep getting shifted.

 

[Franklin]

for every thread that continues the double standards you measure the grand tour winners against, that shows how some of you are not anti-doping per se, but simply fickle anti-dopers, picky about which doper you want caught, I will remind you USPS were not the first to build super strong teams for the mountains.

Jeff Bernard, Gerard Rue...amazing how well Jeff started to ride again once he joined Banesto. Did the Banesto team maybe bringt them modern methods ???

You got completely handed your behind when you tried this with Indurain himself, now you fetch even farther and try his team... You are so bad at this that you are being slamdunked everytime you try... don't you have colleagues who are more knowledgeable?

Poor corporate shill... Sucks doesn't it when the ground is showing up faster and faster.

Goodbye...

 

[Franklin]

I've got a poster somewhere of Hinault and another Gitaine rider (Bernard?) in a two man break in the Giro, it's a great picture with the snow and the mountains etc.

I think that must be Jean-Rene Bernadeau.

Jeff never rode for Gitane.

 

[Franklin]

see there again you imply Indurain's wins are more worthy of respect. You seem ok with some maybe doping after all

`Well, considering:

1. we are all in agreement Miguel had to do it alone
2. Miguel didn't act like a psychopath
3. There is no hard evidence about Miguel (or backdated tue's)

Sure, I respect Miguels wins a lot more than Lance.

U Mad?

 

[hrotha]

3. There is no hard evidence about Miguel (or backdated tue's)

There is, for salbutamol.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'm remind of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Pretty good metaphor for ExRoadie's pointless tenacity. Merely a flesh wound!

 

[pmcg76]

There is, for salbutamol.

How did he swing that one again. I dont remember correctly, I know there was a lot of controversey even before his case because it was only illegal in France or something. I think it was legal in inhaler form and as Indurain had a prescription for it, there was no problem. Is that it. Sounds like the backdated TUE

Wasnt Salbutanol eventually taken of the list at some point also.

I know Peter Meinert, Bo Hamburger and Laurent Madoaus were also done for salbutamol in 93 at Tour de l'Avenir I think but again they skated or received very short bans becasue they tested positive in France.

 

[L'arriviste]

How did he swing that one again. I dont remember correctly, I know there was a lot of controversey even before his case because it was only illegal in France or something. I think it was legal in inhaler form and as Indurain had a prescription for it, there was no problem. Is that it. Sounds like the backdated TUE

Wasnt Salbutanol eventually taken of the list at some point also.

I know Peter Meinert, Bo Hamburger and Laurent Madoaus were also done for salbutamol in 93 at Tour de l'Avenir I think but again they skated or received very short bans becasue they tested positive in France.

Absolutely right. He tested positive at Senlis during the Tour de l'Oise on April 15th, 1994. Salbutamol was not then on the UCI banned list.

Source: Independent. 30 August 1994

In this Corriere della Sera article of the same date and entitled "Indurain Positive Innocent", the cases of both Rominger and Indurain are discussed. Given the circumstances of every official and his dog weighing in on the issue, I find the subheading "Doping chaos" rather apt. How little things have changed.

 

[hrotha]

How did he swing that one again. I dont remember correctly, I know there was a lot of controversey even before his case because it was only illegal in France or something. I think it was legal in inhaler form and as Indurain had a prescription for it, there was no problem. Is that it. Sounds like the backdated TUE

Obviously, if you put it that way it doesn't sound like a backdated TUE. My understanding, however, is that he didn't have a prescription and got a TUE after the fact.

 

[indurain666]

Miguelone pretty much did it by himself during the mountains. Aparicio, Mirand, Bernard, P.Indurain, Gonzalez-Arrieta, Armendia, Mauri were not mountain goats. Good train on flat, rolling or crosswind terrain though.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

How did he swing that one again. I dont remember correctly, I know there was a lot of controversey even before his case because it was only illegal in France or something. I think it was legal in inhaler form and as Indurain had a prescription for it, there was no problem. Is that it. Sounds like the backdated TUE

Wasnt Salbutanol eventually taken of the list at some point also.

I know Peter Meinert, Bo Hamburger and Laurent Madoaus were also done for salbutamol in 93 at Tour de l'Avenir I think but again they skated or received very short bans becasue they tested positive in France.

I think some of those positives were due to the level - legal at inhaled levels with a TUE, but guys were getting popped due to levels that would only arise if they were taking it orally.

 

[Hugh Januss]

see there again you imply Indurain's wins are more worthy of respect. You seem ok with some maybe doping after all

I said this over 100 posts ago. I don't like to speak for others but this is the difference between the two as far as I am concerned.

For the hundredth time, THEY BOTH DOPED. Only one went on and on about how "clean" he was and how he, as a cancer survivor, would never ever (or is that never never never) put anything dangerous in his body, and how we just had to believe in miracles, and the cadence and the weight loss and the hookers. The other one at least had the good grace to mostly just keep his pie hole shut. So no, respect not equal. Now go take your meds.

I think others will agree with me on that. You, Mr. X from your unique perspective of having your head firmly placed somewhere where the sun don't shine, choose not to see it that way.
You started this loser of a thread on the failed hypothesis that Indurian's teams did the same job for him in the mountains as Lance's teams did. That theory has been soundly disproven, but all along your real point was that clinic regulars unfairly single out Armstrong.
Well fair or unfair there are many good reasons to do so, so this discussion is ended.
Have a nice day.

 

[VeloCity]

see there again you imply Indurain's wins are more worthy of respect. You seem ok with some maybe doping after all

Some teams were more ridiculous and absurd than were others. Gewiss in '94, for eg. But looking back, imo USPS pretty much takes the cake, at least when it came to the Tour.

 

[L'arriviste]

I know Peter Meinert, Bo Hamburger and Laurent Madoaus were also done for salbutamol in 93 at Tour de l'Avenir I think but again they skated or received very short bans becasue they tested positive in France.

Just wanted to follow up on this, though I admit it's a bit OT.

Hamburger's salbutamol positive was indeed from the 1993 Tour de l'Avenir, but as for Madouas his appears to have been a few months later, at the 1994 Tirreno-Adriatico.

Finally, a conundrum. Several folks cite the Meinert positive on forums etc when discussing US Postal's pedigree, and he does appear to have been inactive for a period at that time (presumably due to the suspension), but where an actual substance behind the positive is conjectured, this tends to be cortisone rather than salbutamol. Meinert's knee problems are described by LA himself in his book. Anyway, I'm having trouble confirming all of this with a solid source (i.e. news rather than anecdote). If anyone knows of a contemporary report, please PM me.

 

[perico]

One guy does not a train make. The difference with USPS was that often there were 3-4-5 USPS riders in the final group selection on the final climb. Don't recall ever seeing that with Banesto. One of the knocks against Indurain was that he rode so conservatively in the mountains (ie "boring"), but part of that was because he was so often isolated and had to ride defensively.

And then, of course, there was 2004, when 5 USPS riders finished in the top 11 (and 6 of the top 16) in the final ITT, after riding in support for Armstrong for 3 weeks. Don't recall that ever happening at Banesto, either, or any other team, ever, for that matter.

It's very difficult to find that information, but in 1986 La Vie Claire placed 4 riders in the top 10 in the final TT.

1986 Stage 20 TT Results
1. Bernard Hinault: 1hr 15min 36sec
2. Greg LeMond @ 25sec
4. Jean-François Bernard @ 2min 5sec
10. Andy Hampsten @ 3min 12sec
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1986.html

Couldn't find if any other riders placed after 10th, although I'd suspect that either Bauer or Ruttiman finished between 11-15th with their high GC placings that season.

I'd be pretty sure that Banesto placed 3-5 riders in the final TT in one of the years between 91-93 with Big Mig, Bernard, Delgado, De La Cuevas, etc...

 

[roundabout]

Wasn't there 10 riders per team at the time?