the "Bassons Incident"

[Mongol_Waaijer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jul/12/tour-de-france-cycling

A man who still depends on the sport for reputation and livelihood (who used "recovery therapy" himself) is hardly going to speak out and say that the reason his countrymen don't win anything is because the sport is rotten to the core, is he?

 

[Dude17]

The foreign teams had to explain this and the myth of the "lazy frenchman" was born. Muppets everywhere fell for it. Some "ultra muppets" even believe it to this day.

Hinault won his fifth and final Tour de France in 1985. And since then, French riders have struggled in his shadow and his last victory fades, the comparisons become increasingly humiliating. And Hinault, now 54, makes no attempt to ease the pain as he constantly lambastes the recent generation of cyclists as lazy and generally whiney.

"I'm outraged," he says. "It's easier for French riders to say that the others are doped than to go off and train."

Damned foreigner Hinault. How dare he call French cyclists lazy? Doesn't he know the history of the sport? For goodness sakes, can't the "ultra muppet" get over it?

 

[Dude17]

A man who still depends on the sport for reputation and livelihood (who used "recovery therapy" himself) is hardly going to speak out and say that the reason his countrymen don't win anything is because the sport is rotten to the core, is he?

No, he isn't, but to claim that the myth of the "lazy French cyclist" is spouted only by foreigners to show why they are better, is being a bit disingenuous.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Damned foreigner Hinault. How dare he call French cyclists lazy? Doesn't he know the history of the sport? For goodness sakes, can't the "ultra muppet" get over it?

Like many ex riders (with the exception of Lemond) Hinault has become a corporate goon.

He even stands on the podium every afternoon at the Tour acting as though it isn't a farce.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This is unsatisfactory. Where is the link for your statement that Chavanel's remarks in the interview were because he wanted a better doping programme? This does not answer this question. Why would you make a claim without providing a link?



You'll have to clarify what you don't understand about the statement. What do you not understand?



It's impossible to link to all broadcast interviews in the ToF. Do you have a link where I can get to all broadcast interviews in the global media during the 2008 tour in all languages and translations? If you do then I will be happy to provide it to you. However the interview from the wikipedia page confirms this in more diplomatic language.



You will find plenty of quotes from riders about this. You must be new to the sport and not heard about this before. Chavanel's admission is a case in point.

My quote below says may be one of the reasons. The link I provided shows the murky past of the DS he is now under....

The quote from Chavanel mentions develop - he may mean getting a better opportunity as a team leader - or dare I say it that the team has a better 'programme" in place.

Unfortunatley - your comments were quite specific. The reason a link would be useful is I think it would be a slur on French cycling to have to rely on your memory of cycling history.

Here is a linkto all cycling TV stations you requested, thanks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is Cofidis a French team? I seem to recall they have had a few problems along this line.

To be fair to "pmcg76" they acknowledged the Cofidis team in the piece you quoted.

Overall, the French teams over the last decade other than Cofidis have had very little connections with drugs or scandals, Not saying they are all clean but why are they rarely linked to anthing when you look at teams like Phonak, Kelme, T-Mobile, Astana, Liberty Seguros.

 

[luckyboy]

the French teams still do train and some train very hard. It's just they've relied on the drug thing as an excuse for too long, and at times have been too quick to use that as a crutch.

What are they going to say? That is the excuse because that is the truth.

 

[issoisso]

I trust Cofidis' intentions. I think they've proven them after the incident with Moncoutié's family member, the leak and the contracts.

The reaction may be a little slow, but their intentions seem honourable to me.

 

[issoisso]

Bernard Hinault is the last French rider to win the Tour. With respect I think he knows more about it more than you guys. You can try to smear him all you want but it won't change that fact.

Go take it up with Bernard if you think you know better than him. All I can do is provide the source, and that is what I have done.

This would be the Bernard that constantly clutches at any argument he can to prove he's the best french rider ever? The guy who loves to belittle every other french rider, from Anquetil to present day? I'd say we can't really trust him there

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It was funny two years ago when there were lots of drug busts during the Tour, and the French media were once again blaming foreigners, and then that French rider got done for testosterone. Who can tell me his name?

If it was for testosterone then I presume you mean Christian Moreni?

I dont believe the French media were blaming foreigners- but if they were it was probably to do with the fact that Moreni is Italian.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They were certainly blaming the foreign teams for not doing enough internal testing and claiming all riders on French teams couldn't get away with it due to their vigorious checks. It turned out they were wrong. You can ride on a French team and dope, thus they had egg on their face.

The French teams had only all just done a sit down protest at the beginning of the stage for a few minutes. What a bunch of t***s.

Who is they?? And so what -you can ride on any team and dope.
What has that to do with Christophe Bassons being forced out of the sport?

 

[krebs303]

What has that to do with Christophe Bassons being forced out of the sport?

Please stay on topic. It's about the weather right?

 

[Anonymous]

You, as well as most of your libellous conspiracy theorists who dominate this forum, do not know what you are talking about, as usual. You never bother to check any of your facts and very recklessly use quotations. I was an airline pilot and captain for over 30 years and did a lot of my flying in Europe. Except for July and August, the weather in Spain is much better than in France. This can easily be confirmed by checking the "climat mondial" records on http://www.meteofrance.fr. I have also lived in France for most of the last 8 years and can confirm that the weather is pretty crappy for most of the year.

Hey, send Lance a letter or twitter or whatever you fanboys do to communicate with The Great One Balled Fraud and tell him to sue. PLEASE! If it is indeed "libellous" (though the word is "libelous"), then tell him to sue. There are plenty of people saying the same thing, some more famous than others, so tell him to pull his lawyer off the shelf and sue away.

 

[Franklin]

BPC, the score is hilarious if also really really sad.

- Wrong teams
- Unproven quotes which are hammered by full quotes
- Been proven flat out wrong on weather paterns

And now you say Moreni is French

I would love to discuss things with you if you at least try to get the facts before you post. Check things on google, then make a statement. People will start to take you a lot more serious and would actually try to talk to you intead of dismiss you out of hand.

 

[pmcg76]

To be fair to "pmcg76" they acknowledged the Cofidis team in the piece you quoted.

It is amazing how the guy(Oldnell) failed to see the part 'except Cofidis' in my post. I never stated French teams 100% clean either but were cleaner.

But then he and BPC have of course failed to address the most relevant questions I posed, to find riders from teams like Lfdjeux/Boguyes Telecom/Credit Agricole/AG2R who have been involved or linked to drugs over the last 10 years. I can only think of Baden Cooke, Dimitri Fofonov and Francisco Mancebo, none of whom are French. Not even all these guys were proved to be doping. There are others like Vinokourov, Kasheckin or Caucchioli(again not French) who previously rode for French teams but were busted much later. If I am missing some, please correct me.

Surely in a decade of cycling there should have been far more stories, rumours etc if there were serious doping programes at teams similar to Cofidis. Either teams like Lfdjeux and Boguyes Telecom are better at hiding the doping or are cleaner.

The one thing I have heard from several pros is that foreign teams are more professional than French teams, everything is better organised. Whether this relates to doping or other factors is a mute point. Former Irish pro Mark Scalnon alluded to the idea the French teams were maybe not the best professionally and riders could be petty, he was with AG2R. However he also pointed to doping as a major reason why he quit the sport, he couldnt see the point of riding clean just to finish 10th or whatever because other teams were doping.

In relation to the overall scenario, I think the French teams may not be as well organised/run as other teams and the French attitude may not help but the doping issue is still a major barrier to improving performances. Philippe Gilbert & Thomas Lokvist were 2 guys who had promising results at Lfdjeux, went to foreign teams & improved but they havent developed into world beaters just yet. I like to think they are 2 clean guys.

For me, the 'Badger' is still very much part of the pro peloton and is more unlikely to focus on the doping issue, it is much easier to blame the lazy French.

 

[Anonymous]

It is amazing how the guy(Oldnell) failed to see the part 'except Cofidis' in my post. I never stated French teams 100% clean either but were cleaner.

But then he and BPC have of course failed to address the most relevant questions I posed, to find riders from teams like Lfdjeux/Boguyes Telecom/Credit Agricole/AG2R who have been involved or linked to drugs over the last 10 years. I can only think of Baden Cooke, Dimitri Fofonov and Francisco Mancebo, none of whom are French. Not even all these guys were proved to be doping. There are others like Vinokourov, Kasheckin or Caucchioli(again not French) who previously rode for French teams but were busted much later. If I am missing some, please correct me.

Surely in a decade of cycling there should have been far more stories, rumours etc if there were serious doping programes at teams similar to Cofidis. Either teams like Lfdjeux and Boguyes Telecom are better at hiding the doping or are cleaner.

The one thing I have heard from several pros is that foreign teams are more professional than French teams, everything is better organised. Whether this relates to doping or other factors is a mute point. Former Irish pro Mark Scalnon alluded to the idea the French teams were maybe not the best professionally and riders could be petty, he was with AG2R. However he also pointed to doping as a major reason why he quit the sport, he couldnt see the point of riding clean just to finish 10th or whatever because other teams were doping.

In relation to the overall scenario, I think the French teams may not be as well organised/run as other teams and the French attitude may not help but the doping issue is still a major barrier to improving performances. Philippe Gilbert & Thomas Lokvist were 2 guys who had promising results at Lfdjeux, went to foreign teams & improved but they havent developed into world beaters just yet. I like to think they are 2 clean guys.

For me, the 'Badger' is still very much part of the pro peloton and is more unlikely to focus on the doping issue, it is much easier to blame the lazy French.

The Badger may really mean the French who refuse to 'prepare' properly. It seems as though "lazy" could be a code word for the press and fans.

 

[Deagol]

Thanks to everyone who made serious replies to the original question. It is very interesting to see the story discribed in greater detail than I have been aware of previously.

Not all Americans fall into the trap of bashing the French. Not all of us are mislead into that way of thinking.

Also, the trolling poster here, if his intent is to boost public support of LA, is IMO accomplishing exactly the opposite of that aim.

There is a saying that comes to mind: (paraphrased) "It's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you are a fool, then to open it and prove them correct"

 

[issoisso]

It was funny two years ago when there were lots of drug busts during the Tour, and the French media were once again blaming foreigners, and then that French rider got done for testosterone. Who can tell me his name?

Maybe it was a rider on Cofidis rather than a French rider. Do we remember?

Moreni was one of the guys named in the affair with Moncoutié's sibling, so in retrospect it was hardly a surprise.

 

[pmcg76]

I think the thread got seriously sidetracked with the weather debate. On Lance in Nice, Procycling gave a video away with their first ever issue about Lances return to pro cycling. It was made at his breathtaking pad in spring 99 I still have it. At the time, Lance was having a lot of rennovatons done to the house, I remember him moaning about the workmanship levels of the French and about how great the weather was for training.

The French got strict on health checks, etc in 99 but these were more focused on French teams & riders. Lance was still on the comeback trail so outside of the English speaking media, was still not big news. Once he won the Tour however, he got the hell out of town and I just never figured that out. Here he was spending what I am sure was substantial money on a beautiful home in Spring only to leave after July.

I also remember him using the line about him living in 'stricter anti-doping' France as a defence against accusations of doping. This was later negated by Frankie Andreu admitting to taking EPO in 99 because where was Frankie living at the time? Nice, France. Frankie and Kevin Livingston were Lances regular training buddies and friends in Nice.

At the time, most of US Postal were already based in Girona, Hincapie, Hamilton, Jemison, Vaughters, Hoj but Lance and the others chose to live in France so I never understood why he hightailed it after he won the Tour.

 

[LMaggitti]

Given the (apparent) ease in which even current, more stringent testing can be evaded, I think that we should be very skeptical of assuming that the French peleton is or was particularly clean.

Sometimes the people who want to claim that lack of doping explains poor French performance of late sound very much like the defenders of Lance who promote HIM as a paragon of clean riding.

Point being that it's one thing to give riders the benefit of the doubt. It's another to, in the current environment, hold ANY rider or nation up as an exemplar of clean riding.

 

[runninboy]

Bernard Hinault is the last French rider to win the Tour. With respect I think he knows more about it more than you guys. You can try to smear him all you want but it won't change that fact.

Go take it up with Bernard if you think you know better than him. All I can do is provide the source, and that is what I have done.

I didnt think u wanted to go down this road but here goes
If u believe Hinault U r asking us to believe an entire nation of cyclists has gravitated to Laziness & sloth. Not 1 Frenchman has fouind the capacity to work hard.
Fair enough you have now removed the individual from the equation.
Soooo Lance must have doped because it is a well known fact that since he started winning the tdf the US has become fatter & more sedentary.
Since his weight loss & results were counter to the American culture of Sloth we are forced to conclude he cheats
The only way individuals exist in conjunction with Hinaults statement would be that thousands of French cyclists collectively & independently came to the same conclusion.
Highly unlikely
If Bassons is correct and Lance is not Legit we can conclude that cycling is made up of many individuals of different abilities, mindset(including cheating)nationalities and cultures.
I chose Bassons theory as more plausible

"no you came here for an argument..."

 

[Dude17]

I didnt think u wanted to go down this road but here goes
If u believe Hinault U r asking us to believe an entire nation of cyclists has gravitated to Laziness & sloth. Not 1 Frenchman has fouind the capacity to work hard.
Fair enough you have now removed the individual from the equation.
Soooo Lance must have doped because it is a well known fact that since he started winning the tdf the US has become fatter & more sedentary.
Since his weight loss & results were counter to the American culture of Sloth we are forced to conclude he cheats
The only way individuals exist in conjunction with Hinaults statement would be that thousands of French cyclists collectively & independently came to the same conclusion.
Highly unlikely
If Bassons is correct and Lance is not Legit we can conclude that cycling is made up of many individuals of different abilities, mindset(including cheating)nationalities and cultures.
I chose Bassons theory as more plausible

"no you came here for an argument..."

The game is set up to show the futility of an individual's effort... (Roller Ball, the James Caan version)

Bassons wasn't just singling out Lance. He was calling out all the top performers. He was pushed out of the race and ridiculed by many.

Does anyone know what he's doing these days?

 

[Digger]

The game is set up to show the futility of an individual's effort... (Roller Ball, the James Caan version)

Bassons wasn't just singling out Lance. He was calling out all the top performers. He was pushed out of the race and ridiculed by many.

Does anyone know what he's doing these days?

As far as I know, he works with the French Ministry for Sports and Culture. He also gives talks about the doping problem in cycling, as well as having a book published in French in the past couple of years.

 

[pmcg76]

As far as I know, he works with the French Ministry for Sports and Culture. He also gives talks about the doping problem in cycling, as well as having a book published in French in the past couple of years.

I think you are correct, he was interviewed by one of the Engish speaking magazines in the last few years and that was his job.

 

[bianchigirl]

BPC links, links, links and facts, facts, facts please. The nonsense that the French are 'arrogant' and 'nationalistic' about the race is utter and complete bollox. You clearly know very little about the history and traditions of the race, it's cultural significance and the French character. Talking as someone who lived in the heartland of French cycling for every one of Armstrong's Tour wins I can really only sit here and laugh at such uninformed drivel. You're as likely to see Coppi venerated in a French bar as the Badger because the French love champions - it is sheer projection to claim that they don't like Armstrong because he has dominated 'their' race. You really need to stop drinking the Lance Koolaid and start thinking for yourself, reading French forums, reading French media (in the original) and perhaps then you'll have some opinions that are informed and interesting instead of making laughable assertions like Chavanel having been a member of the AG2R team.

My neighbour used to wear a yellow top every day of the race and would run up the lane clanging a cow bell if one of her favourites won - since her favourites were just about every member of the peloton, that cowbell got a good work out each year. I was at the last TT in the 99 Tour with an American friend - we watched the end of the stage in a bar and he was practically carried out of the door such was the wave of positive emotion for the 'Texain'. I've seen stage departs and finishes and stood by the road with pique niqueing families and dogs and old pros and surly teens and the welcome for the race and the MJ has never been less than chalereuse, whoever's shoulders it was on. But then that's what happens in the real world of the race not the Armstrong mediated distortion.

As for Bassons, Hinault had this to say 'Bassons was wrong to say that he was clean and the others were dirty...He said they were driven by money but wasn't he paid for his articles? And I read he tripled the number of contracts he got for criteriums so he's not as white as all that'
A propos de Christophe Bassons et de ses démêlés avec Lance Armstrong : "Bassons a eu tort de dire qu'il était propre et que les autres étaient sales (...). Il a dit que les autres étaient mus par l'argent, mais s'il a fait ces articles, c'est bien qu'il était payé pour le faire ? Et j'ai lu qu'il avait multiplié par trois ses contrats dans les critériums, c'est donc qu'il n'est pas si blanc que ça." (L'Equipe 24/07/1999 - rapporté dans Sport & Vie n°56 de Sept/Oct 1999)
He makes quite a habit of defending omerta.