The Caleb Ewan vs. Fernando Gaviria Thread

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Think the bigger issue is Orica having 3 GC riders - Com 2019 and its more likely one of the GC guys will leave.

That may well happen but, in reality, that actually simplifies the GC picture. The GC man for Giro will most likely return for Vuelta whilst the other rides TDF.

The issue with ORS & Ewan is, and would continue to be, that he is labour intensive in order to obtain optimal results at big peak season races (rather than cheap early season wins). That means significant dilution from the GC campaign.

As yet, we do not know if he WILL reach the level of being a "marquee rider". His range for one day race wins looks fairly narrow if we are talking WT level (Hamburg, MSR only in a very "soft" year, Ride London only if they don't race Box Hill hard) so that leaves GT stage wins and I just think ORS would be cutting their own throats by trying to seriously chase two goals that may prove conficting/non-complementary.

Let him go to another team where he WILL be the main main and be given the full support ...... and then he'll either make it or he won't.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Ewan still hasn't got a real spanking, but once Gaviria got fit, it has looked pretty easy so far. Amazing speed and judgement today.

 

[yaco]

Sprinters live for the next day - Wouldn't rule out tomorrow and Friday is a definite chance.

 

[Akuryo]

So far Gaviria has won 6 races where both of them where at the start line and Ewan has not won a single time when Gaviria was present. Pretty clear to me.

 

[Vroome.exe]

Re:

So far Gaviria has won 6 races where both of them where at the start line and Ewan has not won a single time when Gaviria was present. Pretty clear to me.

Yep and according to some people Ewan is much faster in this Giro
It's still too early to conclude who is faster, but Gav has always been beating Ewan since they became pro.

 

[portugal11]

This thread looks like the thread of sagan vs EBH

 

[Screecher]

Re:

This thread looks like the thread of sagan vs EBH

Gaviria is no Sagan. He does nothing in real classics. He´s just another sprinter.

 

[Akuryo]

Re: Re:

This thread looks like the thread of sagan vs EBH

Gaviria is no Sagan. He does nothing in real classics. He´s just another sprinter.

He rides on cobbles for a little over a year and already has some decent results. Among them twice in the top 10 of Gent-Wevelgem. I won't say that he is the next Boonen but to say that he is just another sprinter is too harsh!

 

[AlexNYC]

Re: Re:

This thread looks like the thread of sagan vs EBH

Gaviria is no Sagan. He does nothing in real classics. He´s just another sprinter.

He rides on cobbles for a little over a year and already has some decent results. Among them twice in the top 10 of Gent-Wevelgem. I won't say that he is the next Boonen but to say that he is just another sprinter is too harsh!

Also, and just as importantly, he really wants to be a cobbles rider. I think he has the tools to eventually become a strong contender on most cobbled classics, but time will tell. He's only 23, let's not forget.

 

[rei_da_montanha]

What a beast.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

So far Gaviria has won 6 races where both of them where at the start line and Ewan has not won a single time when Gaviria was present. Pretty clear to me.

Great stat. Apart from most probably being faster, he's also way more versatile. Obvious is obvious.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

This thread looks like the thread of sagan vs EBH

Gaviria is no Sagan. He does nothing in real classics. He´s just another sprinter.

He meant the difference in the comparison.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

So after all the Gaviria bashers the first days, it's now Gaviria 2, Ewan 0.

Not unexpected for me. Ewan might be fast, Gaviria is far more complete.

 

[DFA123]

So after all the Gaviria bashers the first days, it's now Gaviria 2, Ewan 0.

Not unexpected for me. Ewan might be fast, Gaviria is far more complete.

Yep, Gaviria is clearly a different class than Ewan, but I don't think it's been a fair battle this Giro so far.

Quickstep 2, Orica 0 would be a more telling summary. Quickstep have handed Gaviria two wins on a plate, while Orica, with their split team, have let Ewan down a bit.

 

[carton]

Both are highly gifted, massively driven athletes. I think they're both going to do well. Gaviria seems like the more talented, complete rider, but by the same token Ewan knows where his path lies where Gaviria isn't quite as focused.

What this discussion really shows, though, is that we quite often enjoy tomorrow more than today. No posts on the Gaviria thread today at all vs. more than twenty posts here, on the day he won his second Grand Tour stage. No judgement, I'm as guilty as anyone, just food for thought.

 

[perico]

Beginning to look like the days of Cavendish vs Tyler Farrar.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Think the bigger issue is Orica having 3 GC riders - Com 2019 and its more likely one of the GC guys will leave.

That may well happen but, in reality, that actually simplifies the GC picture. The GC man for Giro will most likely return for Vuelta whilst the other rides TDF.

The issue with ORS & Ewan is, and would continue to be, that he is labour intensive in order to obtain optimal results at big peak season races (rather than cheap early season wins). That means significant dilution from the GC campaign.

As yet, we do not know if he WILL reach the level of being a "marquee rider". His range for one day race wins looks fairly narrow if we are talking WT level (Hamburg, MSR only in a very "soft" year, Ride London only if they don't race Box Hill hard) so that leaves GT stage wins and I just think ORS would be cutting their own throats by trying to seriously chase two goals that may prove conficting/non-complementary.

Let him go to another team where he WILL be the main main and be given the full support ...... and then he'll either make it or he won't.

I don't think that Ewan is any more labour intensive than Gaviria, it's more that QS are focused on stage wins with GC secondary through Jungels. Meanwhile Orica are focusing on GC with Yates and stage wins are secondary. If Ewan had Docker and Hayman there to bash their way through the lead out things could be quite different.

 

[Escarabajo]

I just saw the finale again and noticed that the leadout man for Ewan was awful. Just looking back and slowing down all the time. Terrible. Ewan is better off trying to sprint on his own than following his teammates.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Ironically ORS will probably have a more-highly credentialed "lead-out" train at the TdF....but without a sprinter

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Think the bigger issue is Orica having 3 GC riders - Com 2019 and its more likely one of the GC guys will leave.

That may well happen but, in reality, that actually simplifies the GC picture. The GC man for Giro will most likely return for Vuelta whilst the other rides TDF.

The issue with ORS & Ewan is, and would continue to be, that he is labour intensive in order to obtain optimal results at big peak season races (rather than cheap early season wins). That means significant dilution from the GC campaign.

As yet, we do not know if he WILL reach the level of being a "marquee rider". His range for one day race wins looks fairly narrow if we are talking WT level (Hamburg, MSR only in a very "soft" year, Ride London only if they don't race Box Hill hard) so that leaves GT stage wins and I just think ORS would be cutting their own throats by trying to seriously chase two goals that may prove conficting/non-complementary.

Let him go to another team where he WILL be the main main and be given the full support ...... and then he'll either make it or he won't.

I don't think that Ewan is any more labour intensive than Gaviria, it's more that QS are focused on stage wins with GC secondary through Jungels. Meanwhile Orica are focusing on GC with Yates and stage wins are secondary. If Ewan had Docker and Hayman there to bash their way through the lead out things could be quite different.

Therein lies the key point, Gaviria and his sprint campaign ARE QS's prime GT focus at this GT with Jungels' being very much secondary and allowed to do his own thing. Ewan isn't not the prime focus for ORS, not should he be as he doesn't yet warrant it as against the GC argument.

Has his team really cost him so far ? A case could be made for stg 1 but so was every other sprint team. Stage 3 - QS gave everyone a tactical lesson. Stage 5 - both he and his support got washed away and weren't strong enough to hold position.

GT stages will most likely be his avenue to making the grade as a marquee sprinter but if he's to do that, he's going to need to be the main man for his team; as Gaviria is for QS, Greipel at Lotto Soudal and the like. ORS realistically cannot do this AND support the likes of Chaves & the Yates (who HAVE delivered GC podiums/top 10s).

Therefore, he and his manager should already be shopping around for a new home

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

I just saw the finale again and noticed that the leadout man for Ewan was awful. Just looking back and slowing down all the time. Terrible. Ewan is better off trying to sprint on his own than following his teammates.

He can get away with losing his man's wheel in early season races but come peak season, he cannot afford to do this as if he hasn't good position; he hasn't the strength to fight his way through if there's no clear path

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I just saw the finale again and noticed that the leadout man for Ewan was awful. Just looking back and slowing down all the time. Terrible. Ewan is better off trying to sprint on his own than following his teammates.

He can get away with losing his man's wheel in early season races but come peak season, he cannot afford to do this as if he hasn't good position; he hasn't the strength to fight his way through if there's no clear path

Ultimately today's failure was Ewan's so he needs to take the blame - I posted at the time of Chaves injury, that the better option was to switch Ewan to the TDF and leave the two Yates for Giro - Still think this was a better option and would have lead to stronger team support for both the TDF and the Giro.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

I just saw the finale again and noticed that the leadout man for Ewan was awful. Just looking back and slowing down all the time. Terrible. Ewan is better off trying to sprint on his own than following his teammates.

He can get away with losing his man's wheel in early season races but come peak season, he cannot afford to do this as if he hasn't good position; he hasn't the strength to fight his way through if there's no clear path

Ultimately today's failure was Ewan's so he needs to take the blame - I posted at the time of Chaves injury, that the better option was to switch Ewan to the TDF and leave the two Yates for Giro - Still think this was a better option and would have lead to stronger team support for both the TDF and the Giro.

Think it'd still be "6 of one/half a dozen of the other". TLAS would be coming up against a stronger field of sprinter and be getting his hindquarters smashed in a far more brutal fashion than has been the case here.

Yes, you COULD co-opt guys like Impey and or Albasini for leadouts and ,yes, they would probably be more savvy than what he's had at the Giro but, in the end, they would be coming up against more full trains, more peak sprinters ..... and he hasn't the strength to go mano on mano against those guys at their peak.

As for the Tour, if Chaves is fit then let it be he and SY for GC and allow the odd outlet, if the stages look favourable, for one ofthe puncheurs to have a bash on specific selective finishes. Send Cort to the Vuelta along the same lines as last year. As for the thought of sending all three GC men to the Vuelta ,.,. they've gotta stop smoking that stuff !!

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I just saw the finale again and noticed that the leadout man for Ewan was awful. Just looking back and slowing down all the time. Terrible. Ewan is better off trying to sprint on his own than following his teammates.

He can get away with losing his man's wheel in early season races but come peak season, he cannot afford to do this as if he hasn't good position; he hasn't the strength to fight his way through if there's no clear path

Ultimately today's failure was Ewan's so he needs to take the blame - I posted at the time of Chaves injury, that the better option was to switch Ewan to the TDF and leave the two Yates for Giro - Still think this was a better option and would have lead to stronger team support for both the TDF and the Giro.

Think it'd still be "6 of one/half a dozen of the other". TLAS would be coming up against a stronger field of sprinter and be getting his hindquarters smashed in a far more brutal fashion than has been the case here.

Yes, you COULD co-opt guys like Impey and or Albasini for leadouts and ,yes, they would probably be more savvy than what he's had at the Giro but, in the end, they would be coming up against more full trains, more peak sprinters ..... and he hasn't the strength to go mano on mano against those guys at their peak.

As for the Tour, if Chaves is fit then let it be he and SY for GC and allow the odd outlet, if the stages look favourable, for one ofthe puncheurs to have a bash on specific selective finishes. Send Cort to the Vuelta along the same lines as last year. As for the thought of sending all three GC men to the Vuelta ,.,. they've gotta stop smoking that stuff !!

Three GC guys to the Vuelta is an interesting proposition when you consider stage one is a TTT - You won't win the Vuelta in the TTT but you can lose it - 3 GC in a TTT is a dangerous exercise.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

I just saw the finale again and noticed that the leadout man for Ewan was awful. Just looking back and slowing down all the time. Terrible. Ewan is better off trying to sprint on his own than following his teammates.

He can get away with losing his man's wheel in early season races but come peak season, he cannot afford to do this as if he hasn't good position; he hasn't the strength to fight his way through if there's no clear path

Ultimately today's failure was Ewan's so he needs to take the blame - I posted at the time of Chaves injury, that the better option was to switch Ewan to the TDF and leave the two Yates for Giro - Still think this was a better option and would have lead to stronger team support for both the TDF and the Giro.

Think it'd still be "6 of one/half a dozen of the other". TLAS would be coming up against a stronger field of sprinter and be getting his hindquarters smashed in a far more brutal fashion than has been the case here.

Yes, you COULD co-opt guys like Impey and or Albasini for leadouts and ,yes, they would probably be more savvy than what he's had at the Giro but, in the end, they would be coming up against more full trains, more peak sprinters ..... and he hasn't the strength to go mano on mano against those guys at their peak.

As for the Tour, if Chaves is fit then let it be he and SY for GC and allow the odd outlet, if the stages look favourable, for one ofthe puncheurs to have a bash on specific selective finishes. Send Cort to the Vuelta along the same lines as last year. As for the thought of sending all three GC men to the Vuelta ,.,. they've gotta stop smoking that stuff !!

Three GC guys to the Vuelta is an interesting proposition when you consider stage one is a TTT - You won't win the Vuelta in the TTT but you can lose it - 3 GC in a TTT is a dangerous exercise.

Precisely !! They've all improved markedly in this aspect; Chaves even to the point that he was pulling turn in last year's Vuelta TTT; but you want to be giving away as little deficit as possible. My view would be AY & Chaves (if he's finished the TDF OK).