The Caleb Ewan vs. Fernando Gaviria Thread

[Orbit501]

Re: Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

Definitely a smarter rider and blessed with quite the team for instances like today. Gaviria was really in pole position to win the stage, when his team established the move for him. Instead of facing those who'd convincingly beaten him in the previous stages, Gaviria basically only had to beat a puncheur, a lead-out man and a sprinter with no racing in his legs. I'm certain, Ewan would have won if it'd been a normal bunch sprint.

Exactly this ^

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

I doubt Gav is slower on a mano a mano boulevard sprint, I really hope we at least get to see them go head to head sonon.

Has to be said Ewan looks significantly faster in a flat sprint

 

[yaco]

Reckon Ewan did well to stay in the second group - Has previously struggled with his limited exposure to cross winds - Hope that Gaviria and Ewan both finish the Giro, as you can't beat miles in your legs.

 

[Vroome.exe]

Re: Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

I doubt Gav is slower on a mano a mano boulevard sprint, I really hope we at least get to see them go head to head sonon.

Has to be said Ewan looks significantly faster in a flat sprint

Well prior to this Giro Gaviria beat Ewan everytime they faced each other. I wouldn't call Ewan faster based on two stages where they didn't even sprint against each other.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

I doubt Gav is slower on a mano a mano boulevard sprint, I really hope we at least get to see them go head to head sonon.

Has to be said Ewan looks significantly faster in a flat sprint

Well prior to this Giro Gaviria beat Ewan everytime they faced each other. I wouldn't call Ewan faster based on two stages where they didn't even sprint against each other.

Ewan beat Gaviria on stage 1, although both knew that they weren't sprinting for the win. Ewan has also beaten Greipel twice this Giro in sprints, just not for the win. I don't think that there is a lot between the two.

Gaviria was a little lucky that Jungels was so attentive today, but he did beat some decent sprinters in that group very easily.

On a totally unrelated topic, Nathan Haas seriously needs to start racing smarter. He has some serious form ATM, but keeps wasting it in stupid race situations.

 

[SeriousSam]

Criminally underrated Gaviria: 1
Massively overrated Ewan: 0

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

Would tend to agree with this. I think there is little doubt that Gaviria has a much wider skill set.

On current form, Ewan looks quicker. Both on top form, that may be less clear but still maybe a marginal lean to Ewan. However, Gavriria is the stronger and more adaptable rider and more likely to win over a wider range of finish scenarios.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

Would tend to agree with this. I think there is little doubt that Gaviria has a much wider skill set.

On current form, Ewan looks quicker. Both on top form, that may be less clear but still maybe a marginal lean to Ewan. However, Gavriria is the stronger and more adaptable rider and more likely to win over a wider range of finish scenarios.

Would definitely agree with this. Gaviria is looking like an even faster Freire or smarter Hushovd, while Ewan seems to be what McEwen would have been if Rabobank didn't waste him in his early years.

Either way, exciting times!

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete

Would tend to agree with this. I think there is little doubt that Gaviria has a much wider skill set.

On current form, Ewan looks quicker. Both on top form, that may be less clear but still maybe a marginal lean to Ewan. However, Gavriria is the stronger and more adaptable rider and more likely to win over a wider range of finish scenarios.

Would definitely agree with this. Gaviria is looking like an even faster Freire or smarter Hushovd, while Ewan seems to be what McEwen would have been if Rabobank didn't waste him in his early years.

Either way, exciting times!

Maybe. I'll give the McEwen/Ewan comparison some credence on the score that Ewan seems to have better than average bike handling skills. Also fair comparison with regards to likely career trajectory; both more men for GT stage wins than one day classics .

Whether he'll ever have the smarts/cunning and capacity to "freelance" win in sprints against the very "big boys"; the jury's out on that one. Robbie was also strong enough to cope with and be able to dish out the "argy bargy"; again I think Ewan at a significant disadvantage here and not sure just how far he can narrow the gap.

Where I WILL agree is the need for Ewan to leave his original team in order to progress/be the "number one man"/key priority for his team just as McEwen needed to leave Rabo

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

I think it's hilarious how in these types of discussions every time one of the guys has a significant result there are a few of their fanboys going: "oh yeah, you see, my guy is the best and the other one is just super overrated, told you so." I hope Ewan and Gaviria keep on exchanging impressive rides in this Giro, so that every time somebody can post here that now finally it is clear that the guy who did well that day is the best and the other one is just overrated and then the next day the other one can win and the other group of fanboys can claim the opposite. The Ewan vs. Gaviria discussion has always been a senseless one with both of them getting either overhyped and people talking smack about the other guy, but these last few days have been gold, with all the fanboyistic hype and senseless trash talk of the other rider.

 

[Akuryo]

True ... but still .... all hail Fernando!

 

[delbified]

these 2 are mighty quick, contesting stage wins and still maturing. dunno how that makes them over-hyped. can't wait to see more contests between them.

 

[diego721]

I'm happy for Gavriria obviously, he said in the post-race interview that he lost weight in home for the GT, and the days before this he just didn't had the legs, he was even wondering about the fact if saving him self in Colombia with the food too much was a mistake, now he think otherwise.
Until the Giro Gaviria has bossed Ewan in every race my memory recaps, I think is a very interesting fight for the two great sprinter of the next decade, and we are just lucky to see it from the beginning, lets see where this take us.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

I think is a very interesting fight for the two great sprinter of the next decade, and we are just lucky to see it from the beginning, lets see where this take us.

That's why I started this thread. The results these two have been posting at their age are stupendous - they're still eligible to ride L'Avenir! Like you, I think we are witnessing two all time great sprinters starting their careers at the same time.

 

[The Hegelian]

What the thread tells me is that Ewan has developed a lot this year.

Last year it was looking a bit like the Sagan vs Boasson Hagen thread. Two talents start at the same time, only one ripens. i.e. Gav was looking like the next big superstar, Ewan like he was way out of his depth at WT level. Does anyone remember last years Giro? Was a better quality sprint field, but Ewan was struggling to hit the top 10. Greipal and Kittel were just smashing him.

Now he's a genuine elite WT sprinter. Can get through tougher/longer stages/races and still be a real threat at the finale. So I say kudos for that development - happened pretty quick.

I think Gav is going to win monuments, Ewan plenty of GT stages. Chapeau to both of them.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

What the thread tells me is that Ewan has developed a lot this year.

Last year it was looking a bit like the Sagan vs Boasson Hagen thread. Two talents start at the same time, only one ripens. i.e. Gav was looking like the next big superstar, Ewan like he was way out of his depth at WT level. Does anyone remember last years Giro? Was a better quality sprint field, but Ewan was struggling to hit the top 10. Greipal and Kittel were just smashing him.

Now he's a genuine elite WT sprinter. Can get through tougher/longer stages/races and still be a real threat at the finale. So I say kudos for that development - happened pretty quick.

I think Gav is going to win monuments, Ewan plenty of GT stages. Chapeau to both of them.

With regards to survivability, this Giro may answer some of those issues. His endurance appears to have improved but we'll need to see how he handles the harder stages to come. Whether he can survive through to the finish of a GT remains to be seen. Its something he's going to need to acheive if he ever wants to win on the Champs Elysses.

No real issue with your final paragraph but would add one qualifier. For Ewan to do so, he will need to find the right team' one where he is "the main man" with regards to their GT goals and the requisite manpower support. ORS cannot realistically do so given its changed focus and nor should they engage in such a dilution of focus. One hopes he, and his manager, are already attuned to this

 

[Robert5091]

As an aside, can we all not chip in to send Gaviria to a hairdresser?

 

[Valv.Piti]

I still think Gaviria is the significantly more talented rider, but Ewan indeed has improved this year, but I really don't think we have seen the best from Gaviria this Giro. Brian Holm said he has had some stomach problems leading up to the race which explains the subpar performances early on.

Lets see.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

What the thread tells me is that Ewan has developed a lot this year.

Last year it was looking a bit like the Sagan vs Boasson Hagen thread. Two talents start at the same time, only one ripens. i.e. Gav was looking like the next big superstar, Ewan like he was way out of his depth at WT level. Does anyone remember last years Giro? Was a better quality sprint field, but Ewan was struggling to hit the top 10. Greipal and Kittel were just smashing him.

Now he's a genuine elite WT sprinter. Can get through tougher/longer stages/races and still be a real threat at the finale. So I say kudos for that development - happened pretty quick.

I think Gav is going to win monuments, Ewan plenty of GT stages. Chapeau to both of them.

With regards to survivability, this Giro may answer some of those issues. His endurance appears to have improved but we'll need to see how he handles the harder stages to come. Whether he can survive through to the finish of a GT remains to be seen. Its something he's going to need to acheive if he ever wants to win on the Champs Elysses.

No real issue with your final paragraph but would add one qualifier. For Ewan to do so, he will need to find the right team' one where he is "the main man" with regards to their GT goals and the requisite manpower support. ORS cannot realistically do so given its changed focus and nor should they engage in such a dilution of focus. One hopes he, and his manager, are already attuned to this

What team would be better for Ewan? He has very decent support at Orica. They can do a proper lead out - It's just they started a little early once and the sprints haven't been very regular yet.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

What the thread tells me is that Ewan has developed a lot this year.

Last year it was looking a bit like the Sagan vs Boasson Hagen thread. Two talents start at the same time, only one ripens. i.e. Gav was looking like the next big superstar, Ewan like he was way out of his depth at WT level. Does anyone remember last years Giro? Was a better quality sprint field, but Ewan was struggling to hit the top 10. Greipal and Kittel were just smashing him.

Now he's a genuine elite WT sprinter. Can get through tougher/longer stages/races and still be a real threat at the finale. So I say kudos for that development - happened pretty quick.

I think Gav is going to win monuments, Ewan plenty of GT stages. Chapeau to both of them.

With regards to survivability, this Giro may answer some of those issues. His endurance appears to have improved but we'll need to see how he handles the harder stages to come. Whether he can survive through to the finish of a GT remains to be seen. Its something he's going to need to acheive if he ever wants to win on the Champs Elysses.

No real issue with your final paragraph but would add one qualifier. For Ewan to do so, he will need to find the right team' one where he is "the main man" with regards to their GT goals and the requisite manpower support. ORS cannot realistically do so given its changed focus and nor should they engage in such a dilution of focus. One hopes he, and his manager, are already attuned to this

What team would be better for Ewan? He has very decent support at Orica. They can do a proper lead out - It's just they started a little early once and the sprints haven't been very regular yet.

What ????? He has only one fully designated support rider (Mezgec), maybe another "half" with Edmondson but he is essentially in his neo-pro year and this GT is purely experience. Compare that to the situation of Greipel at Lotto Soudal & Gaviria at Quick Step.

ORS has 3 of the prime up & coming GC talents in Chaves & the Yates twins; over the next year or two they would be criminally negligent if they were to dilute their support by having 1/3 or more of the team solely focused on a bunch sprinter.

Not saying that they won't take a quick guy to GTs but that quick guy must (1) have survivability to last full distance; (2) have some legitimate utility to ride support when called upon for the main GC guys & (3) not be reliant on a "train"/be able to freelance in group sprints. Cort looked like he could fit that bill at last year's Vuelta; as yet Ewan remains more resource intensive and offers negligible support utility

There will be hue and cry from certain sectors if ORS were to let Ewan go ..... but it frankly makes sense for both parties. They can throw him support in one week tours where he can pick up cheap wins esp early season. His scope as regards one day races is limited; he DID win Hamburg last year but I'M struggling to see what other WT one dayers where he is likely to be a regular contender. He doesn't look to be really compatible to cobbles; he needs a very soft version of MSR to be at the finish (maybe 1 year in 5-6?) but the rest look too tough ..... and the team has/or is likely to have better credentialled contenders for these races.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Ewan might do well at Cannondale.
They have no GC contenders or A-grade sprinters
Frankly they need someone who can get a few wins
They could give Ewan a fair lead-out (maybe he could bring Kluge too)
They have Aussie connections with partial ownership and a few riders on the roster too.
Ewan should be within budget - surely he'd cost less than some of the under-performers they have at present

 

[Jspear]

Re:

Ewan might do well at Cannondale.
They have no GC contenders or A-grade sprinters
Frankly they need someone who can get a few wins
They could give Ewan a fair lead-out (maybe he could bring Kluge too)
They have Aussie connections with partial ownership and a few riders on the roster too.
Ewan should be within budget - surely he'd cost less than some of the under-performers they have at present

No! Cannondale turns everyone in their team to crap.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

What the thread tells me is that Ewan has developed a lot this year.

Last year it was looking a bit like the Sagan vs Boasson Hagen thread. Two talents start at the same time, only one ripens. i.e. Gav was looking like the next big superstar, Ewan like he was way out of his depth at WT level. Does anyone remember last years Giro? Was a better quality sprint field, but Ewan was struggling to hit the top 10. Greipal and Kittel were just smashing him.

Now he's a genuine elite WT sprinter. Can get through tougher/longer stages/races and still be a real threat at the finale. So I say kudos for that development - happened pretty quick.

I think Gav is going to win monuments, Ewan plenty of GT stages. Chapeau to both of them.

With regards to survivability, this Giro may answer some of those issues. His endurance appears to have improved but we'll need to see how he handles the harder stages to come. Whether he can survive through to the finish of a GT remains to be seen. Its something he's going to need to acheive if he ever wants to win on the Champs Elysses.

No real issue with your final paragraph but would add one qualifier. For Ewan to do so, he will need to find the right team' one where he is "the main man" with regards to their GT goals and the requisite manpower support. ORS cannot realistically do so given its changed focus and nor should they engage in such a dilution of focus. One hopes he, and his manager, are already attuned to this

I don't think surviving to the end of a GT is relevant at all for Ewan, especially at this age, and maybe at any age.

He could just do it Cippollini style and hang out on the beach after taking a few big early stages.

A stage win or two + maybe an early pink jersey would have been ample pay off for OS - and with an ounce more luck he would have already had all of that.

As for the team - you could be right. It must be annoying for them that when they had a great lead out train of tt's and ex-pursuiters, Matt Goss was their useless sprinter. Now they have 3 incredibly talented young climbers and a marquee sprinter....it's possible to balance those contrary aims in GT's, but not easy. I think OS has been good for Ewan's development, but he's arrived now.

Probably depends on how ambitious he is - he could attract big money + big responsibility to deliver big wins. But potentially wiser to keep developing without that kind of pressure. In that sense, OS is a good fit.

 

[JoeD1997]

Really interested to see if both of these guys can finish this Giro and see how they go in the remaining sprint stages.

Not to try and alter the topic of the thread here, but given we have had Cav v Greipel v Kittel v Sagan (with other sprinter occasionally besting them), I feel like Dylan Groenewegen (he really needs a nickname so we no longer need to try and spell that name every time ) can actually challenge these two guys on more than just the odd occasion in the future.

I think Gaviria and Ewan are possibly faster, but LottoNL have really invested time in developing a train for Groenewegen and he proved at Eneco last year that he can already beat the fastest guys, although I know Gav wasn't at that race. Comparing his results to Gaviria is hard as the two haven't raced together that often, but Groenewegen has beaten Ewan at that Eneco stage and for two separate Yorkshire stages. I do genuinely believe Groenewegen can compete with these guys over perhaps the next decade and can maybe even develop into a Classics rider like Gaviria has stated he wishes to do. Opinions?

 

[yaco]

Think the bigger issue is Orica having 3 GC riders - Come 2019 and its more likely one of the GC guys will leave.