The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Who's the 10 year old boy you keep talking about?

Sniper thinks the lad in the video I posted is a 10 year old.

the two of you seem to be deflecting.
sad sniper.
"keep talking about"? i said that once. (eyebrowraising smiley)
I made a couple of points regarding those two rebuttals (from the kid and from A. Rasmussen), but if you don't want to discuss it, no worries.


p.s. don't know how to insert Smilies no more.

But it looks like you are deflecting when you call the guy a kid while he obviously isn't.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

in that clip neineinei linked, you see both boogerd and rasmussen take the cancellara case very seriously, but both can't imagine doing it themselves and both haven't ever heard any rumors about it during their carreers.
it might well be that canc was pretty much an einzelgaenger as far as motorization is concerned.
Cassani's contactperson (who said there had been a pro using the motorized bike) could have been referrring to fabian, and so could the guys in the CIRC report. it may thus have been an isolated case.

By the way, Boardman warned the UCI for motorization in 2009. (earlier i erroneously said it was in 2000).
It's a must-read for D-queued and others skeptic about the feasibility of motorized bikes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... r-ago.html

What about the noise it makes?
Would it be cancelled out by supporters, or what is the explanation that Boonen or anybody else riding next to it didn't hear it? It was quite distinctive in the video clip about mechanical doping.

 

[ray j willings]

I rode next to a guy riding a electric bike, I could not really hear anything. I think any noise would be easy to mask inside a frame or hub.

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

I rode next to a guy riding a electric bike, I could not really hear anything. I think any noise would be easy to mask inside a frame or hub.

I got passed by an e-bike the other day, going uphill.

Could've sworn the guy looked like Spartacus*.

Ok, maybe not Fabian because that would be stretching things. Given the higher likelihood of Ryder in the neihborhood, it was probably him and he was probably looking for somewhere he could drop the bike and not have it do donuts.

Very little noise, sure.

But, that huge disk thingamabob in the rear wheel and the big battery pack? I dunno.

Someone, somewhere might notice.

Dave.

*BTW - there are the following possible explanations for Fabian's otherwordly accelerations:

1. He is tremendous natural strength
2. He dopes
3. He has hidden the world's quietest electrical motor seamlessly into his bicycle frame with the world's most advanced battery pack and more advanced gearing than the segway. The entire combination adding less than 4 ounces/200 grams of weight so as to not compromise his ability to complete a race under his own power.
4. 1 & 2
5. 1 & 3
6. 2 & 3
7. All of the above
8. None of the above

I'm going to go with the obvious. YMMV

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Deflecting? I'm not even participating in the discussion.
You called him a boy a couple of times. I was curious. That's all.

But it looks like you are deflecting when you call the guy a kid while he obviously isn't.

fair enough.
Having watched the clip several times again, I would now estimate he's approximately 18 years old, but he could be 19 or even 20.

to get back on topic, the point i was making is this: Ryder's wheels make an impact on the asphalt which could obviously reduce the spin of the wheels; furthermore he's still clipped on for a moment when on the ground, potentially providing additional counterspin. Does either that Spanish you-tuber or A. Rasmussen take those two factors into account? No they don't. I'll happily forgive that Spanish you-tuber, but A. Rasmussen should know better and was, imo, trolling, trying to kill rumors. Call it omerta if you will.
Would be happy to hear your thoughts, also if you disagree.

p.s. Agree wholly with Ray J Willings as far as the noise is concerned.

 

[danielovichdk2]

Re: Re:

I rode next to a guy riding a electric bike, I could not really hear anything. I think any noise would be easy to mask inside a frame or hub.

I got passed by an e-bike the other day, going uphill.

Could've sworn the guy looked like Spartacus*.

Ok, maybe not Fabian because that would be stretching things. Given the higher likelihood of Ryder in the neihborhood, it was probably him and he was probably looking for somewhere he could drop the bike and not have it do donuts.

Very little noise, sure.

But, that huge disk thingamabob in the rear wheel and the big battery pack? I dunno.

Someone, somewhere might notice.

Dave.

*BTW - there are the following possible explanations for Fabian's otherwordly accelerations:

1. He is tremendous natural strength
2. He dopes
3. He has hidden the world's quietest electrical motor seamlessly into his bicycle frame with the world's most advanced battery pack and more advanced gearing than the segway. The entire combination adding less than 4 ounces/200 grams of weight so as to not compromise his ability to complete a race under his own power.
4. 1 & 2
5. 1 & 3
6. 2 & 3
7. All of the above
8. None of the above

I'm going to go with the obvious. YMMV

1&2

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I rode next to a guy riding a electric bike, I could not really hear anything. I think any noise would be easy to mask inside a frame or hub.

I got passed by an e-bike the other day, going uphill.

Could've sworn the guy looked like Spartacus*.

Ok, maybe not Fabian because that would be stretching things. Given the higher likelihood of Ryder in the neihborhood, it was probably him and he was probably looking for somewhere he could drop the bike and not have it do donuts.

Very little noise, sure.

But, that huge disk thingamabob in the rear wheel and the big battery pack? I dunno.

Someone, somewhere might notice.

Dave.

*BTW - there are the following possible explanations for Fabian's otherwordly accelerations:

1. He is tremendous natural strength
2. He dopes
3. He has hidden the world's quietest electrical motor seamlessly into his bicycle frame with the world's most advanced battery pack and more advanced gearing than the segway. The entire combination adding less than 4 ounces/200 grams of weight so as to not compromise his ability to complete a race under his own power.
4. 1 & 2
5. 1 & 3
6. 2 & 3
7. All of the above
8. None of the above

I'm going to go with the obvious. YMMV

The Dutch commentator and ex-pro Maarten Ducrot said he'd never seen such an accelleration before in his life. And he wasn't kidding.
Look at the Paris Roubaix footage, do you see Cancellara apply any strength at all? He's just rollercoasting away from guys who are really banging there bikes (some out of the saddle).
If you've watched alot of cycling, and I know you have, how can you have any faith in that accelleration? It's not normal, hell it's impossible if you see how little strength he's actually applying.

 

[mrhender]

If this is the next big thing/commonly used then I'am done with ProCycling...

I can (to some extent) live with PED's but when it comes to motorized bikes....

That would be it for me...

 

[ray j willings]

I agree with sniper. The way he drops everyone looks unreal. Same as when he drops Boonen on the Murr "2010", Big Tom gets out of his seat but Fab just's pulls away seated and with no real effort. It looks unreal.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

If this is the next big thing/commonly used then I'am done with ProCycling...

I can (to some extent) live with PED's but when it comes to motorized bikes....

That would be it for me...

I agree. With PEDs, it's still their bodies doing the work. If they're racing mopeds... Feck me

 

[markene2]

Re: Re:

in that clip neineinei linked, you see both boogerd and rasmussen take the cancellara case very seriously, but both can't imagine doing it themselves and both haven't ever heard any rumors about it during their carreers.
it might well be that canc was pretty much an einzelgaenger as far as motorization is concerned.
Cassani's contactperson (who said there had been a pro using the motorized bike) could have been referrring to fabian, and so could the guys in the CIRC report. it may thus have been an isolated case.

By the way, Boardman warned the UCI for motorization in 2009. (earlier i erroneously said it was in 2000).
It's a must-read for D-queued and others skeptic about the feasibility of motorized bikes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... r-ago.html

What about the noise it makes?
Would it be cancelled out by supporters, or what is the explanation that Boonen or anybody else riding next to it didn't hear it? It was quite distinctive in the video clip about mechanical doping.

I thought i remembered that i read somewhere around the time right after the race that Guesdon heard a noice from Cancellaras bike. So i did a bit of digging a guess what i found again.

Cyclismag reported that a french rider said he heard a noice from Cancellaras bike at Flandern.

Source: http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5737


And also for those that said Breschel never had the same from after his spring campaign the same year as Cancellara, i found this little pice to, he was pissed of that he got the wrong bike from a mechanic!

http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/wielersport/20431511/__Breschel_boos_op_Saxo-ploegleiding__.html

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

It is possible to accept that motorized bike technology exists and has likely been used to cheat, and at the same time, see from the video that this could happen the way it did and that RH's bike does in fact only start moving once he unclips.

Both things can be true. There is nothing convincing to me about this particular incident.

Besides, if he did have a motor, why on earth would he have it on during a downhill. There's limited battery and power for sure.

agree the vid isn't proof of anything.
the point under discussion is that those two rebuttals by Rasmussen and the boy are plain stupid as they don't take the impact of the rear wheel into account nor the fact that Ryder was clipped in causing extra counterspin.

As for your question (why motor during downhill?), it's a very legitimate question of course, but has been asked (and answered) several times before (both here and in the Ryder thread). Imo there are two options:

1. Look at the Cassani vid again which shows you where the motor's activation button is, and look at the Cancellara slowmo vid again (where you see him clicking a button on his steering wheel shortly before accellerating). Now look at how Ryder's steering wheel hits the asphalt.

2. He accidentally switched on the motor during the descend, which may explain why he fell in the first place. When he noticed the accelleration, he decided to let himself fall. (Do you see any other reason why he may have fallen there the way he did?)

Thanks for the explanation, I haven't read it before.

That said, I think it's thin. Not convinced. Maybe he hit some gravel, who knows. It is an odd place to crash, but not that odd going around a corner fast on a downhill. I do think people have used the motorized bike, but I don't see this as an example. Possible but not convincing to me.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

It is possible to accept that motorized bike technology exists and has likely been used to cheat, and at the same time, see from the video that this could happen the way it did and that RH's bike does in fact only start moving once he unclips.

Both things can be true. There is nothing convincing to me about this particular incident.

Besides, if he did have a motor, why on earth would he have it on during a downhill. There's limited battery and power for sure.

agree the vid isn't proof of anything.
the point under discussion is that those two rebuttals by Rasmussen and the boy are plain stupid as they don't take the impact of the rear wheel into account nor the fact that Ryder was clipped in causing extra counterspin.

As for your question (why motor during downhill?), it's a very legitimate question of course, but has been asked (and answered) several times before (both here and in the Ryder thread). Imo there are two options:

1. Look at the Cassani vid again which shows you where the motor's activation button is, and look at the Cancellara slowmo vid again (where you see him clicking a button on his steering wheel shortly before accellerating). Now look at how Ryder's steering wheel hits the asphalt.

2. He accidentally switched on the motor during the descend, which may explain why he fell in the first place. When he noticed the accelleration, he decided to let himself fall. (Do you see any other reason why he may have fallen there the way he did?)

Thanks for the explanation, I haven't read it before.

That said, I think it's thin. Not convinced. Maybe he hit some gravel, who knows. It is an odd place to crash, but not that odd going around a corner fast on a downhill. I do think people have used the motorized bike, but I don't see this as an example. Possible but not convincing to me.

i'm not convinced either.
But the rebuttal by A. Rasmussen was pathetic.

I don't dare to guess how many have used it. I'm convinced only of Cancellara.
have you seen the footage? It's here, go to min. 3:20 and watch it till the end:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NXGTKnwGY
PR is hilarious. (an alien jump away from a group of full-gass followers, later that final similarly powerful jump where you see him clicking/switching in slow-mo and very rapidly distancing his follower)
And ToFl is similarly suspect. How's your dutch? Listen to the belgian commentator talking about Boonen's peak form and how Cancellara would think twice before attacking him. Lol, because 5 seconds later Cancellara leaves him for dead on the Mur, not even going out of the saddle, and immediately after doing that odd clicking/switching (which is shown clearly in slowmo in the footage). And there was the odd bike change before going into that final round.

 

[sniper]

still haven't seen the l'Equipe article.
Saw these two tweets about it:

Ufe @oufeh · Apr 2
Hungarian engineer Istvan Varjad claims he's been implementing motors in frames for pro riders since 1998. Says it's not detectable any more

Kathy LeMond @KathyLeMond · Apr 2
http://bicitruccata.com Website of Stefano from the L'Equipe article about the doped bike. First sold in 1998. Still selling today.

lol, that bicitruccata website shows the Cancellara footage as a type of propaganda for its product.
(I don't know why the English version of the website is all over the place as far as language is concerned, doesn't look very professional.)

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I thought i remembered that i read somewhere around the time right after the race that Guesdon heard a noice from Cancellaras bike. So i did a bit of digging a guess what i found again.

Cyclismag reported that a french rider said he heard a noice from Cancellaras bike at Flandern.

Source: http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5737


And also for those that said Breschel never had the same from after his spring campaign the same year as Cancellara, i found this little pice to, he was pissed of that he got the wrong bike from a mechanic!

http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/wielersport/20431511/__Breschel_boos_op_Saxo-ploegleiding__.html

cheers.
in the first link you posted, Frédéric Guesdon (Francaise des Jeux) is quoted saying "Cancellara crosses the Grammont in the saddle, it is a sickening spectacle." Indeed it is/was.

The French guy speaking about the noise of Cancellara's bike remains anonymous, but it's an interesting quote. Otoh, I dont think noise should be an issue. The bicitruccata website brags with the fact that the motor is completely silent.

 

[sniper]

the article is accessible here:
http://www.pressreader.com/france/lequi ... 5/TextView
my french is poor and I'm not understanding everything.

Hesjedal's bikespin 'goes against logic' and is said to have raised many eyebrows among journos (including 'notre correspondent a l'UCI).
The Breschel episode that Markene2 referred to is discussed as a very suspect case of changing bikes.
Leukemans is qouted as saying that Boonen had never climbed the Mur as fast as on that day when Cancellara left him for dead.
The article says film crews were not allowed to film Cancellara's bike after the finish of PR and CSC refused Italian police to check their bikes when on the way to Rome.
There's more, I'm not even halfway.
Will report more later, or maybe some French native can summarize?

 

[roundabout]

If I remember correctly, the Muur was climbed faster in 2011 than in 2010.

Must have been a moto gp race that year

 

[Cloxxki]

It's time UCI enforced a see-through frame for pro riding. Or a maximum weight of 5kg to discourage motorization.

 

[sniper]

Re:

If I remember correctly, the Muur was climbed faster in 2011 than in 2010.

if you'd have a link to that, that'd be great.

Must have been a moto gp race that year

..

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

in the first link you posted, Frédéric Guesdon (Francaise des Jeux) is quoted saying "Cancellara crosses the Grammont in the saddle, it is a sickening spectacle." Indeed it is/was.

The French guy speaking about the noise of Cancellara's bike remains anonymous, but it's an interesting quote. Otoh, I dont think noise should be an issue. The bicitruccata website brags with the fact that the motor is completely silent.

but theres a reason you climb the cobbles in the saddle

 

[blackcat]

if anyone is gonna go away in the saddle, and make it look so easy, it would be cancellara.

 

[sniper]

fair points, blackcat.
but what was he clicking/switching there just before he shoots off. The slowmo shows it clearly.
anyway, as the l'Equipe article also stresses, the rumors (within the peloton and UCI) started back in 2010 with Cancellara.
The rumors were so persistent that UCI started bike testing already at the TDF 2010, using a very expensive (rental) scanner.
(In fact, so expensive that they stopped using it next year. They did continue to check bikes, but using cheaper methods.)

 

[blackcat]

Re:

fair points, blackcat.
but what was he clicking/switching there just before he shoots off. The slowmo shows it clearly.
anyway, as the l'Equipe article also stresses, the rumors (within the peloton and UCI) started back in 2010 with Cancellara.
The rumors were so persistent that UCI started bike testing already at the TDF 2010, using a very expensive (rental) scanner.
(In fact, so expensive that they stopped using it next year. They did continue to check bikes, but using cheaper methods.)

well, matti breschel might be the weak point. or one of the wrenches(mechanics).

hey, where is TexPat. Ask Texpat. send him a personal message.

You see, if there is/was any likelihood of the motor, would Prance not have pursued this. Ofcourse, how does it relate to the particular frame of bike the teams are using each year? How long was Riis on Cervelo?

Are all bikes sufficiently designed with the columbus/dedaccai/reynolds tubing? well, we have moved to alu/carbonfibre for the last ~20 yrs. Are all teams tubing sufficient? top tube or down tube?

where are the weak points in the intelligence/confidentiality? where can you get the holes in the story, or real story from the support team? surely Cancellara if he won on this, could not have SUFFICIENTLY paid off everyone.

It is like 9/11 in terms of, there are sooooo many touchpoints. It would require a paper of repute to be willing to go to the press with something like this. Because the media are usually gatekeepers with stories on Armstrong and the lawyers and injunctions preventing it getting out.

I would be interested in reading the l'Equipe article translated in full if anyone can be so @rsed. ta.

 

[blackcat]

oh Sniper, and I already wrote in this thread, I thought the way Cancellara went away in Roubaix (not seeing the youtube or watching it for four years), on the asphalt out of the front group of about 20 riders, now, i) I could have misread it, because they all could have been softpedalling at 25miles an hour and ii)when Cancellara flies past them, he was coming from the back of them, and he might have only been at 30mph, and if anyone can look like they are freewheeling/softpedalling, in the saddle, at merely 30mph, it is indeed Spartacus, and iii) if may have looked "worse" because they just let him ride off the front without looking to get in his slipstream. and iv) even tho I thought it looked to easy and Spartacus must be putting out 500watts looking like he is doing a coffee shop soft pedal, he is probably only putting out half of that, and he can do that in the saddle quite easily.

because I am not a cyclist, it could be easy for me to misinterpret that Roubaix clip I saw, where it looked like Cancellera had the afterburners on when he was in the saddle, and looked like he was not au bloc or thumping the pedals. Well, he was not au bloc and had no reason to thump the pedals, but the 20 left in the group just let him ride off.

 

[sniper]

yeah, the article is a must-read for those who want to know how they get away with it.
if i understand correctly, a newer technique involves the cardiometer, which determines the extra watts the motor should provide. the motor in turn is placed in the pedal tubes. i'm not sure how the cardiometer is connected to the motor though.
it's pretty technical and my french is insufficient.
unfortunately you cannot even copy-paste it, therefore no google translate.
Maybe D-Queued can help us out?