The FTP Passport

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Mar 16, 2013
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ScienceIsCool said:
So release all your raw data and analysis so that we can evaluate it for ourselves. Tiny little snippets of pre-selected data don't show anything at all. You might as well show us some scribblings done in crayon for all the edifying it does.

John Swanson

AKA, "I don't actually care about power data, which is why I don't have a bunch of raw data and analysis already that i've been analyzing the past 10+ years. I'd rather spend my time accumulating 10,000 posts on a message board com paining about a bunch stuff I don't actually know anything about."

Guys, this stuff ain't new. If you actually cared about it, you wouldn't have to ask someone else to do the work for you.
 
Mar 16, 2013
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acoggan said:
It's not atypical, either (and this was a full-time athlete w/ a 5+ y training history). The simple fact of the matter is that some years some people have their **** together, and some years they don't. For example, here are data from another world-class rider who also came into cycling in their 20s from a different endurance sport. Years 5 and 6 I refer to as their "lost years", but even ignoring those years there is significant fluctuation.

i3vuyg.jpg

What endurance sport did they come in from? Their balance of 10 second power and FTP is excellent.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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acoggan said:
It's not atypical, either (and this was a full-time athlete w/ a 5+ y training history). The simple fact of the matter is that some years some people have their **** together, and some years they don't. For example, here are data from another world-class rider who also came into cycling in their 20s from a different endurance sport. Years 5 and 6 I refer to as their "lost years", but even ignoring those years there is significant fluctuation.
Whoa hold the fort everyone.... now we've got n=2! Sorry but published science trumps your unpublished cherries any day of the week.

Variability and predictability of performance times of elite cross-country skiers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23799826

Variability and predictability of finals times of elite rowers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21502896

Variation in performance times of elite flat-water canoeists from race to race.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20625193

Seasonal changes in power of competitive cyclists: implications for monitoring performance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16602165

Progression and variability of competitive performance of Olympic swimmers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15370491

Variability of competitive performance of distance runners.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11528349

With the exception of base phase power through to competitive phase in cyclists, not ONE single study from all of these concludes that the typical variabilility in competitive performance is in the range that can be expected from doping.

Besides didn't I already say that performance and power only can never be used to detect doping? Yes in fact I did say that. Haven't I stated for years on this forum that variability in performance can occur independently of doping due to training, illness, injury etc? Yes in fact I have. Does this disprove the published science that clearly shows the CV of competitive performance in elite athletes across a variety of sports is quite low? NO IT DOESN'T. Could the fact that CV in competitive performance is quite low (not disproven by your n=2) be exploited to raise doping red flags? Maybe but there are significant challenges.

You should have been a politician coggan. Webinars, forum posts and biased fb status updates might fool simpletons, but they don't fly with anyone who knows the science.
 
Apr 30, 2011
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acoggan said:
Just to beat the dead horse a little more: here are data from a world-class cyclist that everyone here is convinced was doping one year, but not the other:

33nusr5.jpg
Over 400 W/kg for more than 15'.....

I think that might indicate doping.
 
Mar 16, 2013
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Netserk said:
Over 400 W/kg for more than 15'.....

I think that might indicate doping.

Nice. Maybe that cyclist happens to be an insect that rides a mini bike?

As for the previous poster talking about performance changes that can be "expected", I think that ranges anywhere from dying in ones sleep to becoming a "mutant".

Just to reiterate, I love numbers/data. If y'all can figure out how to fund it I'd love for a power meter to be on every bike in every Grand Tour and Classic race. As a spectator it'd be a lot of fun.

Seems like it'd be cheaper to just give them all the proper storage equipment and require every PT rider to give a sample on video every single day. If something raises a red flag (outside of just being a pro cyclist!) then you have a sample to go test from every day. That's about as feasible as this FTP passport, yeah?
 
Jul 27, 2010
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jw1979 said:
Nice. Maybe that cyclist happens to be an insect that rides a mini bike?

Insects are able to do far better than that. Crickets, e.g., put out about 18,000 watts/kg. See http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthr...ket#post575652

Here are few more studies of relevance. They only scratch the surface of the subject, but if jw1979 and others are authorities in this area, they ought at least be able to post some links to studies that back up their claim that the variability is too great.

Int J Sports Med. 2012 Jan;33(1):18-25. doi: 10.1055/s-0031-1284340. Epub 2011 Nov 17.
Reliability of a high-intensity endurance cycling test.
O'Hara JP1, Thomas A, Seims A, Cooke CB, King RF.

Abstract
This study assessed the reproducibility of performance and selected metabolic variables during a variable high-intensity endurance cycling test. 8 trained male cyclists (age: 35.9 ± 7.7 years, maximal oxygen uptake: 54.3 ± 3.9 mL·kg - 1·min - 1) completed 4 high-intensity cycling tests, performed in consecutive weeks. The protocol comprised: 20 min of progressive incremental exercise, where the power output was increased by 5% maximal workload (Wmax) every 5 min from 70% Wmax to 85% Wmax; ten 90 s bouts at 90% Wmax, separated by 180 s at 55% Wmax; 90% Wmax until volitional exhaustion. Blood samples were drawn and heart rate was monitored throughout the protocol. There was no significant order effect between trials for time to exhaustion (mean: 4 113.0 ± 60.8 s) or total distance covered (mean: 4 6126.2 ± 1 968.7 m). Total time to exhaustion and total distance covered showed very high reliability with a mean coefficient of variation (CV) of 1.6% (95% Confidence Intervals (CI) 0.0 ± 124.3 s) and CV of 2.2% (95% CI 0.0 ± 1904.9 m), respectively. Variability in plasma glucose concentrations across the time points was very small (CV 0.46-4.3%, mean 95% CI 0.0 ± 0.33 to 0.0 ± 0.94 mmol·L - 1). Plasma lactate concentrations showed no test order effect. The reliability of performance and metabolic variables makes this protocol a valid test to evaluate nutritional interventions in endurance cycling.

Int J Sports Med. 2010 Jun;31(6):397-401. doi: 10.1055/s-0030-1247528. Epub 2010 Mar 18.
The power profile predicts road cycling MMP.
Quod MJ1, Martin DT, Martin JC, Laursen PB.

Abstract
Laboratory tests of fitness variables have previously been shown to be valid predictors of cycling time-trial performance. However, due to the influence of drafting, tactics and the variability of power output in mass-start road races, comparisons between laboratory tests and competition performance are limited. The purpose of this study was to compare the power produced in the laboratory Power Profile (PP) test and Maximum Mean Power (MMP) analysis of competition data. Ten male cyclists (mean+/-SD: 20.8+/-1.5 y, 67.3+/-5.5 kg, V O (2 max) 72.7+/-5.1 mL x kg (-1) x min (-1)) completed a PP test within 14 days of competing in a series of road races. No differences were found between PP results and MMP analysis of competition data for durations of 60-600 s, total work or estimates of critical power and the fixed amount of work that can be completed above critical power (W'). Self-selected cadence was 15+/-7 rpm higher in the lab. These results indicate that the PP test is an ecologically valid assessment of power producing capacity over cycling specific durations. In combination with MMP analysis, this may be a useful tool for quantifying elements of cycling specific performance in competitive cyclists.

Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1992;65(1):79-83.
Peak power output predicts maximal oxygen uptake and performance time in trained cyclists.
Hawley JA1, Noakes TD.

Abstract
The purposes of this study were firstly to determine the relationship between the peak power output (Wpeak) and maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) attained during a laboratory cycling test to exhaustion, and secondly to assess the relationship between Wpeak and times in a 20-km cycling trial. One hundred trained cyclists (54 men, 46 women) participated in the first part of this investigation. Each cyclist performed a minimum of one maximal test during which Wmax and VO2max were determined. For the second part of the study 19 cyclists completed a maximal test for the determination of Wpeak, and also a 20-km cycling time trial. Highly significant relationships were obtained between Wpeak and VO2max (r = 0.97, P less than 0.0001) and between Wpeak and 20-km cycle time (r = -0.91, P less than 0.001). Thus, Wpeak explained 94% of the variance in measured VO2max and 82% of the variability in cycle time over 20 km. We concluded that for trained cyclists, the VO2max can be accurately predicted from Wpeak, and that Wpeak is a valid predictor of 20-km cycle time.

Katch VL, Sady SS, Freedson P

Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise [1982, 14(1):21-25]
Type: Journal Article

The biological variation in maximum aerobic power (V O2max) was examined in four trained females and one trained male. An average of 8-20 repeat VO2max treadmill tests over a 2-4 wk period were performed on each subject (80 total tests). Biological variation (Si) in VO2max was computed as the standard deviation for the VO2max values for each individual, after subtracting net technological error (Se). Technological error was computed for each piece of equipment as the standard deviation of multiple trials. Results revealed that Si + Se amounted to +/- 5.6%. Biological variability accounted for 90% or more of this variability, while technological error accounted for less than 10%. In light of the magnitude of biological variation for VO2max, the necessity for securing control data when attempting to study training effects is pointed out.

The Laboratory Assessment of Endurance Performance in Cyclists
Susan R. Hopkins, Donald C. McKenzie
Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology, 1994, 19(3): 266-274, 10.1139/h94-022
ABSTRACT
Performance in endurance activities depends on maximal aerobic capacity and the ability to sustain a high percentage of over time. This study examined whether noninvasive laboratory measures would be valid predictors of endurance performance in an individual-start bicycle race (TT). Eight experienced male cyclists (age = 25.1 ± 3.3 years, weight = 75.0 ± 5.7 kg, ) performed a progressive incremental exercise test to exhaustion on a cycle ergometer. V02max, maximum power output, and ventilatory threshold were determined. Later the subjects completed a 40-km TT. Power output at the ventilatory threshold (VT watts) was correlated with race performance time and calculated power output during the competition (r = −0.81; r = 0.82). VT watts and V02max accounted for 75% of the variance between subjects (r = 0.91) in performance time. These data indicate that simple laboratory measures can predict TT performance in trained cyclists. Individual differences may be accounted for by motivation, aerodynamic position, and efficiency. Key words: exercise, laboratory methods, , athletes
 
Mar 16, 2013
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OK, mad respect for crickets.

Study 1: weekend warriors tested once a week for four weeks. Does that really tell us anything?

Study 2: So you want everyone to do a peak effort on the trainer or in training within 14 days of a big race? How does that work in with someone racing 80 days a year? Also, I don't see any details of how accurate this was for the 1-10 minute duration specified. They just say it fits in with their CP estimates.

Study 3: sounds like the sprinters should be winning all the 20K TTs!

Study 4: did you actually read this? It basically says VO2max power for top cyclists could vary 25w + or -. That would be 50watts total, which is just barely less than the difference between top men and women. It also says because of such biological variability you better make sure your equipment is flawless or you have a real mess on your hand trying to make sense of anything.

Study 5: wow, VT and VO2max are important for cyclists? This changes everything.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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jw1979 said:
OK, mad respect for crickets.

Study 1: weekend warriors tested once a week for four weeks. Does that really tell us anything?

Study 2: So you want everyone to do a peak effort on the trainer or in training within 14 days of a big race? How does that work in with someone racing 80 days a year? Also, I don't see any details of how accurate this was for the 1-10 minute duration specified. They just say it fits in with their CP estimates.

Study 3: sounds like the sprinters should be winning all the 20K TTs!

Study 4: did you actually read this? It basically says VO2max power for top cyclists could vary 25w + or -. That would be 50watts total, which is just barely less than the difference between top men and women. It also says because of such biological variability you better make sure your equipment is flawless or you have a real mess on your hand trying to make sense of anything.

Study 5: wow, VT and VO2max are important for cyclists? This changes everything.

In the first place, one of my main points was that the literature is not loaded with studies with elite racers arguing that variation in power values is large. That is why why these weekend warrior studies, which I agree are not what we want, predominate. If you disagree, if you know of all these studies with elite racers, why don't you post them? I really would like to see them, but while I have seen a few studies of elite riders, they don't test the variability, they simply make the measurements one time. Even so, they draw conclusions from them that imply they think the one-time measurement is meaningful, e.g.,

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2006 Sep;46(3):361-5.
Physiological differences of elite and professional road cyclists related to competition level and rider specialization.
Sallet P1, Mathieu R, Fenech G, Baverel G.

Peinado AB, Benito PJ, Díaz V, González C, Zapico AG, Álvarez M, Maffulli N, Calderón FJ. Discriminant analysis of the speciality of elite cyclists. J. Hum. Sport Exerc. Vol. 6, No. 3, pp. 480-489, 2011.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Dec;34(12):2079-84.
Inverse relationship between VO2max and economy/efficiency in world-class cyclists.
Lucía A1, Hoyos J, Pérez M, Santalla A, Chicharro JL.

With regard to your other points:

2) I don't think it's too much to ask once a year at some time. But if you think it is, it's just more evidence that in fact the data you claim are out there are not. You can't say that the data already exist that show this approach won't work, then turn around and say that it's always been too much of a burden on cyclists to provide these data.

As for this study's not demonstrating reliability, I didn't say all the studies I posted did that, I said they had relevance to the discussion. The issue is not just the repeatability of power values, it's also translating them from the lab to the road.

3) I'm not sure how Wmax was defined in this study, over what interval, but given that these were not elite riders, I would expect that the best at short distances would probably be the best at longer distances, too. This is one of the disadvantages of not studying the cream of the crop.

4) A 5% variation in V02max/kg would be, say, 76-84 for elite cyclists. Yes, that is substantial, though no more than the variation in HT that is considered normal. But my point in posting this was not to show that the variability is low but just to provide an example of the kind of study found in the literature. Believe it or not, I'm willing to post and discuss data that don't necessarily support the OP.

But it's also kind of a trap that you fell into. You're critical of the first study, saying data from weekend warriors doesn't mean much. Fair enough. But this study used the same kind of subjects, and rather than make the same point, you use it to support your view that there is too much variability. The low variability in the first study doesn't mean much to you, but the higher variability in this study does.

5) Well, people argue that efficiency has to be taken into account, too. One of the arguments I hear against drawing a line above which a performance must be doping is that, even if we can draw a likely line on V02max, we don't know about efficiency. However, there is this:

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2010 Aug;109(6):1209-18. doi: 10.1007/s00421-010-1497-4. Epub 2010 May 13.
The between and within day variation in gross efficiency.
Noordhof DA1, de Koning JJ, van Erp T, van Keimpema B, de Ridder D, Otter R, Foster C.

And also the Lucia study posted above, which argues that efficiency varies inversely with V02 max.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Merckx index said:
And also the Lucia study posted above, which argues that efficiency varies inversely with V02 max.

Michael Hutchinson noticed or mentioned something similar in his book as well - Faster, the obsession, etc, etc.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Michael Hutchinson noticed or mentioned something similar in his book as well - Faster, the obsession, etc, etc.

It's an observation of one or two studies, but none suggest or claim a causal link between them AFAIK.
 
Mar 16, 2013
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Merckx Index, I appreciate you staying civil with the discussion. I think we are just looking at this through different lenses and it makes it impossible to really understand one another.

The problem with using a few studies to support or argue against an FTP Passport is in the studies' inherent weaknesses. Which is, IMO, if the authors truly understood what the study is about they would never have done it; it'd be a waste of time. And if they don't understand it, which is the point of the whole study, it's almost certain they aren't controlling for something that is relevant that they are unaware of.

I'm not the best writer, but I guess what I'm trying to get across is that I've read thousands (literally) of studies like this over many years in addition to personal experience of training and racing with a power meter at a high level, in addition to years of experience with hundreds of coached athletes using power meters in training and racing at all levels. I can not cite the study that is my life as neatly as you can quote an abstract here. If I could download my brain for you to experience/understand it I would, but then of course we wouldn't be having this horribly inadequate conversation with words that are so clumsy. Someday, maybe, we'll be able to do that. I'm sure Winston Smith won't be happy about it.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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A lot of very knowledgeable folks reading this thread so I'm going to cross post this here in the hopes of getting an answer. It's tangentially relevant to the discussion. :eek:

When the precision of power estimates (or even power meter measures, which are essentially estimates with smaller confidence intervals) is quoted, they're usually giving a percentage. x watt +-1% for instance.

Why is that? Why is there greater uncertainty for larger values?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Krebs cycle said:
Whoa hold the fort everyone.... now we've got n=2! Sorry but published science trumps your unpublished cherries any day of the week.

Variability and predictability of performance times of elite cross-country skiers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23799826

Variability and predictability of finals times of elite rowers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21502896

Variation in performance times of elite flat-water canoeists from race to race.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20625193

Seasonal changes in power of competitive cyclists: implications for monitoring performance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16602165

Progression and variability of competitive performance of Olympic swimmers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15370491

Variability of competitive performance of distance runners.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11528349

With the exception of base phase power through to competitive phase in cyclists, not ONE single study from all of these concludes that the typical variabilility in competitive performance is in the range that can be expected from doping.

Besides didn't I already say that performance and power only can never be used to detect doping? Yes in fact I did say that. Haven't I stated for years on this forum that variability in performance can occur independently of doping due to training, illness, injury etc? Yes in fact I have. Does this disprove the published science that clearly shows the CV of competitive performance in elite athletes across a variety of sports is quite low? NO IT DOESN'T. Could the fact that CV in competitive performance is quite low (not disproven by your n=2) be exploited to raise doping red flags? Maybe but there are significant challenges.

You should have been a politician coggan. Webinars, forum posts and biased fb status updates might fool simpletons, but they don't fly with anyone who knows the science.

I'm sorry - please explain to me how studies of race-to-race or even seasonal variations in performance speaks to variability across years?

While you're at it, you might also explain why you're focusing on mean/average/typical responses, when it those who deviate from this, and by how much, that are the issue.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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jw1979 said:
AKA, "I don't actually care about power data, which is why I don't have a bunch of raw data and analysis already that i've been analyzing the past 10+ years. I'd rather spend my time accumulating 10,000 posts on a message board com paining about a bunch stuff I don't actually know anything about."

Guys, this stuff ain't new. If you actually cared about it, you wouldn't have to ask someone else to do the work for you.


Wow. Uh, no. If you have data and you analyze it, okay. You come to some conclusions based on that analysis. Reasonable.

But then you take claim to the "truth" based on that? A resounding no. If you have any intellectual integrity at all, you release your raw data, the processed data, and a detailed analysis of that data. Otherwise, you're just acting like Coggan. And ten thousand posts!? I'm not anywhere near a thousand after many years.

John Swanson
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Merckx Index; you know how to tell you're on the right track and should dig deeper? Coggan and Vaughters come from out of nowhere and pop an aneurism. During the Tour...!!

BTW, the idea of an FTP passport is essentially what Greg Lemond suggested a few years back, although he's not as articulate as he is brilliant. There's a lot of merit to the idea.

John Swanson
 
Dec 7, 2010
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ScienceIsCool said:
Merckx Index; you know how to tell you're on the right track and should dig deeper? Coggan and Vaughters come from out of nowhere and pop an aneurism. During the Tour...!!

Vaughters? Where. :confused:

I hope you're not confusing jw1979 with JV1973, the latter being Vaughters, the forum being a screen name deliberately designed to troll the effects of being similar to Vaughters—one which the mods should've put an end to long ago since this would hardly be the first time someone has made the mistake.

Have you confused the two? Is that what you are referring to?

Vaughters has not posted in this thread.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Granville57 said:
Vaughters? Where. :confused:

I hope you're not confusing jw1979 with JV1973, the latter being Vaughters, the forum being a screen name deliberately designed to troll the effects of being similar to Vaughters—one which the mods should've put an end to long ago since this would hardly be the first time someone has made the mistake.

Have you confused the two? Is that what you are referring to?

Vaughters has not posted in this thread.

Seriously? Wow, that's dumb.

John Swanson