The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

Do we know what happened right before the Moscon incident? Was there anything being said or done by Reza? Just curious.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

you guys are making more of a issue about it than the guy Moscon actually spoke to...its seems Moscon knows he was wrong and he's admitted that...time to move on

Reza is likely fearful of the ramifications from some in the peloton if he had made a big deal of it. He likely just wants to race his bike without this incident being what first comes to mind when his name is mentioned. It's just unfortunate for him that Moscon put him in this position.

This. Reza accepting his apology isn't all that significant to me. Even if he's accepted his apology I can almost guarantee he hasn't actually forgiven him fully in his mind, certainly not this quickly. He did what most people expected of him, same as Moscon.

Given what details we know, I'm ok with the degree of punishment. Moscon is young and certainly has the opportunity to change any perceptions with his future behavior. Bravo to Reichenbach! Never had any particular feelings about him one way or another, but I will probably start cheering for the guy now.

 

[Nirvana]

Sky have 2 races in May according to their website: The Giro and the Tour of California. He wasn't part of the Giro team and I don't think he was riding Cali.

I hadn't realised May was 6 weeks long.

Anyway I think the punishment is correct though Sky should have pulled him from Romandie. a written warning in any job is actually extremely serious. Hopefully the diversity training will have educational benefits for him.

While we can't be certain he was probably pencilled in for Dauphinine or Limburg which fall within the 6 weeks, but I guess well never knw but its much easier to be outraged about 6 weeks.

Anyway he has gone down in my estimation and I won't be cheering for him in future races like I don't cheer Albassini

Given that the Dauphiné is a dress rehearsal of the Tour for Sky, I think it is more likely that he is scheduled to ride Suisse or Dirka po Sloveniji.

I have no idea where this mythical ****** that he wasn't down to race for 6 weeks comes from, its unlikely that anyone racing the Giro will do the dauphinine so of 28 riders that leaves 19 left, with Poels and Benat I status unknown possibly only 17, take out Moscon and thats 16 between Cali and the Dauphinine, so I am sure Sky would want him available as one of their stronger rouleurs, no names for Cali except the leader Boswell have been announced, so those who can definately say he wasn't done to race are talking out of their rear end

Tao Geoghegan Hart said in interview that he's going to California and they are going to have a young team (maybe he didn't know about the suspension when he gave the interview) but i'm pretty sure that Moscon were scheduled. Maybe when we are going to know how many riders they send in California, that will give us an answer. P.S. He did California last year,

He rode Tirreno, all spring classics bar Amstel and Romandie, it's a given that was scheduled a break for him in may. Considering that he'll ride the Vuelta he probably will have a light race in june like Route du Sud instead Dauphine or Suisse than national championship and one between Poland and Burgos as preparation for the Vuelta.
The six weeks suspension fit perfectly between Romandie and Route du Sud, a period in which he'll only rest and start to train for the second part of the season.

 

[SafeBet]

Re:

Do we know what happened right before the Moscon incident? Was there anything being said or done by Reza? Just curious.

Moscon said that Reza almost made him crash, and apparently Reza acknowledged his mistake at the end of the stage while confronting Moscon.

 

[RedheadDane]

Is it really so hard to believe that Moscon truly is sorry for what he said, and that Reza understands and accepts that?
Sure, Reza might not have forgiven Moscon 100% yet, but isn't accepting that the person who wronged you is sorry the first step towards doing so? Clean the air, cool neutrality, mutual respect.
Moscon will have his punishment, and more importantly; he'll have learned an important lesson from this: he'll have learned that since anger can make you say horrible things, sometimes it's best to just don't say anything at all.

 

[Echoes]

Not everybody is as vengeful as you are, folks. What I know for Reza is that he's a man with great dignity. Every time he's interviewed about racial abuse inflicted upon him, he refuses to answer. There's no reason to bring it to the media but yeah there's every reason to believe that he has fully forgiven right away. You just want to apply your own value hierarchy upon everybody but the thing is for some people forgiveness and repentance are major values.

 

[King Boonen]

A very good example of why racism should always be challenged:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39787690

It is not necessarily about the incident itself that can, and in this case apparently has, been solved between the parties. It is about the perpetuation and effect it has on society as a constant, underlying theme that needs to be rooted out. Small incidents like this might seem blown out of proportion, but each incident that goes unchallenged tells people nothing has changed.

 

[RedheadDane]

Of course it should be challenged.
But think about it; if this incident had never happened, would Moscon then have been forced to face his demons? He might have gone the rest of his life, not even realising just how terrible those thoughts are, like a wound that festers. Yes, it's a horrible shame that Reza had to be an innocent victim in all of this, but hopefully now Moscon will have learned.
Even more hopefully - since it won't require other victims - is that other people might look at this situation, and stop to think: "Am I really any better?"

 

[veganrob]

Re:

Of course it should be challenged.
But think about it; if this incident had never happened, would Moscon then have been forced to face his demons? He might have gone the rest of his life, not even realising just how terrible those thoughts are, like a wound that festers. Yes, it's a horrible shame that Reza had to be an innocent victim in all of this, but hopefully now Moscon will have learned.
Even more hopefully - since it won't require other victims - is that other people might look at this situation, and stop to think: "Am I really any better?"

"Hopefully" is the key word here. Moscon still might walk away with even greater anger. We don't know.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Had they ripped into Albasini at that time the Moscon incident would not have happened
The transformation for racist to normal requires some profound incident to happen It is not possible to change just with a simple apology.

 

[jaylew]

Not everybody is as vengeful as you are, folks. What I know for Reza is that he's a man with great dignity. Every time he's interviewed about racial abuse inflicted upon him, he refuses to answer. There's no reason to bring it to the media but yeah there's every reason to believe that he has fully forgiven right away. You just want to apply your own value hierarchy upon everybody but the thing is for some people forgiveness and repentance are major values.

I disagree. And even if by some chance, he has completely, 100% forgiven him, and harbors no resentment at all (which I highly doubt), it doesn't change anything. This isn't just about those two guys. Other riders in the group likely heard what was said. There are other black cyclists in the peloton and black cycling fans. I'd also like to think some of his Sky teammates and staff were hurt and offended.

And I'm sure Reza is man of dignity. Just as Jackie Robinson was a man of dignity and mostly kept his mouth shut as racist epithets were hurled his way non-stop when he joined the Major Leagues. Didn't change the anger and sadness he felt inside or the anger and sadness others felt. It's really not an uncommon response to this type of thing.

I certainly don't think you should throw Moscon completely under the bus, but some sort of punishment was warranted. And I can't speak for others here but vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Had they ripped into Albasini at that time the Moscon incident would not have happened
The transformation for racist to normal requires some profound incident to happen It is not possible to change just with a simple apology.

A silly response which defies history - All we hear is education, education and more education - People are educated from the age of 3 and it's hardly a raging success.

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

Had they ripped into Albasini at that time the Moscon incident would not have happened
The transformation for racist to normal requires some profound incident to happen It is not possible to change just with a simple apology.

A silly response which defies history - All we hear is education, education and more education - People are educated from the age of 3 and it's hardly a raging success.

What do you mean by that?

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Had they ripped into Albasini at that time the Moscon incident would not have happened
The transformation for racist to normal requires some profound incident to happen It is not possible to change just with a simple apology.

A silly response which defies history - All we hear is education, education and more education - People are educated from the age of 3 and it's hardly a raging success.

What do you mean by that?

From the time you start kindergarten right through the school system, then onto University, and then into the workplac,e you continually receive education on race, etc,etc,etc - The first response is the offender needs
re-education even though they've received 20+ years of education - Think this concept is trotted out because it sounds nice.

 

[RedheadDane]

Even when it (education) fails, you just gotta keep going.
Punish the offenders and then: Educate. Educate. Educate. No point in not educating about it simply because some people don't get it; some people don't get Math...
And some people spend a lot of time not getting Math, but eventually they do.

 

[Angliru]

Part of the problem with education, specifically history, is that opposing groups attempt to influence what is taught, influenced by what they want to include and omit, when essentially history has it's good and bad and it should all be included, warts and all. The facts are the facts, ugly as they may be in some cases, but many in power are inclined to attempt to leave out those facts of history that may reflect badly on some aspect or group that are being that they represent. It becomes a tug of war of short changing the youth of the realities of their country's and the world's past.

Nevertheless, with the known incidents in the recent past of minorities being abused in soccer and other sports including cycling, Moscon can't use ignorance as an excuse, nor would it be one anyway. Right is right and wrong is wrong. He's an adult and knew that his actions would have ramifications so any shock and outrage at the resulting public response on his part and those that choose to defend him just further shows his and their disconnect from the serious nature of the choice that he made.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Seems like he really didn't knew how wrong his actions were:

Could you elaborate on what he said? That sounds... interesting.

Well the whole interview seems full of... unawareness. He actually comes accros like a person that doesn't really understand what racism is and why it is so serious, the kind of person who would benefit from a diversity awareness course (whatever this means).

 

[deValtos]

Nothing gets me more annoyed when people argue against education. The progress society has made on social issues has been astounding since even I've been born. Sure it's not perfect (what is?), it fails some times, but you can't draw a line at a point and stop offering productive opportunities to learn.

I hope one day people will realize punishment is not a useful tool as education.

 

[RedheadDane]

Sometimes it needs to be both. Moscon has rightfully been punished, but without education about just what he did that was wrong the punishment might not help.
Though, it seems that in this case education is part of the punishment, or maybe it's part of the reform.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

you guys are making more of a issue about it than the guy Moscon actually spoke to...its seems Moscon knows he was wrong and he's admitted that...time to move on

Reza is likely fearful of the ramifications from some in the peloton if he had made a big deal of it. He likely just wants to race his bike without this incident being what first comes to mind when his name is mentioned. It's just unfortunate for him that Moscon put him in this position.

This. Reza accepting his apology isn't all that significant to me. Even if he's accepted his apology I can almost guarantee he hasn't actually forgiven him fully in his mind, certainly not this quickly. He did what most people expected of him, same as Moscon.

Given what details we know, I'm ok with the degree of punishment. Moscon is young and certainly has the opportunity to change any perceptions with his future behavior. Bravo to Reichenbach! Never had any particular feelings about him one way or another, but I will probably start cheering for the guy now.

My problem with all of this is that it appears the team is being left with the responsibility of disciplining Moscon when it should be the UCI. How can we trust his team to be fair and impartial? The UCI should have jurisdiction and authority to decide what the punishment would be. It seems pointless to suspend him for a period when he isn't even scheduled to be racing especially if he's still getting paid during that period. Teams should have to submit rider schedules to the UCI during each half of the season and should that schedule need to be changed for whatever reason then an updated one would be submitted. If this were already in place then I would suggest that any suspensions begin from the first upcoming day of an event on that rider's submitted schedule. It's not a punishment if the guilty rider isn't effected in any way.

 

[RedheadDane]

We know that UCI has launched an investigation to the case.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-launches-investigation-into-team-sky-and-moscon-after-racial-abuse-of-reza-at-romandie/

Maybe Sky just knew that UCI isn't exactly known for being quick when it comes to these matters - just look at how long it took before Grivko got a punishment for his Kittel-punch during Dubai - so decided to punish him on their own immediatly (sp?).
UCI will probably hand out a verdict some time in September...

 

[Brullnux]

September?! Blimey that's optimistic. I'm expecting more 2019 or 2020.

 

[Echoes]

I disagree. And even if by some chance, he has completely, 100% forgiven him, and harbors no resentment at all (which I highly doubt),

You highly doubt it because you don't know what forgiveness is. When somebody shows sincere regret after offending me I forgive right away. He probably too.

It's really not an uncommon response to this type of thing.

I know but it can happen. The matter is that in our era antiracism has become the alpha & omega of political struggle especially on the left-wing agenda. Not that racism is good of course but politicians have abandoned the class struggle and the defence of our workers and so they would rather defend "minorities". Thereby the slightest show of misconduct by an ordinary guy in this respect promptly makes him an outcast and puts a label behind his back for the rest of his life while most probably his words went beyond his thoughts. The words "public humiliation" that I read here are scary for me. In my culture and the values I've been raised with "public humiliation are really bad no matter what. It's kind of puritanistic or Jansenist. The problem was settled between both protagonists: us the public, it's none of our business.

By the way someone who is unable to forgive is vengeful, in my opinion. And forgiveness is 100% or 0%, it's binary.

The punishment for Moscon was to properly apologise to Mr Reza and perhaps also to his team. That is in itself a punishment.

 

[jaylew]

I disagree. And even if by some chance, he has completely, 100% forgiven him, and harbors no resentment at all (which I highly doubt),

You highly doubt it because you don't know what forgiveness is. When somebody shows sincere regret after offending me I forgive right away. He probably too.

Seriously? Yes, of course I don't know what forgiveness is. What an ignorant statement.

The problem was settled between both protagonists: us the public, it's none of our business.

I've already told you why I don't agree with this.

By the way someone who is unable to forgive is vengeful, in my opinion.

You're free to come up with your own personal definitions for words but it's going to make it even harder to have an intelligent conversation with you.

And forgiveness is 100% or 0%, it's binary.

It is? Is this like your definition for vengeful? Is accepting a person's apology even the same thing as forgiving someone? The two aren't always in complete lockstep. Sometimes the latter comes later.

It's important that the message is out there that kind of stuff is not going to be tolerated in cycling and for that there has to be some form of punishment.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

September?! Blimey that's optimistic. I'm expecting more 2019 or 2020.

September 2020?