The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

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Apr 1, 2013
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Echoes said:
loge1884 said:
even the minor hits (like Sagan's in one of the Belgian races this spring) are accepted
Yes of course, it was Her Majesty, so it was just a minor hit and it's accepted. Max Vantomme should be more of a showoff, perhaps he'd be more respected.
apart of your obvious problems with Peter Sagan ... he is my favorite cyclist and I am not saying what he did to Max Vantomme (thanks, the name escaped me) was right - and yes Sagan should have been punished for that (if he wasn't, I can't recall), no question .... what I wanted to point out was, that the Sagan/Vantomme incident was within what I would call the red line of cycling (fighting for a position) - to be sanctioned of course, but clearly with no intend to harm the other person, just a bit of fighting for a better position in a reckless way ... the intend to injure someone is clearly passing the red line
 

Singer01

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Nov 18, 2013
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fauniera said:
RedheadDane said:
I am. Here are the two incidents we're talking about:

A: Reichenbach called Moscon out for his racist behaviour way back in April.
B: Moscon - probably - caused Reichenbach to crash in October.
The second incident must per definition be linked to the first? Or is it possible that Moscon - justified or not - got mad at Reichenbach for something that had happened a few moments ago in the race?
What seems most logical to you:

1: Moscon going "I'm mad at you for something that happened five months ago!" *BOOOM!*
2: Moscon going "I'm mad at you for something that happened five seconds ago! *BOOOM!*
I can't quite work out how anyone can think that an entirely hypothetical "second encounter" is more likely the cause than the well known "disagreement" between those riders concerning Moscon's racist behaviour. Occam's razor is your friend.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
 
The most likely explanation is that they were contending a position in the peloton, as riders are wont to do, and that it got heated and Moscon snapped because it was Reichenbach and they have previous.
 
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RedheadDane said:
I still don't understand why Reichenbach thinks Moscons actions, whether deliberate or not, had anything to do with what happened way back in April.
Honestly, Moscon's main problem seems to be that he doesn't quite understand the long-term, or even immediate, cause of his actions. Yet he waited several months for the "right" moment to get revenge on Reichenbach?
Reichenbach was totally right in calling out Moscon for his behaviour towards Reza, especially because that might be exactly what Moscon needed in order to - in time - understand why such behaviour is wrong. Also interesting that while Moscon obviously accepted that what he did was wrong, and apologised to Reza, he didn't seem to realise that what he said was racist...
Reichenbach might also be right that Moscon deliberately caused him to crash.
Those two things aren't necessarily connected.
It's strange that with these incidents involving Moscon, there has been lots of chatter on social media - The only one who has remained silent is Reza - Enough said.
 
The police will need video evidence to lay charges against Moscon, whereas the UCI can rely on riders and commissionairs to reach a verdict - Anyway doubt the police will be interested in this case.
 
It's not at all rare for the direct victim to prefer to lie low and hope it all blows over in situations like this. To find it remarkable just means you don't understand the psychology behind it too well. If Reza chose to remain silent, good for him - that doesn't mean everybody else should do the same or that Moscon should get away with it.
 
Wow, this thread really blew up. I guess there's no video of the incident? If there really was contact between the riders and other riders can verify that, Moscon is going to be a lot of trouble. Going out and lying about it saying he crashed on his own would not have been a wise move. Could have just said that it was an accident, if there indeed was contact. Not sure why Seb would feel any need to blame his fall on foul play from Moscon's part either if this isn't actually true. I hope some other riders can testify to what happened.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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yaco said:
The police will need video evidence to lay charges against Moscon, whereas the UCI can rely on riders and commissionairs to reach a verdict - Anyway doubt the police will be interested in this case.
I don't think Italian Police operate differently to other nations. Eye witness accounts will be sufficient. Nothing may come of it but Police have powers for gathering evidence well beyond UCI.
 
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hrotha said:
It's not at all rare for the direct victim to prefer to lie low and hope it all blows over in situations like this. To find it remarkable just means you don't understand the psychology behind it too well. If Reza chose to remain silent, good for him - that doesn't mean everybody else should do the same or that Moscon should get away with it.
It means that Reza is greater person than most - Or shock and horror, it may be a case that Reza may have accepted Moscon's apology and chooses to move on - But some will go on for the next 10 years.
 
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Maaaaaaaarten said:
RedheadDane said:
and to me there really isn't that big a difference between hurling a - apparently pretty serious - racial slur at someone in a fit of anger, and deliberately pushing someone off their bike in a fit of anger.
Things are getting kind of off-topic now, but you really don't see a big difference between saying something offensive and physically assaulting somebody?

Whatever happened to do good old cliche "sticks and stones (and being pushed into the gutter while riding a bike at a high speed) may beak my bones, but words will never break me".........

If you can't control your tongue when angry, you can certainly get into trouble, but when you can't control your hands when angry, you'll generally end up in jail in due time (and rightly so).
If what's being said is as severe as racially abusing someone, then it's as bad - or even worse - as physically assaulting someone.
That old saying is *** *** anyway. A broken bone will mend, a hurtful comment can stay with you for life.


rata de sentina said:
RedheadDane said:
Froome pushing Aru for something that just happened isn't carrying a grudge, it's simply being mad about something.
It's entirely possible that, whatever caused their - supposed - argument, Moscon got more angry at Reichenbach than he would've gotten at any other person because of some deep-seated resentment towards Reichenbach after the racist incident. I just still don't find it very likely that Moscon - whose reaction after returning from his six-week suspension was basically "I've moved on." - would just randomly go over to Reichenbach and push him off his bike.
What does Reichenbach even intend to achieve by claiming it was because of the racist incident?
Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. For a start Moscon's reaction wasn't "I've moved on". It was clear he felt hard done by but was forced to "move on". If anything his attitude was churlish rather than contrite. Now you are making up some imaginary altercation between the two for some other reason as a more plausible explanation than a well known reason for a grudge!
Really?

"I don't have much to say. My conscience is clear, I accepted the punishment, I took my break,” he said.
Asked if he had any regrets about what happened, Moscon said: "I didn't kill anyone and the accusations are not completely founded. But I'd prefer to not talk about it anymore."
So he accepted his punishment, and said he'd prefer not to talk about it anymore, yet several months afterwards used it as a reason to cause Reichenbach to crash, thus making everyone talk about it?
To me it just seems more likely that Moscon got mad at Reichenbach for something that might have happened mere moments ago, than for something that happened several months ago. However, the old incident might very well have been an underlying factor in Moscon reacting as extremely as he did.
Sure, Reichenbach doesn't seem to think there could be other reasons for why Moscon might've been angry with him, but just like Moscon and Reichenbach clearly experienced whatever caused the crash very differently; with Reichenbach feeling that Moscon deliberately threw himself against him, and Moscon not even realising how close to Reichenbach he was getting.
Likewise it's possible that something might have happened just moments before the crash which Reichenbach hardly even noticed, but which ticked Moscon off, and - due to resentment over the racist incident caused him to react much more violently than he would had it been any other rider.
Basically whatever resentment Moscon might have held towards Reichenbach is gunpowder, then something might have happened which set Moscon off, like putting a match to gunpowder.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what caused Moscon to react as he did. Shouldn't change the punishment, so I'm just curious why Reichenbach is so convinced the racist incident was the reason. If anything it sure makes it look like the one holding a grudge is Reichenbach, even though the one with the biggest reason to hold a grudge is Reza...


(You'd think my computer would've learned to spell 'Moscon' and 'Reichenbach' by now...)
 
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yaco said:
hrotha said:
It's not at all rare for the direct victim to prefer to lie low and hope it all blows over in situations like this. To find it remarkable just means you don't understand the psychology behind it too well. If Reza chose to remain silent, good for him - that doesn't mean everybody else should do the same or that Moscon should get away with it.
It means that Reza is greater person than most - Or shock and horror, it may be a case that Reza may have accepted Moscon's apology and chooses to move on - But some will go on for the next 10 years.
It will only go on if Moscon continues with attention grabbing antics that put him in a bad light. That controversy initiated by him seems to have become the norm in 2017 is the reason we continue to discuss his recent past. Reza is indeed a greater person than most and it's more likely that he simply wants to race his bike and not be a part of this controversy. This was not his choosing to involved in this. Moscon is the reason for the drama in Reza professional life.
 
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ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Angliru said:
bigcog said:
I'd be surprised if the police case goes anywhere.
If there are witnesses as is being reported, then there's a chance it could.
Are there any precedents in cycling for athletes getting criminal charges for assault while in competition? In baseball, hockey, football, there are full-on brawls between teams, which are unnecessary and illegal violence, but nothing happens because it's considered part of the sport. Nobody wants to press charges.
It's rare, but there have been criminal charges arising from in game violence across a number of sports. Even Gaelic Football, which is a pretty "vigorous" contact sport, has seen a player charged with an assault offence for punching another player off the ball and breaking his jaw.
 
I never said it was a simple matter of fighting for positions. I simply suggested that something might have happened in the moments leading up to the crash which might have pissed Moscon off badly enough to cause Reichenbach to crash, and that it could very likely have been "strengthened" (sorry, can't English...) by underlying recentment after the racist incident.

Basically:

A: The racist incident happened.
2: They both seemingly moved on.
III: Something might have happened which ticked Moscon off, including him suddenly "remembering" that he was mad at Reichenbach for 'A'.
Again; gunpowder and match.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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RedheadDane said:
A broken bone will mend, a hurtful comment can stay with you for life.
That's not how the law sees it. Thankfully.

"I don't have much to say. My conscience is clear, I accepted the punishment, I took my break,” he said. Asked if he had any regrets about what happened, Moscon said: "I didn't kill anyone and the accusations are not completely founded. But I'd prefer to not talk about it anymore."
So he thought his offence was trivial and said he'd prefer not to talk about it anymore as instructed by Sky PR. There's nothing in that statement suggesting he was over it and everything that suggests he felt hard done by but couldn't say anything if he wanted to keep his job.

Basically whatever resentment Moscon might have held towards Reichenbach is gunpowder, then something might have happened which set Moscon off, like putting a match to gunpowder.
You are just contradicting yourself and trying to have it both ways. First of all it was the match on its own now there's gunpowder involved.
 
Apr 1, 2013
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+ Reza is indeed a greater person than most and it's more likely that he simply wants to race his bike and not be a part of this controversy. This was not his choosing to involved in this. Moscon is the reason for the drama in Reza professional life. +

I also do not think Reza want's to be reminded of the incident all the time .... having been insulted (even more so in a racistical way) is not necessarily something anyone would be particularly proud of (even though the blame is uniquely on the insulting person) .... the only people I know who would make endless stories about the fact of having been insulted are politicians or those who carry a special agenda (e.g. in an anti-racist-movement) ... being a cycling professional you would like to be remembered for your results or achievements and not for being "the person who was attacked by a racist" ....
 
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Angliru said:
yaco said:
hrotha said:
It's not at all rare for the direct victim to prefer to lie low and hope it all blows over in situations like this. To find it remarkable just means you don't understand the psychology behind it too well. If Reza chose to remain silent, good for him - that doesn't mean everybody else should do the same or that Moscon should get away with it.
It means that Reza is greater person than most - Or shock and horror, it may be a case that Reza may have accepted Moscon's apology and chooses to move on - But some will go on for the next 10 years.
It will only go on if Moscon continues with attention grabbing antics that put him in a bad light. That controversy initiated by him seems to have become the norm in 2017 is the reason we continue to discuss his recent past. Reza is indeed a greater person than most and it's more likely that he simply wants to race his bike and not be a part of this controversy. This was not his choosing to involved in this. Moscon is the reason for the drama in Reza professional life.
What Moscon does after the Reza incident are different incidents which should be debated on their merits - The sad thing is many in this forum don't understand racial abuse or the like - It's the victim of the racial abuse who decides if 'words' are offensive - It's not for you or me to decide - And in the case Reza was offended - So Reza, Moscon, FDJ and Sky had a meeting or the like to come to a solution that was satisfactory for Reza - Reza hasn't said boo since the event - Is this suggesting something ?
 
Apr 1, 2013
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@ RedheadDane

why would it be so important for you, whether the motivation for someone to intentionally injure someone else is located in some other incident 5 months ago or in some new more actual brawl? The fact of someone trying to injure his colleague for me is sufficient to have a judgement on that person, regardless of the motivation (unless of course if the victim would have killed or seriously injured someone close to me) ...

P.S. I am not mentioning the name of the cyclist here, because as long as he has not been proven guilty, he should not be judged as a person - so right now we are still talking about a hypothetical incident ...
 
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loge1884 said:
+ Reza is indeed a greater person than most and it's more likely that he simply wants to race his bike and not be a part of this controversy. This was not his choosing to involved in this. Moscon is the reason for the drama in Reza professional life. +

I also do not think Reza want's to be reminded of the incident all the time .... having been insulted (even more so in a racistical way) is not necessarily something anyone would be particularly proud of (even though the blame is uniquely on the insulting person) .... the only people I know who would make endless stories about the fact of having been insulted are politicians or those who carry a special agenda (e.g. in an anti-racist-movement) ... being a cycling professional you would like to be remembered for your results or achievements and not for being "the person who was attacked by a racist" ....
100% correct with this post.
 
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yaco said:
loge1884 said:
+ Reza is indeed a greater person than most and it's more likely that he simply wants to race his bike and not be a part of this controversy. This was not his choosing to involved in this. Moscon is the reason for the drama in Reza professional life. +

I also do not think Reza want's to be reminded of the incident all the time .... having been insulted (even more so in a racistical way) is not necessarily something anyone would be particularly proud of (even though the blame is uniquely on the insulting person) .... the only people I know who would make endless stories about the fact of having been insulted are politicians or those who carry a special agenda (e.g. in an anti-racist-movement) ... being a cycling professional you would like to be remembered for your results or achievements and not for being "the person who was attacked by a racist" ....
100% correct with this post.
The immediate victim of some piece of bad behaviour often wants to put the whole incident behind them, for perfectly understandable reasons. This is true even of many victims of serious criminal behaviour. However for equally good reasons, society as a whole doesn't leave the treatment of people who engage in bad behaviour entirely up to their victims. That's true when it comes to criminal prosecutions and it is also true when it comes to public opinion and memory. Everyone has an interest in discouraging and deterring socially obnoxious behaviour. It isn't just the immediate victim of a particular assault who has reason to disapprove of thuggery. And it isn't only Kevin Reza who has reason to want the racial abuse of a work colleague to carry serious consequences.
 
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yaco said:
Angliru said:
yaco said:
hrotha said:
It's not at all rare for the direct victim to prefer to lie low and hope it all blows over in situations like this. To find it remarkable just means you don't understand the psychology behind it too well. If Reza chose to remain silent, good for him - that doesn't mean everybody else should do the same or that Moscon should get away with it.
It means that Reza is greater person than most - Or shock and horror, it may be a case that Reza may have accepted Moscon's apology and chooses to move on - But some will go on for the next 10 years.
It will only go on if Moscon continues with attention grabbing antics that put him in a bad light. That controversy initiated by him seems to have become the norm in 2017 is the reason we continue to discuss his recent past. Reza is indeed a greater person than most and it's more likely that he simply wants to race his bike and not be a part of this controversy. This was not his choosing to involved in this. Moscon is the reason for the drama in Reza professional life.
What Moscon does after the Reza incident are different incidents which should be debated on their merits - The sad thing is many in this forum don't understand racial abuse or the like - It's the victim of the racial abuse who decides if 'words' are offensive - It's not for you or me to decide - And in the case Reza was offended - So Reza, Moscon, FDJ and Sky had a meeting or the like to come to a solution that was satisfactory for Reza - Reza hasn't said boo since the event - Is this suggesting something ?
It's also a part of the code of conduct that Moscon violated (that was posted somewhere earlier in this thread). Once the incident went public it didn't matter if Reza, FDJ and Sky had a meeting to work it out. Technically the UCI should have stepped in and decided how to handle the situation but they chickened out dramatically and allowed Sky to decide what his punishment would be. As if Sky was going to be non-partisan and fair to all involved. It was an insult to Reza and the sport itself that Moscon was suspended for a period that he wasn't scheduled to race anyway.
 
Apr 1, 2013
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@Zinoviev Letter

I guess most (if not all) of us will agree with what you are saying ...

To understand the previous posts: The initial point was, "why was Reza not vocal about the incident?" and thus suggesting, maybe the incident wasn't as bad as thought.
 
Aug 22, 2017
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Wow, I didn't realize how many posters on here were so all-knowing and all-wise. I guess it is easier to judge someone without even an investigation. Is Reichenbach innocent in all of this? Who knows/ We may never know but let's tar and feather Moscon anyway and hang him on a stake. Not only is that line of thought sad but it is entirely stupid. Let's keep in mind, out on the road stuff happens. Lots of stuff that no one ever hears about. Lot of words are exchanged that no one ever hears about. Moscon is now portrayed as this huge racist. Wonder if anyone else who rides could be classified as a racist? Who knows? Perhaps Reichenbach is simply too thin-skinned? Maybe he needs to grow a pair. Doubt Moscon is the only who ever uttered anything derogatory in a race. lol And I highly doubt Moscon is the only who ever had sticky fingers, cold fingers or any other kind of fingers in a race. What's that old saying? Oh yeah, "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me".
 

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