The greatest individual sporting lie?

[Ferminal]

You guys are right. I didn't listen properly. Mistook a 't' for a 'd'. Sharted. Lovely term.

Ak Zaaf mentioned Ian Thorpe. Thorpe raced only freestyle events. His world record for the 400m free stood till this years world champs where a German who a year before couldn't make the Olympic semis smashed his PB by 8 seconds and broke the WR by 0.01 seconds. Thorpe's 200m WR was only broken in 2007 by Phelps. He raced when the body suits were in their infancy, 3 generations before the LZR. Thorpe was a freak. World champion at 15 years. Genetically gifted. I loved how the American head coach coming into the 2000 Olympic Games was suggesting the government must have had him on HGH as a child. An american coach. Look at their team today. Dana Torres anyone? Katie Hoff and Natalie Coughlin are the only ones I think are definitely clean amongst the women.

I'll add in on King Carl. Fraud and cheat. He was dirtier than Johnson. But anyone remember who prosecuted him as the Canadian IOC delegate? **** Pound ring a bell. He said the incident taught him one thing. Both Charles Francis and Ben Johnson vehemently denied any wrong doing. He said he learnt that people will lie to your face about anything, especially doping and they can be very convincing. Lesson, question and query everything. The tragedy off doping. Women track and field 100m and 200m WR's. They have stood for 2 decades. Even Marion Jones couldn't touch them. The best are still almost half a second off her 200m record. Look up the footage on YouTube. Florence Griffith Joyner. Incredible athlete. The woman who set them was dead at 36 (might have been 38). Poor Flo Jo. Doping is evil and has a price.

Who is the biggest cheat/fraud. Depends on the sport and your interests. Here with cycling it is Lance. Cricket, Azarhuddin, Cronje and Malik all threw games for money. Captains of national teams I might add. Boxing has numerous rotten eggs. Baseball, NFL and the NBA all have such charming men in their ranks these days one could easily make an argument for their inclusion. I guess it is fair to say it is all relative to sport in focus.

Joey ran a pretty good lie until he got caught!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

My how this topic quickly got out of hand and off track.

DIM's point about Carl Lewis on page 1 is well taken.

Andre Agassi had a pretty good lie going.

In case anyone asks, I do not have the power to ban anyone.

 

[Big GMaC]

Thanks for the link. It was nice to watch Contador drop that old fart Armstrong without having to listen to Phil Limpet drone on about how awesome Lance is.

those are some pretty sweet euro beats... and they goes nicely with contatdor's pedal dance

False. They take bloods as well. They are immediately ushered away.

 

[progressor]

Lieing, cheating, doping. Sporting fraud, societal moral implosion. There are so may issues wrapped up in these threads. I'm never sure what people expect. Is driving a car faster than the speed limit breaking the law even though it's only punishable if you're CAUGHT doing it? Is not telling the person in front of you at the cash point that they have forgotten to wait for the £50 they wanted to withdraw and pocketing it yourself as bad as stealing £50 from a little old lady? The footballer who kicks the ball out themself and then shouts for a corner rather than say "refereee that should be a goal kick", the cricketer who knicks the ball and then doesn't walk, the tennis player who demands an injury time out just to disrupt their opponents rhythm - are they cheating or lieing or something worse?

If you believe that doing anything against the rules is lieing or cheating, then doping in sport is lieing and it is cheating. I personally believe that we all have a moral compass that is informed by rules and laws but that our actions are not solely determined by such laws and rules. I drive faster than the speed limit at times. I claim a corner when I kick the ball out myself. I don't walk at cricket unless the umpire says I'm out. I'd probably tell someone that they had forgotten to pick up their £50 from the cash point, though.

Therefore, I'm sorry to say, I don't believe in an absolute "thou shalt not cheat cos it's wrong mantra". I brief stint in professional football robbed me of any such notions, as did 15 years in big business. Sport and society anyone?

That's what makes doping, as well as lieing and cheating so fascinating. To me, all a sports person has to do is pass the specified drug tests in their sport in the same way as it's up to a referee or an umpire to decide who is in and who is out or the police to catch me speeding. Maybe I'm cynical but that's the only absolute we have.

Of course there is right and wrong but ultimately we are our own judge of right and wrong whilst rules and laws adjudicate in the wider world.

The biggest lie in sport. Simple really. The lie you tell yourself if your victories have been achieved by means outside the rules EVEN IF you haven't broken said rules.

Sport, celebrity, money and fame come and go. Families, kids, friends and MIRRORS last forever.

The biggest lie in sport. Apt really, given his drug-addled demise, Michael Jackson had it right - "I'm starting with the man in the mirror".

If I was a doped cyclist, winning races, I don't think I could sleep at night. Unless of course I thought everyone else was doing it and that cycling had no corinthian soul and...... that's probably another debate altogether!!

Good post.

My oldest son is one of those naturally honest kids, lying is not remotely natural to him, I've encouraged him not to be so honest. My example - if 5 kids including you do something naughty at school, and when questioned about it you tell the truth, who will get in trouble - the liars or you the honest kid? Even at 7 or so he knew the answer was the honest kid. That's the reality - look at Dwain Chambers - the more he's come clean - the more he's been punished. Whatever morality people may want to spew on the net, life does not reward too much honesty - it comes down to the mirror as you said, how you feel about yourself.

 

[Max Power]

Thanks for the link. It was nice to watch Contador drop that old fart Armstrong without having to listen to Phil Limpet drone on about how awesome Lance is.

Yes I think that was the point. People were so busy hating on Armstrong that they didn't wonder how Contador could produce so much power and finish the stage without the slightest sign of being out of breath as he crossed the line. It demonstrates that many people are motivated by Armstrong hatred rather than opposition to doping.

 

[peloton]

Yes I think that was the point. People were so busy hating on Armstrong that they didn't wonder how Contador could produce so much power and finish the stage without the slightest sign of being out of breath as he crossed the line. It demonstrates that many people are motivated by Armstrong hatred rather than opposition to doping.

Why for me Lance is the greatest sporting fraud ever is that he has built an entire empire around the myth.

Here is a good read for you,
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/07/church-of-lance-armstrong.html

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Whiskey in the jar

One of the strangest cases involved Irish swimmer Michelle Smith (later married and becoming Michelle de Bruin).

Outside the top 150 swimmers for most of her career she rocketed to win 3 Golds & one Bronze medal at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta at the age of 26.

However she was accused of tampering with her urine during a surprise OOC test at her home in 1998.
Her sample came back positive for .... whiskey!!
In fact the urine contained enough alcohol in it to have killed the swimmer had she ingested the amount necessary to produce the trace level present in her waste

"I had no motive for introducing alcohol or indeed any other masking agent into my sample and I have never tested positive for any banned substance throughout my career." De Bruin said at the time.

De Bruin fought her case all the way through a CAS hearing - her reputation as a 'Golden Girl" suffered as it became clear she had been avoiding doping inspectors throughout her career.
However her own lawyer put the final nail in her coffin when he unwittingly mentioned that a banned substance- androstenedione - had been found in her sample.

She was banned for 4 years and is now a Barrister in Ireland.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes I think that was the point. People were so busy hating on Armstrong that they didn't wonder how Contador could produce so much power and finish the stage without the slightest sign of being out of breath as he crossed the line. It demonstrates that many people are motivated by Armstrong hatred rather than opposition to doping.

There are multiple threads dedicated to AC's doping and his suspect performances. To pretend that there is not is just another weak attempt to bait and derail the thread.

 

[Ripper]

38.5 seems a bit low to be honest for an athlete. That's bordererline anemic.

That is not borderline anemic. Don't be ridiculous!

 

[Ripper]

No comments about Hein? Really?

 

[Max Power]

There are multiple threads dedicated to AC's doping and his suspect performances. To pretend that there is not is just another weak attempt to bait and derail the thread.

But many had the same reaction as the poster I was responding to, which was telling about their priorities.

 

[Max Power]

That is not borderline anemic. Don't be ridiculous!

If it was your average it would be getting close. Anything from 37 down is classed anemic in males.

 

[Ripper]

If it was your average it would be getting close. Anything from 37 down is classed anemic in males.

More like the test occurred right after a blood bank donation

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Speaking of swimming, anyone remember when Inge de Bruijn won big in the Olympics, and Amy Van Dyken spit in her lane and said "I could swim that fast if I were a man"?

Great stuff...only that it was Van Dyken who had the TUE for asthma, and Van Dyken who was later revealed to be a client of BALCO.

As to baseball, it's my belief that Bonds is the biggest liar. He was 185lbs, and skinny, and in his mid 30's put on about 40 pounds of pure muscle, and broke some of the most coveted records in baseball. Clemens was a great pitcher before steroids, which just prolonged his career. Palmero maybe the same. Arod and Manny are flat out liars too, but Bonds is the biggest fraud.

FloJo had to have been doped to the gills, but she died a tragic death and never really rose to the public level that some of these other people we're discussing did.

Tim Donaghy was a huge scandal, but didn't likely work alone.

Danny Almonte and Rosie Ruiz were small pickings.

Pete Rose did act alone, mostly, and was a huge name, but didn't fraud as many people, or fool as many as some think.

To me, Bonds and Lewis are probably the only two I can think of that pulled off something equal in public size and scope to that of Armstrong.

 

[Race Radio]

That is not borderline anemic. Don't be ridiculous!

He is trolling.

Hct is one of many measurements used to determine anemia, 38 means nothing without knowing the other parameters. Even Armstrong "revised" numbers have him at 39 in the off season. A nice 10% increase in the third week of the Tour, I think we can all agree this is the result of a nice blood bag on the rest day.

Back on topic, Alp makes a good point on Flo Jo and Bonds.

 

[progressor]

Speaking of swimming, anyone remember when Inge de Bruijn won big in the Olympics, and Amy Van Dyken spit in her lane and said "I could swim that fast if I were a man"?

Great stuff...only that it was Van Dyken who had the TUE for asthma, and Van Dyken who was later revealed to be a client of BALCO.

As to baseball, it's my belief that Bonds is the biggest liar. He was 185lbs, and skinny, and in his mid 30's put on about 40 pounds of pure muscle, and broke some of the most coveted records in baseball. Clemens was a great pitcher before steroids, which just prolonged his career. Palmero maybe the same. Arod and Manny are flat out liars too, but Bonds is the biggest fraud.

FloJo had to have been doped to the gills, but she died a tragic death and never really rose to the public level that some of these other people we're discussing did.

Tim Donaghy was a huge scandal, but didn't likely work alone.

Danny Almonte and Rosie Ruiz were small pickings.

Pete Rose did act alone, mostly, and was a huge name, but didn't fraud as many people, or fool as many as some think.

To me, Bonds and Lewis are probably the only two I can think of that pulled off something equal in public size and scope to that of Armstrong.

On Flojo, have a look at the amount she dropped the 100m time, something like 0.37 seconds in one go, which is insane in th 100m. No-one since has got even close. She may have paid the price - sadly- but she was an immense fraud.

Actually how about all the east german sport from th 60's thru 80's? That's got to be up there as the greatest fraud.

 

[Max Power]

He is trolling.

Hct is one of many measurements used to determine anemia, 38 means nothing without knowing the other parameters. Even Armstrong "revised" numbers have him at 39 in the off season. A nice 10% increase in the third week of the Tour, I think we can all agree this is the result of a nice blood bag on the rest day.

Why are you saying 'we all agree' when we patently don't all agree? Are you trolling again?

You still don't provide a source for your assertions on Armstrong's average crit numbers. I do not trust your word given you couldn't respond to my last post. I recall it was 42. And I'm afraid you're wrong - 37 is usually regarded as anemic. It would leave someone feeling tired a lot the time if their natural crit was close to that number.

If Armstrong really don't have a low crit then it makes his physiology all the more extraordinary. That someone could be a professional athlete with a lower blood cell ratio than most others makes them very special. They're starting with a disadvantage.

 

[Max Power]

A bit of altitude training before the tour, your crit goes up one or two, and it explains it perfectly well. This is normal.

 

[pedaling squares]

The male German track athlete in the 1936 Games who competed as a woman would have been a great fraud had he actually won a medal. Dora Ratjen I think? Ok, it's not that great... I'm just throwing something out there to get this thread back on track.

You know, if you want to debate Lance Armstrong's alleged doping practices, there have been one or two threads in the clinic that addressed that very topic.

 

[Digger]

Covered already but Marion Jones in my opinion is up there. Sydney was mad.

 

[timmers]

Well if you have followed track and field it apppears to have started with the east europeans in the 70/80's.
Especially with woman competitors Jarmila Kratochvílová 1:53.28 in 1983. Unfortunately the leaders of the free world let us down with blood doping in 1984 at LA in cycling and Florence Griffith-Joyner and also Carl Lewis.

But on reflection the biggest cheats are the IOC as they have closed their eyes. Hein Verbruggen unfortunately is part of this corrupt body so what chance is there?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Yes, don't forget the IOC scandals at the Salt Lake Olympics.

As to FloJo, I did say she had to have been heavily doped to put up the times she did. What I did say though is that she had a fairly short career, then died. She wasn't anywhere near in the prolonged public exposure or spotlight that Carl Lewis was. Not even close.

The DDR and eastern bloc doping machine is hard to state though, because it doesn't really fit the parameters listed by the OP, unless you want to point to one specific athlete, such as Kratochvílová, Waldemar Cierpinski, Kornelia Ender, etc. But even they were part of a system, and many had no idea they were doped. Recommend Faust's Gold, a detailed book on the eastern block doping machine during that time.

Timmers - I think if you dig, you'll find that both the US and Soviet Union were doping with steroids even before the 1970's.

 

[progressor]

Yes, don't forget the IOC scandals at the Salt Lake Olympics.

As to FloJo, I did say she had to have been heavily doped to put up the times she did. What I did say though is that she had a fairly short career, then died. She wasn't anywhere near in the prolonged public exposure or spotlight that Carl Lewis was. Not even close.

The DDR and eastern bloc doping machine is hard to state though, because it doesn't really fit the parameters listed by the OP, unless you want to point to one specific athlete, such as Kratochvílová, Waldemar Cierpinski, Kornelia Ender, etc. But even they were part of a system, and many had no idea they were doped. Recommend Faust's Gold, a detailed book on the eastern block doping machine during that time.

Timmers - I think if you dig, you'll find that both the US and Soviet Union were doping with steroids even before the 1970's.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was adding to your point on Flojo. But I'd agree that carl lewis was a bigger fraud, not only in terms of the length of his career, but with his mouth.
The book interests me, but unless it's downloadable in a pdf somewhere, I don't know how I'd get my hands on it.

 

[progressor]

Why are you saying 'we all agree' when we patently don't all agree? Are you trolling again?

You still don't provide a source for your assertions on Armstrong's average crit numbers. I do not trust your word given you couldn't respond to my last post. I recall it was 42. And I'm afraid you're wrong - 37 is usually regarded as anemic. It would leave someone feeling tired a lot the time if their natural crit was close to that number.

If Armstrong really don't have a low crit then it makes his physiology all the more extraordinary. That someone could be a professional athlete with a lower blood cell ratio than most others makes them very special. They're starting with a disadvantage.

I think they're right, I think you are sprocket, ban pro cycling whatever. I don't think you're a troll at all, I don't think you do anything to get deserve getting banned, i do think there are some right a...hole posters around here whose anti armstrong thing is completely warped - they're abusive, condescending and gang up on anyone who disagrees with them. They also get away with far worse behavior than posters whop aren't anti armstrong. BUT you do post some fairly nonsensical things, and you don't back up what you say very well, on top of that you keep responding and the thread does start to lose it's point. I've had a good crack at some of the e-mob, rightfully so, but I also know you've got to shut up sometimes and let a few things go or else every thread becomes derailed and you are at fault as much as some of the abusers.

Also, when you get something wrong, admit it, let it go - don't keep arguing. A lot of these guy's - even some of the anti-armstrong saint conti loving warped type - do know a few things. You're no better than them if you drag a thread thru pages of tit for tat posting when you were wrong in the first place.

 

[workingclasshero]

what a bag of ****

Yes I think that was the point. People were so busy hating on Armstrong that they didn't wonder how Contador could produce so much power and finish the stage without the slightest sign of being out of breath as he crossed the line. It demonstrates that many people are motivated by Armstrong hatred rather than opposition to doping.

the reason you think this is the case is cause you don't read anything else than armstrong threads. you must be effin stupid if you claim to have read contador discussions and try to say he hasn't his share of doubters

But many had the same reaction as the poster I was responding to, which was telling about their priorities.

yes, please do repeat your shíte. in the end it'll become true. you're also not very good at detecting irony

If Armstrong really don't have a low crit then it makes his physiology all the more extraordinary. That someone could be a professional athlete with a lower blood cell ratio than most others makes them very special. They're starting with a disadvantage.

you put up a lot of words but it's impossible to know what you are saying.

A bit of altitude training before the tour, your crit goes up one or two, and it explains it perfectly well. This is normal.

one or two? what has that got to do with anything? try 10, still normal? Or even the 6 you have accepted yourself lance?

i'm sure the admins have had a few of your posts reported, let's hope they do their job.

having someone on here knowingly spreading lies and keep ruining threads which otherwise could have been interesting and also teach you some stuff is of no use to the msg board.

i'm starting to wonder, is the armstrong myth really that important to cyclingnews that they want to have someone on here to spin it? or can this one be done away with please?