The greatest individual sporting lie?

[BroDeal]

No, you are wrong.

The hematocrit is the ratio of red blood cells, and at its highest point it did not go past 45. Most of the time it was below this. I'm not saying he blood doped or he didn't blood dope - I'm pointing out that many riders had higher crits than this but he still beat them, at the age of 37 after years out.

Armstrong's performance this year explodes the myth that doping was the key to his success. He is without doubt one of the all time greatest riders.

No, you are wrong.

His reticulocytes dropped to half their normal value during the Tour. Hematocrit and hemoglobin did not drop. Something was levitating those two values, and the most obvious answer is blood manipulation with EPO or transfusions. It seems clear that he was up to his old tricks.

Without dope Armstrong would have never placed in the top ten of the TdF.

I'm sure it is perfectly normal for a rider's blood parameters to completely change during the Tour.

 

[progressor]

No, you are wrong.

The hematocrit is the ratio of red blood cells, and at its highest point it did not go past 45. Most of the time it was below this. I'm not saying he blood doped or he didn't blood dope - I'm pointing out that many riders had higher crits than this but he still beat them, at the age of 37 after years out.

Armstrong's performance this year explodes the myth that doping was the key to his success. He is without doubt one of the all time greatest riders.

Do you have a link to the other leading riders crits?

 

[Max Power]

No, you are wrong....

But what relation is that answer to what I said in my post? It looks like you're answering a point that you wanted me to make, not the point that I did make.

I'm pointing out that many riders had higher crits than this but he still beat them, at the age of 37 after years out. He may well have blood doped at the margins, though there is no conclusive proof for this, but it doesn't effect the point that others have crits higher than he did, which means he beat people with more red blood cells.

Who was doping and who was not doping is irrelevent. That's old thinking. We can now see that ratio of red blood cells.

I don't think many people understand that EPO or blood transfusions can no longer give riders the benefits that they used to in years past. With the blood passport it's very difficult for them to massively boost red blood cells and get huge power increases. This year revealed that Armstrong's brilliance is not manufactured.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dr Ferrari was working with Armstrong this year? I haven't seen that reported anywhere. Where did you get this? I think you are wrong.

Hi BPC- actually Lance was working with Don Catlin this year!!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Hi BPC- actually Lance was working with Don Catlin this year!!

Yeah, but Don wouldn't "work with" Lance so he called it off.

 

[HL2037]

Many athletes dope and many athletes lie. Not many deliberately try to build a religion around themselves, complete with miracles, curing the diseased, coming back from death and all.

Thats why I think LA's lie is the biggest. He is not lying to protect himself, but to decieve and exploit people. It's powered by greed and the need to be worshipped. The contrast between the supposed noble intent and the ruthless methods employed is gross. It's depressing that people can't see the vast difference between what he does and what he says he does.

 

[Digger]

but he doesnt say who hes talking about... at least i cant find mention of it...

i know its kimmage.. but he is kinda bitter... his opinion counts for something, but not everything..

Show me where he has been wrong.

 

[ProTour]

Many athletes dope and many athletes lie. Not many deliberately try to build a religion around themselves, complete with miracles, curing the diseased, coming back from death and all.

Thats why I think LA's lie is the biggest. He is not lying to protect himself, but to decieve and exploit people. It's powered by greed and the need to be worshipped. The contrast between the supposed noble intent and the ruthless methods employed is gross. It's depressing that people can't see the vast difference between what he does and what he says he does.

Not a very well thought out post, some people's hatred is so obvious they say desperate things. You apparently don't know the definition of a religion or a miracle, and you are grasping at straws without providing any evidence of anything.

I agree with whomever said this years performances proved that Lance's tour wins were largely the result of hard work, and a phenomenal, game-changing, dominating, team approach to winning the TdF. No team had ever previously had the audacity to race in such a shrewd manner like Postal/Discovery did for 7 years.

The biggest lie in cycling is that there is some necessary reason for all these guys to be shaving their legs. There isn't, other than to be part of the crowd and enjoy the looks of their shiny legs.

 

[Frosty]

Show me where he has been wrong.

Using Bernhard Kohl as an example of how the Tour in 2008 was a lot cleaner than other recent years

 

[Ferminal]

Not a very well thought out post, some people's hatred is so obvious they say desperate things. You apparently don't know the definition of a religion or a miracle, and you are grasping at straws without providing any evidence of anything.

I agree with whomever said this years performances proved that Lance's tour wins were largely the result of hard work, and a phenomenal, game-changing, dominating, team approach to winning the TdF. No team had ever previously had the audacity to race in such a shrewd manner like Postal/Discovery did for 7 years.

The biggest lie in cycling is that there is some necessary reason for all these guys to be shaving their legs. There isn't, other than to be part of the crowd and enjoy the looks of their shiny legs.

Phenomenal, game-changing, dominating?

Please elaborate

 

[progressor]

Completely irrelevant to the thread topic, but totally relevant to the thread. Why TF are posters allowed to add their own Tags for the thread? Seriously WTF use are these?? Even if the sheer bizaarness of some of them has some humour.

911-sanity needed here, god has a 120 stem, good god not another one, haters=false prophets, max troller, polish = ignore, pr needed asap!!, progressor in love, progressor to the rescue, upset teabaggers, we're losing the youth!!

 

[Anonymous]

it really was optimistic to hope that this thread wouldnt become another lance thread wasnt it..

some of us tried, carl lewis, ben johnson, even rafiel nadal.. but nope.. its all comes back to lance again..

youre obsessed people!

 

[Anonymous]

Show me where he has been wrong.

did i say if he was right or wrong.. you are misinterpreting me...

i said he was bitter... and on the whole he expresses "opinion".. there is no correct answer in opinion..

 

[Big GMaC]

The hematocrit is the ratio of red blood cells, and at its highest point it did not go past 45. Most of the time it was below this. I'm not saying he blood doped or he didn't blood dope - I'm pointing out that many riders had higher crits than this but he still beat them, at the age of 37 after years out.

Armstrong's performance this year explodes the myth that doping was the key to his success. He is without doubt one of the all time greatest riders.

You do realize it is not about who has the highest crit? there are many many other factors. It is not just about crit, in the same way it is not just about VO2 Max, they are indicators of performance, so its not just about the numbers, other wise we could run the Tour de Greg in the lab finding out VO2 Max

I mean if it was all about crit then Cuenego would be constantly winning all Tours due to his higher than 50% natural levels.

And his blood profile clearly shows top ups, so the blood doping you are unsure of.

Also the hematocrit measure is not a ratio, because a ratio expresses the magnitude of quantities relative to each other, it is simply the percentage of RBCs...

 

[Race Radio]

did i say if he was right or wrong.. you are misinterpreting me...

i said he was bitter... and on the whole he expresses "opinion".. there is no correct answer in opinion..

Armstrong dopes, lies, and exploits his groupie followers and he is called a hero.....anyone that questions the myth is called a hater, or bitter.

Easy to see why some would question this equation.

 

[Race Radio]

But what relation is that answer to what I said in my post? It looks like you're answering a point that you wanted me to make, not the point that I did make.

I'm pointing out that many riders had higher crits than this but he still beat them, at the age of 37 after years out. He may well have blood doped at the margins, though there is no conclusive proof for this, but it doesn't effect the point that others have crits higher than he did, which means he beat people with more red blood cells.

Who was doping and who was not doping is irrelevent. That's old thinking. We can now see that ratio of red blood cells.

I don't think many people understand that EPO or blood transfusions can no longer give riders the benefits that they used to in years past. With the blood passport it's very difficult for them to massively boost red blood cells and get huge power increases. This year revealed that Armstrong's brilliance is not manufactured.

It appears you are unaware that there are plenty of methods to take a 49 Hct down to 42 within a matter of minutes, this is why it is against rules to make testers wait 55 minutes.

What Bro posted is very related to this, instead of a decrease of 12% in the third week he saw an 10% increase. The 50% drop in reticulocytes only makes his doping more obvious.

After Ferrari was convicted he sent out a press release saying that neither he, nor his team, would be working with him again. This was a lie. Ferrari was spotting staying at a hotel next to Armstrong''s house in Girona later that year, Armstrong sent a teammate an email talking about how happy Ferrari was with his progress in 2004. He was spotted with Levi and Armstrong at the same Hotel in Tenirefe in 2005. He was photographed coaching Danielson and Popo (amongst others) in 2006.

I think we can all agree that Armstrong never stopped working with Ferrari.

 

[Anonymous]

it really was optimistic to hope that this thread wouldnt become another lance thread wasnt it..

some of us tried, carl lewis, ben johnson, even rafiel nadal.. but nope.. its all comes back to lance again..

youre obsessed people!

You forgot Clubber Lang.

 

[Anonymous]

I see that the pathetic troll is once again posting. Do yourself a favor, ignore him early and avoid the Christmas rush.

 

[sherer]

think we should move on from LA and go back to the orig question which is do any other sports have people who are have built up the same sort of reputation and then been found out as a doper or a cheat ?

Maybe Hanse Croyne the cricketer whose name I can't spell
Bruce Grobellar the goalkeeper whose name I have prob slept wrong too !

 

[HL2037]

Not a very well thought out post, some people's hatred is so obvious they say desperate things. You apparently don't know the definition of a religion or a miracle, and you are grasping at straws without providing any evidence of anything.

I agree with whomever said this years performances proved that Lance's tour wins were largely the result of hard work, and a phenomenal, game-changing, dominating, team approach to winning the TdF. No team had ever previously had the audacity to race in such a shrewd manner like Postal/Discovery did for 7 years.

The biggest lie in cycling is that there is some necessary reason for all these guys to be shaving their legs. There isn't, other than to be part of the crowd and enjoy the looks of their shiny legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9B6O4qzJ_4

 

[Big GMaC]

Maybe Hanse Croyne the cricketer whose name I can't spell !

Cronje story is pretty tragic, getting tied up in betting syndicates etc. His personal gain out of the whole episode was very little money in comparison.

Although the whole cricket/asian sub conti betting scandals thing is pretty murky.

 

[Ripper]

So the crux of this first post is, what has been the greatest lie by an individual i.e. not including the systematic doping programs of GDR/USSR/USA/CHN; in sports?

Well, not that I disagree with all the Pharmstrong info, but I am going to go with Hein Verbruggen. Not only has he lied (cycling was clean, remember?) but he also enabled the lies of many, including said Pharmstrong.

BTW, absolutely LMAO at the comments about American Flyer and Sharts!

 

[Galic Ho]

Yes, I would think you are right. Shard doesn't make sense.

I can't wait to tell my Algerian shyt can friend the term. I always wondered what somebody would do in that bathroom if they had the shyts or something, and chuckled at the thought as I ****ed into that stinky hole in the floor.

Then one day I get a phone call "man, you will never guess what happened to me..."

You guys are right. I didn't listen properly. Mistook a 't' for a 'd'. Sharted. Lovely term.

Ak Zaaf mentioned Ian Thorpe. Thorpe raced only freestyle events. His world record for the 400m free stood till this years world champs where a German who a year before couldn't make the Olympic semis smashed his PB by 8 seconds and broke the WR by 0.01 seconds. Thorpe's 200m WR was only broken in 2007 by Phelps. He raced when the body suits were in their infancy, 3 generations before the LZR. Thorpe was a freak. World champion at 15 years. Genetically gifted. I loved how the American head coach coming into the 2000 Olympic Games was suggesting the government must have had him on HGH as a child. An american coach. Look at their team today. Dana Torres anyone? Katie Hoff and Natalie Coughlin are the only ones I think are definitely clean amongst the women.

I'll add in on King Carl. Fraud and cheat. He was dirtier than Johnson. But anyone remember who prosecuted him as the Canadian IOC delegate? **** Pound ring a bell. He said the incident taught him one thing. Both Charles Francis and Ben Johnson vehemently denied any wrong doing. He said he learnt that people will lie to your face about anything, especially doping and they can be very convincing. Lesson, question and query everything. The tragedy off doping. Women track and field 100m and 200m WR's. They have stood for 2 decades. Even Marion Jones couldn't touch them. The best are still almost half a second off her 200m record. Look up the footage on YouTube. Florence Griffith Joyner. Incredible athlete. The woman who set them was dead at 36 (might have been 38). Poor Flo Jo. Doping is evil and has a price.

Who is the biggest cheat/fraud. Depends on the sport and your interests. Here with cycling it is Lance. Cricket, Azarhuddin, Cronje and Malik all threw games for money. Captains of national teams I might add. Boxing has numerous rotten eggs. Baseball, NFL and the NBA all have such charming men in their ranks these days one could easily make an argument for their inclusion. I guess it is fair to say it is all relative to sport in focus.

 

[Digger]

did i say if he was right or wrong.. you are misinterpreting me...

i said he was bitter... and on the whole he expresses "opinion".. there is no correct answer in opinion..

So does reporting on reality equate to bitterness in your head?
Maybe he should bury his head in the sand and report fairytales.

 

[Digger]

Using Bernhard Kohl as an example of how the Tour in 2008 was a lot cleaner than other recent years

Using Kohl is very ironic.
Because people say Kimmage is too cynical and doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt. He gives Kohl the benefit in a positive way, is proven to be wrong in this instance, and people such as yourself use that against him. So he can't win.