The greatest individual sporting lie?

[Anonymous]

The biggest lie in cycling is that there is some necessary reason for all these guys to be shaving their legs. There isn't, other than to be part of the crowd and enjoy the looks of their shiny legs.

im guessing youve never sat in hospital with 3 hour old gashes in your legs and had the hairs removed from the wound one by one then... Made that mistake once, pedals where so much more vicious then, not like these nice smooth ones nowadays, nothing like going down in the bunch 20 years ago to rip sections out of your calves..

anyway.. made that mistake once, never again, shave, dont shave, youre choice, but it hurts a lot less if you do..

 

[Jonathonc]

I love these threads....

Lieing, cheating, doping. Sporting fraud, societal moral implosion. There are so may issues wrapped up in these threads. I'm never sure what people expect. Is driving a car faster than the speed limit breaking the law even though it's only punishable if you're CAUGHT doing it? Is not telling the person in front of you at the cash point that they have forgotten to wait for the £50 they wanted to withdraw and pocketing it yourself as bad as stealing £50 from a little old lady? The footballer who kicks the ball out themself and then shouts for a corner rather than say "refereee that should be a goal kick", the cricketer who knicks the ball and then doesn't walk, the tennis player who demands an injury time out just to disrupt their opponents rhythm - are they cheating or lieing or something worse?

If you believe that doing anything against the rules is lieing or cheating, then doping in sport is lieing and it is cheating. I personally believe that we all have a moral compass that is informed by rules and laws but that our actions are not solely determined by such laws and rules. I drive faster than the speed limit at times. I claim a corner when I kick the ball out myself. I don't walk at cricket unless the umpire says I'm out. I'd probably tell someone that they had forgotten to pick up their £50 from the cash point, though.

Therefore, I'm sorry to say, I don't believe in an absolute "thou shalt not cheat cos it's wrong mantra". I brief stint in professional football robbed me of any such notions, as did 15 years in big business. Sport and society anyone?

That's what makes doping, as well as lieing and cheating so fascinating. To me, all a sports person has to do is pass the specified drug tests in their sport in the same way as it's up to a referee or an umpire to decide who is in and who is out or the police to catch me speeding. Maybe I'm cynical but that's the only absolute we have.

Of course there is right and wrong but ultimately we are our own judge of right and wrong whilst rules and laws adjudicate in the wider world.

The biggest lie in sport. Simple really. The lie you tell yourself if your victories have been achieved by means outside the rules EVEN IF you haven't broken said rules.

Sport, celebrity, money and fame come and go. Families, kids, friends and MIRRORS last forever.

The biggest lie in sport. Apt really, given his drug-addled demise, Michael Jackson had it right - "I'm starting with the man in the mirror".

If I was a doped cyclist, winning races, I don't think I could sleep at night. Unless of course I thought everyone else was doing it and that cycling had no corinthian soul and...... that's probably another debate altogether!!

 

[Frosty]

Using Kohl is very ironic.
Because people say Kimmage is too cynical and doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt. He gives Kohl the benefit in a positive way, is proven to be wrong in this instance, and people such as yourself use that against him. So he can't win.

Lol, you ask for an example where he is wrong, i provide it and its me who is wrong.

Why shouldnt people use that when it comes to his judgement on other people? He got it wrong. Despite what you think of 'people like me' (whatever i am, as you dont know me!), you cant deny that this shows that he doesnt know everything/isnt a 100% reliable source. On a wider scale, being caught out once isnt such a bad thing, we all make mistakes, but it shows that he doesnt know everything.

 

[Skip Madness]

I personally believe that we all have a moral compass that is informed by rules and laws but that our actions are not solely determined by such laws and rules. I drive faster than the speed limit at times. I claim a corner when I kick the ball out myself. I don't walk at cricket unless the umpire says I'm out. I'd probably tell someone that they had forgotten to pick up their £50 from the cash point, though.

Therefore, I'm sorry to say, I don't believe in an absolute "thou shalt not cheat cos it's wrong mantra". I brief stint in professional football robbed me of any such notions, as did 15 years in big business. Sport and society anyone?

That's what makes doping, as well as lieing and cheating so fascinating. To me, all a sports person has to do is pass the specified drug tests in their sport in the same way as it's up to a referee or an umpire to decide who is in and who is out or the police to catch me speeding. Maybe I'm cynical but that's the only absolute we have.

I don't really understand why you think like this. The referee and the umpire and the police are the only absolute other people have, but you have the absolute of your own knowledge. I can't see where the fun is in claiming a corner when you kick it out yourself, or not walking if you know you should be out. You know, even if no-one else does.

Things like speed limits aren't as clear-cut, because if (for example) you were to break the speed limit on an empty motorway in the middle of the night, that's different from speeding outside a school. The former isn't necessarily right, but no-one is likely to lose out from it. But when you cheat in sport, you're cheating others even when they don't know about it. When cheating at something unfairly benefits you at the expense of others, I don't understand how anyone can't see that it's wrong.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Lieing, cheating, doping. Sporting fraud, societal moral implosion.
<snipped for brevity
>
If I was a doped cyclist, winning races, I don't think I could sleep at night. Unless of course I thought everyone else was doing it and that cycling had no corinthian soul and...... that's probably another debate altogether!!

The problem for the doped cyclist isn't the sleeping at night with a guilty conscience- it is the hope that they awake the following morning.

Doping is certainly 'cheating', lying, fraud - but it is because the advantages of doping are so great that it forces others to play 'Russian Roulette' with their health to, just to remain competitive.

 

[Escarabajo]

It appears you are unaware that there are plenty of methods to take a 49 Hct down to 42 within a matter of minutes, this is why it is against rules to make testers wait 55 minutes.

What Bro posted is very related to this, instead of a decrease of 12% in the third week he saw an 10% increase. The 50% drop in reticulocytes only makes his doping more obvious.

After Ferrari was convicted he sent out a press release saying that neither he, nor his team, would be working with him again. This was a lie. Ferrari was spotting staying at a hotel next to Armstrong''s house in Girona later that year, Armstrong sent a teammate an email talking about how happy Ferrari was with his progress in 2004. He was spotted with Levi and Armstrong at the same Hotel in Tenirefe in 2005. He was photographed coaching Danielson and Popo (amongst others) in 2006.

I think we can all agree that Armstrong never stopped working with Ferrari.

This is just a reminder that hematocrit level is not as telling as the offscore now. Let's take a look at this again.

OK, just entered all of LA's blood values from the past year into a spreadsheet and graphed it. Shaded in blue is the normal range (85-95) for OFF-score. Anyone want to bet that LA got transfused immediately before the TdF? Based on how quickly it dropped after 6/16/09, if he was tested a week earlier he may have been above the 133 cutoff. Seems ironic to me that these values were posted by LA as evidence that he doesn't dope...

 

[Angliru]

Costner was in the other one, Eddie Van Guyse was in Breaking Away.

My bad!! Well for me Costner being in the cast of any movie means an automatic pass on seeing it. Loved Break Away (even with the questionable bicycle pump incident). Just found American Flyers painful to watch.

 

[Angliru]

Pfftt. It's a bit revolting, but I've seen worse, that's no worse than so much else out there.

I think some of the posters forget they know a lot about armstrong - probably too much. Go searching/ obsessing for the dirt on a lot of athletes and you'll find as bad or worse. His charity doesn't even get that ratings that bad - what does that tell you about some others?

Aren't we all speaking on the basis of our individual knowledge? I can't fairly state I believe Carl Lewis is the biggest fraud if I hold more knowledge or info that supports Armstrong being that. Once again its just opinion.

 

[Max Power]

It appears you are unaware that there are plenty of methods to take a 49 Hct down to 42 within a matter of minutes, this is why it is against rules to make testers wait 55 minutes.

In the past, maybe, but that didn't happen in this Tour where testing is done straight after the stage. The only allegation was that they delayed testers early one morning. As you know, it makes no sense at all that they would be lowering their crits at that time of the morning. It's only necessary after a stage.

So my point stands. Armstrong's crit peaked at 45 and remained below that most of the time, yet he still came third after years out and age 37. It's an amazing achievement that shows he is deservedly one of the all time greats.

There have been no reports anywhere that LA was working with Ferrari this year. Unless you have evidence to the contrary you should refrain from making unsubstantuated allegations.

 

[Hugh Januss]

My bad!! Well for me Costner being in the cast of any movie means an automatic pass on seeing it. Loved Break Away (even with the questionable bicycle pump incident). Just found American Flyers painful to watch.

Ah, Costner's ok in short doses, but you're right Breaking Away was much the better movie. The pump scene was not near as bad as the scene where our hero is shown motorpacing behind a semi at 50 mph on his small chainring!

 

[Hugh Januss]

In the past, maybe, but that didn't happen in this Tour where testing is done straight after the stage. The only allegation was that they delayed testers early one morning. As you know, it makes no sense at all that they would be lowering their crits at that time of the morning. It's only necessary after a stage.

So my point stands. Armstrong's crit peaked at 45 and remained below that most of the time, yet he still came third after years out and age 37. It's an amazing achievement that shows he is deservedly one of the all time greats.

Pretty sure they only take urine samples immediately after the finish.

 

[Max Power]

Pretty sure they only take urine samples immediately after the finish.

False. They take bloods as well. They are immediately ushered away.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

False. They take bloods as well. They are immediately ushered away.

Wrong again.....

"There’s follow up testing and we’re using a range of different types of tests in the morning and in the evening. For example we’ll test riders for human growth hormone, homologous blood transfusion and CERA in the morning [there is no point doing this after the stage], and every rider had a biological passport test on Thursday in their hotels. Biological passport testing will also be conducted on several mornings during the race”

Anne Gripper - Head of UCI Anti Doping July 2009.

Now - Sproket01, BanProCycling, UnBanProCycling, BritishProCycling, TheArbiter - stop trying to derail threads with your ill informed opinion and keep it on topic.

 

[Kennf1]

False. They take bloods as well. They are immediately ushered away.

You wouldn't test for hematocrit levels when the athlete is the most dehydrated. You could always test for other things, but not to get a reliable hematocrit number.

 

[Race Radio]

In the past, maybe, but that didn't happen in this Tour where testing is done straight after the stage. The only allegation was that they delayed testers early one morning. As you know, it makes no sense at all that they would be lowering their crits at that time of the morning. It's only necessary after a stage.

There were other allegations as well. The rules state that once the Chaperons arrive and announce their presence they are not allowed to let the riders out of their sight. After the TTT Astana locked the chaperon outside their bus for 45 minutes.

Armstrong was only blood tested once after a stage, Stage 11. All the other post stage tests were urine only. All of his blood tests came in the morning. Of course this is according to Armstrong himself, given his habit of lying about doping I think we can all agree that the likelihood is high that he is lying again.

If your Hct is 49.5 making the chaperons wait 55 minutes while they have coffee with the staff is plenty of time to bring it down. You wonder how the staff knew the Chaperone? Perhaps it is because the UCI has employed a few former Pros to escort their former co-workers.

So my point stands. Armstrong's crit peaked at 45 and remained below that most of the time, yet he still came third after years out and age 37. It's an amazing achievement that shows he is deservedly one of the all time greats.

Armstrong's own numbers show that his off season baseline is 38.5. I think we can all agree that 45 in the third week of the Tour is a huge jump that is unexplained by anything other then doping.

Don't you get bored of Trolling? This obsession of yours gets stranger with each new username you sign up.

 

[Max Power]

You wouldn't test for hematocrit levels when the athlete is the most dehydrated. You could always test for other things, but not to get a reliable hematocrit number.

They have no reason to use seline solution to thin their blood in the morning. They would already have done that before they went to bed, if they had to, or before the evening test. The test in the morning is for homologus blood transfusions and EPO. Things like this. There is no evidence that any of the tests after the stage or in the evening were delayed this year. If people have evidence of this then they should produce it.

 

[Max Power]

There were other allegations as well. The rules state that once the Chaperons arrive and announce their presence they are not allowed to let the riders out of their sight. After the TTT Astana locked the chaperon outside their bus for 45 minutes.

Where is your evidence for this? The allegation had only been that they delayed one test in the morning. You should produce evidence instead of assertion. Then we can look at that and assess the situation.

Armstrong was only blood tested once after a stage, Stage 11.

And there is no evidence this test was delayed in the slightest. This post stage blood test could have happened at any time, it proves that he didn't not use saline. How would he know not to have a high crit that day?

All of his blood tests came in the morning. Of course this is according to Armstrong himself, given his habit of lying about doping I think we can all agree that the likelihood is high that he is lying again.[/QUOTE]

Why? The tests were open and published.

If your Hct is 49.5 making the chaperons wait 55 minutes while they have coffee with the staff is plenty of time to bring it down. You wonder how the staff knew the Chaperone? Perhaps it is because the UCI has employed a few former Pros to escort their former co-workers.

It makes no sense to do that early in the morning. It's always an evening job. Sleeping with a high crit is dangerous.

Armstrong's own numbers show that his off season baseline is 38.5

.

Got any evidence for that? Forgive me if I don't trust your repeated assertions. 38.5 seems a bit low to be honest for an athlete. That's bordererline anemic. Maybe you are using a slight of hand by using his lowest record number and using that as a baseline?

I think we can all agree that 45 in the third week of the Tour is a huge jump that is unexplained by anything other then doping.

It might be doping, or it might not be. Most of his results are a couple of points below that. There could be a number of reasons, such as the time of day the test was taken and the level of hydration, that could produce a number like that. Ironically as the Tour goes on, there is more chance of dyhydration.

However, as I said, my point was not about doping. That is irrelevent, I'm pointing out that his blood cell ratio maxed out at 45 and most of the time was below that, yet he came third at the age of 37 after several years out. Other riders such as Basso had crits in the 47s at some points yet finished well down the rankings. This proves that LA is deservedly an all time great.

 

[Race Radio]

The Herpes of the message board has returned. Another thread derailed by mindless garbage.

 

[Max Power]

The Herpes of the message board has returned. Another thread derailed by mindless garbage.

You are refusing to engage in debate about the topic. I'll take that as conceding to my points.

I should point out that making unsubstantiated allegations and refusing to back up your claims with sources and evidence is a blatant form of trolling. Please cut it out.

 

[Digger]

You are refusing to engage in debate about the topic. I'll take that as conceding to my points.

I should point out that making unsubstantiated allegations and refusing to back up your claims with sources and evidence is a blatant form of trolling. Please cut it out.

You're a worrying example of what the recession and unemployment can do to people. Scary stuff.
I understand the nature of trolling, but with you there's something extremely disconcerting going on.

 

[Max Power]

You're a worrying example of what the recession and unemployment can do to people. Scary stuff.
I understand the nature of trolling, but with you there's something extremely disconcerting going on.

To be honest I don't think we should pretend we know Race Radio's job circumstance. We don't, and it only goes down to his level of trolling to suggest we do. Throwing around unsupported allegations is what he does. If he wants to troll then that's up to him - we should just stick to the issue and not rise to the bait.

Lets keep it on topic.

 

[Kennf1]

To be honest I don't think we should pretend we know Race Radio's job circumstance. We don't, and it only goes down to his level of trolling to suggest we do. Throwing around unsupported allegations is what he does. If he wants to troll then that's up to him - we should just stick to the issue and not rise to the bait.

Lets keep it on topic.

The topic of the thread? It's what do you consider the greatest individual sporting lie.

So what is your opinion on that topic?

 

[Max Power]

The topic of the thread? It's what do you consider the greatest individual sporting lie.

So what is your opinion on that topic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuS4glCoRqU

 

[Race Radio]

You are refusing to engage in debate about the topic. I'll take that as conceding to my points.

I should point out that making unsubstantiated allegations and refusing to back up your claims with sources and evidence is a blatant form of trolling. Please cut it out.

Thank you for proving my point

 

[Hugh Januss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuS4glCoRqU

Thanks for the link. It was nice to watch Contador drop that old fart Armstrong without having to listen to Phil Limpet drone on about how awesome Lance is.