The latest Astana affair

[Beech Mtn]

I'm guessing this whole process takes so long because it is being done by French legal authorities (police, etc) rather than by AFLD/UCI/WADA. There are probably very specific channels/paperwork that have to be dealt with along the way, getting permission from a judge to test these items, to match against DNA samples, etc. Just speculation on my part, but since all this is directly relating to the handling of evidence, it probably does take some time.

 

[Sprocket01]

Mystery man, no one else was baited by it apart from you. It also happens to be true. I got the information from reading the second link I provided, which does not specify whether it was during the stage or not, but does say it happened in front of a witness, so I assumed it was during the stage. Whether it was or not doesn't matter - even if it was during the stage, what is baiting about that? HE STILL TOOK THE IRON INJECTION.

Surely it would have been better not to derail the thread by again having a semantic argument with me and instead focusing on the baiting story that doesn't even appear to be true?

 

[Sprocket01]

User Bala Verde asks whether syringes are still allow to be used. Why is he not being attacked for trolling? Jesus Christ!

 

[hfer07]

so minus all the personal bias here what is the real issue?

Is the the medical/doping methods in question or is it the potential contents of the syringes?

It has to do with the content of those syringes-If AFSSAPS (Agence française de sécurité sanitaire des produits de santé) finds "undeclared" products used in the tour by any rider/team without previous approval/authorization by either them, the Tour organizers, or used under "medical exception or authorized prescription" -that could get ugly, since is considered "criminal offense" under French law and is liable for prosecution.....

 

[Race Radio]

Mystery man, no one else was baited by it apart from you. It also happens to be true. I got the information from reading the second link I provided, which does not specify whether it was during the stage or not, but does say it happened in front of a witness, so I assumed it was during the stage. Whether it was or not doesn't matter - even if it was during the stage, what is baiting about that? HE STILL TOOK THE IRON INJECTION.

Surely it would have been better not to derail the thread by again having a semantic argument with me and instead focusing on the baiting story that doesn't even appear to be true?

Ever the victim.

It appears you are upset that more people did not react to your obvious attempt at baiting.

Your shtick is getting old.

 

[Rupert]

Issues

so minus all the personal bias here what is the real issue?
Is the the medical/doping methods in question or is it the potential contents of the syringes?

This seems consistent with a pattern of fighting things out in the press, with or without any legal merit to the case. The delay in testing and announcing the test, along with "chain of custody" and other issues that would surely be a problem in proving anything to a standard that would hold up formally (in court or through WADA procedures or whatever). It seems like the only thing to be gained here is to further discredit cycling, with the press eagerly participating so they can sell papers. Just generating the headlines about syringes in the trash serves to discredit everyone involved in the race, especially the "winners," without ever having to perform any testing or prove anything to any kind of standard. Why not just do the testing and then announce the result if anything substantial is revealed?

 

[Race Radio]

It has to do with the content of those syringes-If AFSSAPS (Agence française de sécurité sanitaire des produits de santé) finds "undeclared" products used in the tour by any rider/team without previous approval/authorization by either them, the Tour organizers, or used under "medical exception or authorized prescription" -that could get ugly, since is considered "criminal offense" under French law and is liable for prosecution.....

I think that all the teams have to declare what medicine they are bringing into France for the Tour. If it is not on their declared list they could be in trouble

 

[bianchigirl]

Seems several teams are involved http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8305492.stm

This has been all over the English media - RTE, Sky Sports the lot - which suggests it's something rather than nothing. The fact that Damien Ressiot has been allowed to report this in Equipe (after they were both effectively muzzled to allow Armstrong's TdF return in safety) suggests that something is definitely up.

Now, I wonder if Bordry's AFLD have a test ready for hematide after all?

 

[RhodriM]

Seems several teams are involved http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8305492.stm

This has been all over the English media - RTE, Sky Sports the lot - which suggests it's something rather than nothing. The fact that Damien Ressiot has been allowed to report this in Equipe (after they were both effectively muzzled to allow Armstrong's TdF return in safety) suggests that something is definitely up.

Now, I wonder if Bordry's AFLD have a test ready for hematide after all?

I think it'll come to nothing, but you're right that there usually is a delay before mainstream English media are willing to report anything.

 

[cromagnon]

It would be ironic if the syringes were just vitamins... but purely by coming into contact with rider blood they became contaminated with drugs

They will find nothing, those that can afford it go the transfusion route unless it's HGH/Insulin/Roids they find. Hardly seems worth it the Tour was largely a procession.

 

[BroDeal]

I have a hard time believing that Astana will get caught with anything. After Bruyneel's team had their medical waste picked up in 2000, they should be well aware of the potential dangers. Even back then Bruyneel was paranoid enough to have his people drive kilometers away from the hotel to get rid of stuff.

I guess there is always the chance of a screw-up. A soigneur who was supposed to discretly dispose of garbage could have taken the easy way out and dropped the stuff in an official bin instead of following orders.

It is more likely that, as Race Radio says, a team is caught using undeclared products.

 

[poupou]

I have a hard time believing that Astana will get caught with anything. After Bruyneel's team had their medical waste picked up in 2000, they should be well aware of the potential dangers. Even back then Bruyneel was paranoid enough to have his people drive kilometers away from the hotel to get rid of stuff.

I guess there is always the chance of a screw-up. A soigneur who was supposed to discretly dispose of garbage could have taken the easy way out and dropped the stuff in an official bin instead of following orders.

It is more likely that, as Race Radio says, a team is caught using undeclared products.

With the anti-doping laws, management is between the hammer and the anvil: by keeping for a long time dubious stuff they increase the possibility to be stopped by customs or police!

 

[buckwheat]

It has to do with the content of those syringes-If AFSSAPS (Agence française de sécurité sanitaire des produits de santé) finds "undeclared" products used in the tour by any rider/team without previous approval/authorization by either them, the Tour organizers, or used under "medical exception or authorized prescription" -that could get ugly, since is considered "criminal offense" under French law and is liable for prosecution.....

Do you think we'd extradite Wonder Boy to France to face the music?

 

[bianchigirl]

Whilst you would imagine that Astana would have been careful with their trash, you don't have to be that careful if you're convinced that nobody's going to find the products you're using because the tests don't (apparently) exist.

 

[cromagnon]

Latest [insert team here] affair. Could be anyone.

Nevertheless read the first comment on the article on Eurosport, frickin hilarious.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/13102009/58/tour-de-france-tour-syringes-under-analysis.html

 

[BroDeal]

I find it a little disturbing that there are official bins for medical waste at the Tour.

 

[cromagnon]

I find it a little disturbing that there are official bins for medical waste at the Tour.

Biohazard bins I think. It's illegal to put stuff that has touched blood/mucous/semen/other ape secretions, in to regular bins.

Actually mucous might be ok, either that or so impractical the law is ignored i.e. blowing your nose and throwing the hankey into a normal bin. But you definitely can't have a w@nk into a bin you will get in to serious trouble believe me. Not sure if it's ok into a biohazard bin.

 

[luckyboy]

Does anyone know when that rule came in about not being able to use syringes? I've looked at the UCI's rules, but that doesn't help

 

[HoustonHammer]

right. the wada code downright prohibits the use of any and all iv needles and strictly regulates the use of other syringe sizes by medical necessity. it was introduced to guard against illegal blood transfusions and dilutions. diluca was accused of nothing less but got away in 2008.

That's not quite right. WADA prohibits IV's except for medical necessity and allows all other injections that don't involve prohibited substances. If you go to WADA's website, you can review the 2009 Prohibited list, which states under Prohibited Methods - M2: Chemical and Physical Manipulation, paragraph 2, "Intravenous infusions are prohibited except in the management of surgical procedures, medical emergencies or clinical investigations."

WADA further amplifies its stance in its explanatory note to the 2009 list and states that "Injections with a simple syringe are not prohibited as a method if the injected substance is not prohibited and if the volume does not exceed 50 mL."

So, the presence of syringes alone should not be a problem for any team. If there are other pieces of equipment that suggest IV infusions, though, it's another matter entirely.

You can read the docs referenced above here:
-2009 Prohibited List
-Explanatory note to 2009 List

 

[Digger]

I didn't. I simply said it was 'that tour' and assumed people knew what tour I was talking about. It's in the first article I linked to - that's what I was refering to. In that article it did not repeat the term 'Giro' each time it refered to events during that tour. It said 'later duing the tour' and such like.

Thank you.

And why did you bring Lemond into the thread?

 

[Oldnell]

Thank you for proving you are a troll.

Even with your limited comprehension skills you can see there is nothing in those links that talks about "seen shooting up during a stage". Also Lemond never took an iron injection in front of the Velonew reporter, he came down to the hotel lobby after he had an iron injection and told the reporter that he had taken one.

Your attempts to highjack every thread with ridiculous claims that you can never back up are pathetic. No wonder you keep getting banned.

I don't go here often because the I find revolting pathetic drivel that the most of the excellence haters on this forum spew. However if the administrators threaten banning sprocket because he takes issue with "Race Radio" and "Thought for Food". It is clear that they are part of the problem.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't go here often because the I find revolting pathetic drivel that the most of the excellence haters on this forum spew. However if the administrators threaten banning sprocket because he takes issue with "Race Radio" and "Thought for Food". It is clear that they are part of the problem.

Ahh, the angry old man sockpuppet. We missed you.I think we can all agree that BPC gets banned all the time because he is a troll, not because I point out his lies.

 

[Sprocket01]

I don't go here often because the I find revolting pathetic drivel that the most of the excellence haters on this forum spew. However if the administrators threaten banning sprocket because he takes issue with "Race Radio" and "Thought for Food". It is clear that they are part of the problem.

Cheers mate. You're not the only one who has expressed these sentiments to me today.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Cheers mate. You're not the only one who has expressed these sentiments to me today.

Wonderlance also?

 

[red_flanders]

We have no topic at all. Do you really believe that teams that were doping would dispose of their medical waste in official disposal containers? Unless I'm misreading the press release, that where these syringes were found. Think about it.

I've been hearing arguments like this for on about a decade now.

• Why would Heras dope just before this stage? Makes no sense. Result? He did.

• Why would Kohl dope when he knew he was getting tested? Makes no sense. Result? Popped.

• Why would Floyd take a drug he knew they were testing for and then go for the win when he knew he'd be tested? Makes no sense. Result? Doper!

• Why would Lance post his blood values on his website if they were incriminating? That would be stupid. Result: Values removed!

• Why would Garzelli use a known, old and illegal masking agent like Probenicid? Makes no sense. Result? Popped!

• Why would DiLuca use CERA when he knew they had a test for it? Makes no sense. Result: Boom!

The history of cycling is rife with stupid choices by dopers who are very confident they know how to beat the system. That a thing is stupid does not eliminate it's possibility of being true. Speaks to arrogance and the complete ingrained culture of doping.

I don't know if there's anything to this--but it's being stupid almost seems to make it more likely.