Teams & Riders The official Wilco Kelderman is the new Merckx-thread

[Rollthedice]

A normal rider in the shape of his life gets run over by a train.

 

[savornin]

I disagree, the rider most destined too win GT's was clearly Gesink. He was looked at as a huge talent. Dumoulin was destined when he won the Giro perhaps but he was not looked at as a huge talent for GT's like Gesink.

As far as I know, Robert Gesink has never been seen as a top tier talent who was destined to win GT's. And his ITT has never been good. Have you got any articles about Gesink the Evenepoel-like talent?

 

[SafeBet]

As far as I know, Robert Gesink has never been seen as a top tier talent who was destined to win GT's.

I reckon you weren't around here in early 2010s.

 

[Colombianfan]

As far as I know, Robert Gesink has never been seen as a top tier talent who was destined to win GT's. And his ITT has never been good. Have you got any articles about Gesink the Evenepoel-like talent?

What a silly comment lol, hardly anyone has had the hype like Evanepoel and rightly so. Got any on Dumoulin by any chance? lol i suggest you go and watch the 2008/2009 Vuelta a Espana at like 21 years of age or 22. Dumoulin was never looked at as destined for multiple GT's as you claim. Gesink perhaps not either but he was looked at as a far bigger talent than Dumoulin ever was. I was on here a decade ago before losing my login details when i changed laptop. Nibali being less of a rider/talent was a thing for a few years on here lmao.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Is there a more Kelderman thing than having your personal thread derailed by tennis talk while being that close to winning a GT?

I mean seriously give this guy a break.

Not only this, but that the discussion was about an Australian player who's peak was two decades ago!

Come on!!

 

[Colombianfan]

I reckon you weren't around here in early 2010s.

I remember the time when Nibali was winning La Vuelta and getting blitzed in the Giro and the Dutchies were claiming Gesink could do better. That is how highly thought of Gesink was he was looked at as a future star

 

[Salvarani]

Looked like he dug really deep today. He has done a good race. A podium seems very likely.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

As far as I know, Robert Gesink has never been seen as a top tier talent who was destined to win GT's. And his ITT has never been good. Have you got any articles about Gesink the Evenepoel-like talent?

Gesink showed huge potential in his first seasons as a pro, and was also able to do fine ITTs from time to time.
I enjoyed his showing in the 2008 Paris Nice, when he battled with Evans on the queen stage. He most definitely looked like a future GT winner back then.

 

[Red Rick]

Gesink was a revelation at the national level in that he was the biggest Dutch GT talent in a LONG time (along with Thomas Dekker, but then he got popped).

Was also battling for La Vuelta win in 2009 but then crashed and got 6th or some ***. He was really good, really young, and then crashes hurt him and I guess he never made that final step.

 

[johnymax]

Time to go on Dutch media watch I reckon.

So what does the Dutch media say?

 

[Red Rick]

So what does the Dutch media say?

Mostly crying about Sunweb tactics, not letting Hindley wait on the Stelvio.

 

[savornin]

Thanks for all the feedback. Differing opinions are classified as 'silly comments'? Nice.

I've been following cycling since around 1986, the Lemond Hinault LaVieClaire Tour rivalry. Gesink started out pretty bright as far as I remember, but in my opinion not on a more promising level than Dumoulin or Kelderman did. Can't remember he's ever been threatening to win a GT, but I'm happy to hear otherwise from you all. Maybe some Dutch people got a bit excited at the time as he was probably the most gifted new Dutch GT talent after a very barren spell since the Rooks/Theunisse/Breukink era that lasted until 1991. After that, only Boogerd who was 5th in the doping-tour of 1998 but never really troubled the big guns.

 

[savornin]

I'm Dutch and don't mind Sunweb's tactics. I was rooting for Kelderman, but he just was outclassed a LOT by Hart, Hindley and Dennis in the last two mountain stages. Wanna win the Giro and be a real champ? Follow them.

 

[Colombianfan]

Thanks for all the feedback. Differing opinions are classified as 'silly comments'? Nice.

I've been following cycling since around 1986, the Lemond Hinault LaVieClaire Tour rivalry. Gesink started out pretty bright as far as I remember, but in my opinion not on a more promising level than Dumoulin or Kelderman did. Can't remember he's ever been threatening to win a GT, but I'm happy to hear otherwise from you all. Maybe some Dutch people got a bit excited at the time as he was probably the most gifted new Dutch GT talent after a very barren spell since the Rooks/Theunisse/Breukink era that lasted until 1991. After that, only Boogerd who was 5th in the doping-tour of 1998 but never really troubled the big guns.

Sorry dint mean to call you silly but just dint get the Evanepoel thing, Gesink was for sure looked at as more promising than Dumoulin was that is what im saying. I for sure thought he was the next best after Andy Schleck back in the day for the future. I thought he would nab a few GT's(not the TDF)

 

[savornin]

Sorry dint mean to call you silly but just dint get the Evanepoel thing, Gesink was for sure looked at as more promising than Dumoulin was that is what im saying. I for sure thought he was the next best after Andy Schleck back in the day for the future. I thought he would nab a few GT's(not the TDF)

Thanks, no hard feelings.
Don't know if others agree, but I have this sneaking feeling that Dutch GT riders are too nice and they miss that extra snap in order to dominate. In cycling it sometimes helps to be an intimidating killer, be it in behavior like Hinault and Armstrong or in the race like Froome and Nibali. Or even crazy fighters like Almeida or Alaphilippe (well Dumo gave good fight in 17 18).

Kelderman, Gesink, Mollema, Kruijswijk, Breukink, Boogerd, all nice guys but no killers. No one is afraid of them and they don't play mind games or ambush their rivals. They're more prey than hunters. They do not have a withering acceleration like Pantani or Roglic, their tempo is predictable and one-dimensional and they will be dropped by high-speed attacks. Even when one of them is the best, like Kruijswijk Giro 2016, he is put to the sword by killer Nibali. Even Dumoulin, who is really strong, was behaving in a self-defeating manner this year and seems to be happy to be a mere dom of Roglic. All these GT guys should have a good talk with Matthieu van der Poel.

How come? Maybe I'm generalizing too much, but in my humble personal opinion we Dutch are pretty happy and friendly people and most of us have a good and pretty easy life, we don't have to fight hard for existence. Also, while we are very talkative, we do lack the temper that some mediterannean countries like Italy, France and Spain have. That's why those countries breed riders like Nibali, Pantani, Contador, Hinault and Alaphilippe, combustible agressive riders. And we have Kelderman, Kruijswijk, Gesink and Breukink. Now which of these riders will figure in heroic stories by the fireside in 50 years time?

I am looking forward to the opinion of my fellow Dutchmen on this....

 

[Colombianfan]

Thanks, no hard feelings.
Don't know if others agree, but I have this sneaking feeling that Dutch GT riders are too nice and they miss that extra snap in order to dominate. In cycling it sometimes helps to be an intimidating killer, be it in behavior like Hinault and Armstrong or in the race like Froome and Nibali. Kelderman, Gesink, Mollema, Kruijswijk, all nice guys but no killers. Even when one of them is the best, like Kruijswijk Giro 2016, he is put to the sword by killer Nibali. Even Dumoulin, who is really strong, was behaving in a self-defeating manner this year and seems to be happy to be a mere dom of Roglic. All these GT guys should have a good talk with Matthieu van der Poel.

Yup even Dumoulin when he took a dump was quite lucky and as you MVDP is a stone cold killer. The rest just don't seem to have it, maybe Arensman could be a future GT winner? He seems quite promising tbh just not sure if he is great in the high mountains.

 

[staubsauger]

[

I'm Dutch and don't mind Sunweb's tactics. I was rooting for Kelderman, but he just was outclassed a LOT by Hart, Hindley and Dennis in the last two mountain stages. Wanna win the Giro and be a real champ? Follow them.

It would have felt wrong if Kelderman had become the Dutch Giro d'Italia winner Erik Breukink never was!

If Breukink was your reference point regarding Dutch gt talents I fully understand your judgment on Gesink given the way his fellow Guelders man ballooned onto the cycling scene back in the 80s!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Ok, so i didn't expect him to really lose that much time in todays stage. Sure, 20 or 30 seconds, but still good enough to finish it in the ITT... I was wrong. This time, nothing bad happened, all real favorites were absent or crashed out, and still he couldn't finish it. Then the only conclusion is that he's a nice rider and probably a nice guy, but he's just not good enough to win a GT even against a weak field. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity for him i'm afraid. Seems like the 3rd week is too much for him.

 

[Pippo_San]

I recall the good old times when he was referred to as KelderMerckx. Good stuff those years. And yes, the condor Bobby Gesink was considered a huge talent at that time, sadly marred by misfortunes, poor bike handling, and probably poor personality. I guess we've seen a lot of potential GT winner stuff during the years that didn't live to expectations...Gesink, Kelderman, Kreuziger, Mollema, Kruijswijk, the Schlecks, Pinot...just to mention a few.
This guy totally wasted the biggest chance of his life today.

 

[savornin]

To me the problem was his stamina and recuperation over three weeks. He seemed to be the strongest GC rider in the first week. In the last week couldn't keep up with the two youngsters. Now I don't think these two are better climbers than Kelderman, but I think Kelderman was exhausted and below par this last week. In-form Kelderman will not lose contact with Hart and Hindley at the start of climbs. That being said, it's not unusual for riders to fade in third GT week. Actually Kelderman is a natural successor of 2018 and 2019 maglia rosa fadeaways Yates and Roglic.

 

[lenric]

Let's just hope that Evenepoel doesn't turn out to be the Chinese Democracy of cycling.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

To be fair. I think Kelderman could have won this Giro if Ineos didn't have Rohan Dennis.
I don't think Hart (and with him Hindley) himself would be able to recup so much time if it was, say, Castroviejo instead of Dennis here.

That being said, the best riders are now in 1 and 2 so it feels very different than from when Kruijswijk lost pink while clearly being the best.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

To be fair. I think Kelderman could have won this Giro if Ineos didn't have Rohan Dennis.
I don't think Hart (and with him Hindley) himself would be able to recup so much time if it was, say, Castroviejo instead of Dennis here.

That being said, the best riders are now in 1 and 2 so it feels very different than from when Kruijswijk lost pink while clearly being the best.

You mean if Ineos was even weaker than they already were? Hart wasn't even their leader, Thomas was. This is like saying "Almeida could have won if on top of Evenepoel, Thomas, Lopez, Vlasov and a dozen other stronger guys, also Kelderman, Hindley and Hart weren't there". I mean, he practically got it giftwrapped and still couldn't seal the deal.

What shocked me most, was the apparent lack of fighting spirit. You could say it's smart to ride your own pace, but when it's moneytime and the race is slipping away from you, i'd expect a bit more heart and fight. He just let Bilbao and Fuglsang pass him, didn't even try to follow. Same thing the day after with Almeida. If he were to have finished along with Almeida, you know, the difference would be 55 seconds. Granted, still probably too much to take back in the ITT, but maybe enough to catch Hindley, and with one flat tyre of Hart, who knows. No, not even that, like he already made peace with the notion that he was not going to win and didn't really care either. Like some self fulfilling prophecy that he was indeed a looser. If Kelderman had Almeida's fighting spirit and determination, he would have won this Giro by 2 minutes.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

He didnt try to follow Bilbao and Fugl because he was already totally spent from chasing the downhill and the flat part alone.
Bilbao and Fuglsang had eachother.

When Fugl saw they were catching he put in a tiny acceleration. Because he knew Kelderman would probably be spent from chasing alone. That was smart from Fuglsang. It had nothing to do with heart.

I'm kinda annoyed you, and many others unfortunately, often blame Kelderman for not fighting back or for having no fighting spirit. Which is simply because of the way his facial expressions are (i think). But that is not giving Kelderman any credit whatsoever. Apart from the countless amount of times he had to come back from a heavy injury, he never really gives up and never completely cracks. I think he honestly did what he could. And when people like you kinda rip into him like that I find it kinda easy criticism... and not warranted. I simply don't agree he doesn't have the fight Almeida does.

May I remind you Almeida did far worse on Stelvio while still having support around him... Should I say that's a lack of fighting spirit as well?
No, because i'm not blind to see Almeida fought hard.
Neither should you that Kelderman did.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

He didnt try to follow Bilbao and Fugl because he was already totally spent from chasing the downhill and the flat part alone.
Bilbao and Fuglsang had eachother.

When Fugl saw they were catching he put in a tiny acceleration. Because he knew Kelderman would probably be spent from chasing alone. That was smart from Fuglsang. It had nothing to do with heart.

I'm kinda annoyed you, and many others unfortunately, often blame Kelderman for not fighting back or for having no fighting spirit. Which is simply because of the way his facial expressions are (i think). But that is not giving Kelderman any credit whatsoever. Apart from the countless amount of times he had to come back from a heavy injury, he never really gives up and never completely cracks. I think he honestly did what he could. And when people like you kinda rip into him like that I find it kinda easy criticism... and not warranted. I simply don't agree he doesn't have the fight Almeida does.

May I remind you Almeida did far worse on Stelvio while still having support around him... Should I say that's a lack of fighting spirit as well?
No, because i'm not blind to see Almeida fought hard.
Neither should you that Kelderman did.

You don't have to agree. And while i'm sure he's had to fight back from injuries many times, i still didn't see a guy that would rather eat his bike than getting dropped. It's also not just about facial expressions, but squeezing the last bit of strength out of your body, about suffering. Obviously, this is down to interpretation, but to me he didn't look like that at all.