How is the workload on the thighs reduced by half? If what you claim is true (having the arms supply power to the pedal stroke) the you are actually increasing the work that the thighs do. Any contribution to the system (the actions that are happening between the handlebars and the pedals) has to at some point be dealt with the thighs if you are going to make use of that contribution at the pedals.
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twothirds said:
It's pretty simple. A theory based on what he thinks he sees from film footage from 60 years ago and a theory he has developed based on what he thinks is happening without any form of measurement whatsoever. Ric Stern and Jim Martin have both offered to test his theories using force measuring pedals but out come the BS excuses.
Engaging him in debate is only for amusement!
twothirds said:
All the forward max power at TDC is coming from the hips through the knees with minimal use of thigh muscles, the arms are used for resistance purposes only to counteract that forward force at TDC. More use of hip power also takes place at the start of the downward sector of this extended power stroke. CF's knowledge of pedalling is no better than that of a child on its first trike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
coapman said:
That's incredible to think that max force can go through the bent leg without much effort from the thigh (assuming you mean quads here?).
Too bad that video you love doesn't show anything about pedalling technique. Just shows a guy riding a bike just like everyone else.
JamesCun said:
That's why greater torque can be applied at 12 and 1 o'c than at 3 o'c. The force at 3 o'c has to come downward from the knee, the force at 12 and 1 is coming forward from the hip with the assistance of all muscles from hip to toe.
coapman said:
As a minimum, the knee extensors must isometricly contract with enough force to transfer the power through the leg to the pedal. Doesn't matter if the knee is moving forward or down. In fact, if the body was directly stacked in a vertical line, the bone would transfer the power. Maybe why sanding gives more power than sitting?
JamesCun said:
Yes, applying maximal forward torque at TDC and 1 o'c while using arm power for resistance is similar to having the body in a vertical line when standing on the pedals when the entire weight of the body can be easily used as pedal power. But when seated your max pedal power between 2-4 o'c will depend on how much of your bodyweight your thigh can transfer to the knee.
Would love to see someone trying to do that while measuring power at the pedals and at the cranks and hooked up to a metabolic cart. Sounds horrendously inefficient and probably why you don't see many people paying attention to Noel.
Like many riders perhaps Jacques succeeded in spite of the way it appears he pedals.
Like many riders perhaps Jacques succeeded in spite of the way it appears he pedals.
twothirds said:
Yup, sad that people can't recognise that how you pedal has a minimal effect compared to the time spent practicing pedalling as you intend to perform. Coyle proclaimed this quite clearly in 1991. Some people, it would appear, are slow learners.
--------------------CoachFergie said:
Just for clarification ...
Do your really mean
"as you intend to perform"
or
"as you will actually pedal during the event"
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
The full power can be transmitted through the knee as long as the pedal is moving down, even when the knee extensors are non-existent (e.g., above the knee amputees do pretty well without any knee extensors). This is possible because the two end points of the legs are fixed at the saddle and the pedal and the power developed by the glutes is transferred through the bones. It is a simple structural engineering problem to solve.JamesCun said:
A few questions about your claim as to what Coyle proclaimed? Exactly what did he proclaim? Did he prove his proclamation? Back in 1991, how much time did the average cyclist spend "practicing pedaling" technique? Was it ever shown by Coyle that someone substantially changed their technique through practice and it made no difference (for better or worse)? One person who, around this time, did spend quite a bit of time practicing pedaling technique (because he thought it important) was Greg LeMond and he seemed to do ok.CoachFergie said:
I notice Pioneer is now advertising here as follows:
Knowledge is power, Power is king, Find your cycling weakness and destroy it
For those who have objected to any implication that technique matters I wonder what you think of this ad? I presume they are talking about looking at pedaling technique because that is what they do (beyond measuring total power). What weaknesses could they possibly be talking about? Why would it matter? Do you consider it false advertising?
Knowledge is power, Power is king, Find your cycling weakness and destroy it
For those who have objected to any implication that technique matters I wonder what you think of this ad? I presume they are talking about looking at pedaling technique because that is what they do (beyond measuring total power). What weaknesses could they possibly be talking about? Why would it matter? Do you consider it false advertising?
Re:
False advertising? You'll have to explain how that could be the case. "Knowledge is power" makes total sense.
"Power is king" some certainly believe this to be the case in cycling (aero is also king). "Find your cycling weakness and destroy it" sounds pretty generic and could apply to any sport or endeavour.
They might imply some things in that ad, or they might not? You read it one way, others might read it another way. They are, after all, trying to sell a power measuring device. They make a reference to power, but no direct reference to pedalling technique (maybe more appropriate to discuss in the powermeter thread).
FrankDay said:
False advertising? You'll have to explain how that could be the case. "Knowledge is power" makes total sense.
"Power is king" some certainly believe this to be the case in cycling (aero is also king). "Find your cycling weakness and destroy it" sounds pretty generic and could apply to any sport or endeavour.
They might imply some things in that ad, or they might not? You read it one way, others might read it another way. They are, after all, trying to sell a power measuring device. They make a reference to power, but no direct reference to pedalling technique (maybe more appropriate to discuss in the powermeter thread).
Re: Re:
So, let me get this straight. Pioneer is now selling a power meter whose main distinction is that it displays pedal forces (magnitude and direction), in other words, pedaling technique. And you think their advertising copy
My problem with that ad is not with their implication that technique matters, I believe it does. The problem I see is they imply that knowledge of weaknesses makes it easy to "destroy" them (with subsequent implied improvement). It is not. Knowledge is a necessary condition to fix weaknesses but it, alone, is not a sufficient one when it comes to unconscious pedaling technique, at least to "destroy" them. Of course, the other problem I have is the knowledge they provide is almost impossible to interpret, especially for the lay person. My guess is that Pioneer will increase awareness of pedaling technique importance but reinforce how difficult it is to change things.
JamesCun said:
So, let me get this straight. Pioneer is now selling a power meter whose main distinction is that it displays pedal forces (magnitude and direction), in other words, pedaling technique. And you think their advertising copy
could be read as saying nothing about technique being important to improvement, that those are just generic words that could apply to lots of stuff? I'll bet they would be very disappointed to hear that.
My problem with that ad is not with their implication that technique matters, I believe it does. The problem I see is they imply that knowledge of weaknesses makes it easy to "destroy" them (with subsequent implied improvement). It is not. Knowledge is a necessary condition to fix weaknesses but it, alone, is not a sufficient one when it comes to unconscious pedaling technique, at least to "destroy" them. Of course, the other problem I have is the knowledge they provide is almost impossible to interpret, especially for the lay person. My guess is that Pioneer will increase awareness of pedaling technique importance but reinforce how difficult it is to change things.
Frank,
It's a case of product differentiation. Since there are already a good number of well regarded power meters on the market, in order to be successful, new entries into the market need to either be cheaper, or perceived to offer some advantage. Any watcher of "Mad Men" would understand the concept.
Hugh
It's a case of product differentiation. Since there are already a good number of well regarded power meters on the market, in order to be successful, new entries into the market need to either be cheaper, or perceived to offer some advantage. Any watcher of "Mad Men" would understand the concept.
Hugh
Re:
Some here have stated emphatically that technique doesn't matter. That was the purpose of my question to those people. If it doesn't matter, do they think the Pioneer people are engaged in false advertising? Do they think this product snake oil?
Either technique matters or it doesn't. I presume it does. It seems to me that here on the pedaling technique thread we should be discussing what constitutes an optimum technique (as best as we can guess) so the users of the Pioneer system know how to identify their technique weaknesses so they can then endeavor to "destroy" them.
Of course, Pioneer has differentiated themselves by measuring and displaying pedaling vector forces. They obviously, from their copy, believe that knowing this information can identify technique or training weaknesses that can help the user to "destroy" those weaknesses to the overall benefit (increased power) of that user (beyond what they can achieve without the information).sciguy said:
Some here have stated emphatically that technique doesn't matter. That was the purpose of my question to those people. If it doesn't matter, do they think the Pioneer people are engaged in false advertising? Do they think this product snake oil?
Either technique matters or it doesn't. I presume it does. It seems to me that here on the pedaling technique thread we should be discussing what constitutes an optimum technique (as best as we can guess) so the users of the Pioneer system know how to identify their technique weaknesses so they can then endeavor to "destroy" them.
Re: Re:
They are selling a power meter. It happens to have the somewhat unique feature of independent L/R and multiple readout a per cycle. They are trying to sell in an increasingly competitive market.
If you claim technique can't be improved through an application of knowledge alone, that is a claim you need to support. What are the ways to change pedal technique, both conscious and unconscious. After that, you need to show that a different technique is better.
FrankDay said:
They are selling a power meter. It happens to have the somewhat unique feature of independent L/R and multiple readout a per cycle. They are trying to sell in an increasingly competitive market.
If you claim technique can't be improved through an application of knowledge alone, that is a claim you need to support. What are the ways to change pedal technique, both conscious and unconscious. After that, you need to show that a different technique is better.
Re: Re:
Yes, it is a competitive market. If one wants to succeed in a competitive market one hopes that they offer something better than the competition or a lower price. I think that is what Pioneer thinks they have since I am not aware of a single other power meter manufacturer that claims their product actually does anything for the athlete other than give them that power number. Pioneer is seemingly claiming that their product can actually "identify weaknesses" which, presumably, the cyclist through the use of this knowledge can eventually "destroy" these weaknesses to actually get better than if they only had the power number.
So this is how you see their product, simply a power meter with a "somewhat unique" feature of independent L/R and "multiple readout per cycle"? My guess is that Pioneer sees their product as being more than "somewhat unique" as they are the first and only commercial product give actual pedal force vectors around the pedal circle (at least that I am aware). This used to require expensive specialized pedals available only to university researchers and now it is available to everyone who thinks this information might be useful.JamesCun said:
Yes, it is a competitive market. If one wants to succeed in a competitive market one hopes that they offer something better than the competition or a lower price. I think that is what Pioneer thinks they have since I am not aware of a single other power meter manufacturer that claims their product actually does anything for the athlete other than give them that power number. Pioneer is seemingly claiming that their product can actually "identify weaknesses" which, presumably, the cyclist through the use of this knowledge can eventually "destroy" these weaknesses to actually get better than if they only had the power number.
Actually, for the purposes of this particular little discussion I don't have to show any of that stuff. It is simply my opinion that changing pedaling technique is essentially impossible for most people to change simply through knowledge alone. No one has ever shown that cyclists regularly succeed in changing technique even though they try (doing one legged drills or riding fixed gears, etc.). Greg LeMond told me, when he first saw the PowerCranks that it took him 6 years to learn how to pedal like this and with these people should be able to do it in months. And, in my PowerCranks experience I know that even with constant feedback it takes many months to make a substantial change. But, for the purposes of this particular discussion it is Pioneer that is making the claim that identifying pedaling weaknesses using their pm can lead to the cyclist "destroying" those weaknesses and, presumably, seeing subsequent improvement. I wonder what might cause them to think or say that? I actually agree. I just don't think it is quite as easy as they imply.
Frank, if you don't feel like justifying your opinion, don't. But why say that you don't need to and then proceed to attempt to justify with anecdotal 'evidence'?
You also continue to create a straw man and misrepresent what a power meter is. All any power meter does is give you a number or series of numbers. They are measurement tools. Using the numbers from that measurement tool can allow you to identify things, make an intervention and reasses.
You also continue to create a straw man and misrepresent what a power meter is. All any power meter does is give you a number or series of numbers. They are measurement tools. Using the numbers from that measurement tool can allow you to identify things, make an intervention and reasses.
Re:
My view is that since the Pioneer unit DOES give 'numbers' and data about power production and force application for both left and right cranks at multiple points around the crank rotation, we might learn HOW that information can be used to "make an intervention and reasses". Or to perhaps offer opinions about whether attempting to use that information can be helpful.
I did a brief review of the product data from Pioneer, and could not find any information about their views or suggestions about HOW the data could be used - except for vague marketing references to "identifying" and "destroying" (un-named) weaknesses.
As-is, the 'usefulness' of the Pioneer unit is left as an 'exercise for the buyer', without any help from Pioneer!
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
----JamesCun said:
My view is that since the Pioneer unit DOES give 'numbers' and data about power production and force application for both left and right cranks at multiple points around the crank rotation, we might learn HOW that information can be used to "make an intervention and reasses". Or to perhaps offer opinions about whether attempting to use that information can be helpful.
I did a brief review of the product data from Pioneer, and could not find any information about their views or suggestions about HOW the data could be used - except for vague marketing references to "identifying" and "destroying" (un-named) weaknesses.
As-is, the 'usefulness' of the Pioneer unit is left as an 'exercise for the buyer', without any help from Pioneer!
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Re: Re:
My guess is Pioneer, in their marketing, have decided that what the product does and how to use it is "obvious" to those who care about technique. If they make any claims beyond that they will find themselves in the PowerCranks boat with the naysayers saying "prove it" which, of course, they would not be able to do, especially since all Pioneer is doing is telling the rider what they are doing, not how to change things. It is what all the power meter manufacturers do, they make no claims regarding how the rider might expect to benefit because they don't have to, because cyclists believe.
James suggests all Pioneer is is a power meter. In the past, all a power meter did was give you a number as to what your power is now (or was if reviewing a ride). What one could do with that number was very limited and such info has never been shown to be beneficial, even though it might be. Now Pioneer is giving additional number to tell the user how the total output number is arrived at, in other words, It breaks the circle into segments and shows the forces at each segment. The idea being to let the user better know if there are any weaknesses (as defined by the user) in the pedaling circle that might be worked on to improve power. If there were 4 segments and two users were measured and user A knew that their output of 250 watts came from generating 500 watts on down stroke segment, 250 watts on the bottom segment, 200 watts on the upstroke segment, and 50 watts on top segment another user B saw 250 watts in each segment I think each would learn something about how to be go about if they wanted to gain another 10 watts. User A would probably be best served trying to improve over the top 40 watts to 90 watts instead of trying to push to 540 watts on the down stroke whereas user B would know the best way would probably be to try to increase to 260 watts in each segment. Or, they might make some other decision based upon what they believe to be most important but at least they would know what they were doing and they could make a rational decision as to where to focus their technique training if they believe technique important. If one only knows the result (the total power) as given by a traditional power meter and nothing else all they know for sure to do to get better is to work harder.JayKosta said:
My guess is Pioneer, in their marketing, have decided that what the product does and how to use it is "obvious" to those who care about technique. If they make any claims beyond that they will find themselves in the PowerCranks boat with the naysayers saying "prove it" which, of course, they would not be able to do, especially since all Pioneer is doing is telling the rider what they are doing, not how to change things. It is what all the power meter manufacturers do, they make no claims regarding how the rider might expect to benefit because they don't have to, because cyclists believe.
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