The pedaling technique thread

[CoachFergie]

Re:

There's a new study out which probably deserves it's own thread.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29406

Hugh

Priceless, shows how this whole thread is just beat up and a lead in to some serious spamming from one person and his ineffective product!

A Seinfeld thread. A thread about nothing at all!!!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

There's a new study out which probably deserves it's own thread.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29406

Hugh

Actually that study would do well here as it deals with pedaling technique. And, as I posted in that new thread you started, that study, I believe, actually supports my current view that a better balanced muscle use is more efficient.

and how might that be? The use of the counterweight forces a much less balanced use of leg flexors versus extensors and yet improved the athletes efficiency substantially. How do you reconcile that?
With counterweight the work done on the down stroke is increased while that done on the upstroke is decreased. It certainly sounds counter to your conception of the ideal use of muscles.

Hugh

Nope, when riding PowerCranks the opposite leg acts as the counterweight. PowerCranks is nothing more than counterweighted single legged pedaling both legs at the same time. Since that was the best outcome in this experiment it supports my theory. Your problem is you don't seem to have a clue what the PC's do or don't do but are shouting very loud here pretending you do.

How the F can there possibly be a counterweight action when using uncoupled cranks?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

There's a new study out which probably deserves it's own thread.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29406

Hugh

Actually that study would do well here as it deals with pedaling technique. And, as I posted in that new thread you started, that study, I believe, actually supports my current view that a better balanced muscle use is more efficient.

and how might that be? The use of the counterweight forces a much less balanced use of leg flexors versus extensors and yet improved the athletes efficiency substantially. How do you reconcile that?
With counterweight the work done on the down stroke is increased while that done on the upstroke is decreased. It certainly sounds counter to your conception of the ideal use of muscles.

Hugh

Nope, when riding PowerCranks the opposite leg acts as the counterweight. PowerCranks is nothing more than counterweighted single legged pedaling both legs at the same time. Since that was the best outcome in this experiment it supports my theory. Your problem is you don't seem to have a clue what the PC's do or don't do but are shouting very loud here pretending you do.

How the F can there possibly be a counterweight action when using uncoupled cranks?

There can't.

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

Actually that study would do well here as it deals with pedaling technique. And, as I posted in that new thread you started, that study, I believe, actually supports my current view that a better balanced muscle use is more efficient.

and how might that be? The use of the counterweight forces a much less balanced use of leg flexors versus extensors and yet improved the athletes efficiency substantially. How do you reconcile that?
With counterweight the work done on the down stroke is increased while that done on the upstroke is decreased. It certainly sounds counter to your conception of the ideal use of muscles.

Hugh

Nope, when riding PowerCranks the opposite leg acts as the counterweight. PowerCranks is nothing more than counterweighted single legged pedaling both legs at the same time. Since that was the best outcome in this experiment it supports my theory. Your problem is you don't seem to have a clue what the PC's do or don't do but are shouting very loud here pretending you do.

How the F can there possibly be a counterweight action when using uncoupled cranks?

There can't.

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

This is completely different to what you claimed, that uncoupled cranks can have a counterweight effect on each other. Do not shift the goalposts just to give an advertorial, back up your original claim and win a Nobel prize. How do uncoupled cranks interact to give a counterweight effect? Looking the same as coupled cranks is not the same thing.

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

So you're saying that the crank going down has a beneficial impact on the muscular effort required to lift the other crank up? In other words, the potential energy stored on one side can be transferred to the other side through an uncoupled crank.

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

So you're saying that the crank going down has a beneficial impact on the muscular effort required to lift the other crank up? In other words, the potential energy stored on one side can be transferred to the other side through an uncoupled crank.

I guess one could argue that but no, that is not what I am saying. If one is applying positive force coming up the crank going down has no particular effect on the other side if the momentum of the bike is large enough. Unfortunately, in this case, on an exercise bike the mass and speed of the flywheel is usually not enough to moderate pedal speed as much as when on the road. What is probably happening in this case is the rider, when riding single legged is applying excessive force on the upstroke to try to maintain an even pedal speed that he is used to on the road - the effect would probably be less if he were one a real bike riding down the road because the momentum is much greater keeping pedal speed more constant. When a counterweight is added this helps keep up the pedal speed on the upstroke so he can sense the extra force is not needed to maintain pedal speed which allows him to ease up a bit on the upstroke even though he is probably still applying force on the upstroke. Of course, the researchers neglected to measure pedal forces so no one actually knows what adaptions occurred to cause the effect they did measure. I would be surprised if this rider ever went negative on his pedal forces just because a counter weight approximately equal to the estimated weight of his leg was added to the other side. The effect the rider would feel would be the same whether the cranks are coupled or uncoupled as long as no negative force were ever applied to the pedals.

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

How do uncoupled cranks interact to give a counterweight effect?

Because the downward moving counter weight, be it a lead weight or the opposite thigh/leg reduce the effort of the upward moving leg to maintain pedal speed. A counter weight is a counter weight. Gravity doesn't care what it is made of. If they are of equal mass the effect should be the same.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

How do uncoupled cranks interact to give a counterweight effect?

Because the downward moving counter weight, be it a lead weight or the opposite thigh/leg reduce the effort of the upward moving leg to maintain pedal speed. A counter weight is a counter weight. Gravity doesn't care what it is made of. If they are of equal mass the effect should be the same.

They are unconnected, do yo need me to write that again? Unconnected. They cannot have an effect on each other because they are not in any way connected. Spin one pedal, does the other move? No. Hold one pedal in a fixed position and spin the other, if the counterweight argument would hold any water the pedal would not spin. They are not connected, I thought that was the whole point of them, that they are INDEPENDENT.

 

[CoachFergie]

Performance artist at his truly best, when supplied with incontrovertible evidence his marketing claims are wrong goes running round like a headless chook yelling "the emperor has no clothes"!

This is your finest work Frank!!!

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

There can and there is. You guys simply don't have a clue what you are talking about here (and a lot of other places). As long as their are no negative forces on the pedals the uncoupled cranks act and behave just like coupled cranks.

This is actually insane. You seriously believe that two things that are independent can suddenly become connected and influence each other? Are you going to claim quantum entanglement?

My friend, as long as there are no negatives anywhere around the stroke and the forces the same the rider cannot tell whether the cranks are coupled or not. It is not quantum entanglement (simple mechanics I am afraind) but is a Schroedinger's cat type situation. Edit: Similarly, if you are watching a PowerCranker ride down the road on PowerCranks using proper PowerCranks technique you cannot tell if the cranks are locked up or not until he goes to coast. When there are no negative forces on the pedals anywhere around the circle coupled and uncoupled cranks will look the same to an outside observer just as they will feel the same to the rider.

So you're saying that the crank going down has a beneficial impact on the muscular effort required to lift the other crank up? In other words, the potential energy stored on one side can be transferred to the other side through an uncoupled crank.

I guess one could argue that but no, that is not what I am saying. If one is applying positive force coming up the crank going down has no particular effect on the other side if the momentum of the bike is large enough. Unfortunately, in this case, on an exercise bike the mass and speed of the flywheel is usually not enough to moderate pedal speed as much as when on the road. What is probably happening in this case is the rider, when riding single legged is applying excessive force on the upstroke to try to maintain an even pedal speed that he is used to on the road - the effect would probably be less if he were one a real bike riding down the road because the momentum is much greater keeping pedal speed more constant. When a counterweight is added this helps keep up the pedal speed on the upstroke so he can sense the extra force is not needed to maintain pedal speed which allows him to ease up a bit on the upstroke even though he is probably still applying force on the upstroke. Of course, the researchers neglected to measure pedal forces so no one actually knows what adaptions occurred to cause the effect they did measure. I would be surprised if this rider ever went negative on his pedal forces just because a counter weight approximately equal to the estimated weight of his leg was added to the other side. The effect the rider would feel would be the same whether the cranks are coupled or uncoupled as long as no negative force were ever applied to the pedals.

This was a yes/no question. Does the energy used on the downstroke assist the upstroke of the other leg with uncoupled cranks?

 

[FrankDay]

You guys are really showing your ignorance of generally accepted engineering principles. If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float). Ask any well trained PowerCranker. Two legged pedaling with PowerCranks is a lot easier than single legged pedaling (what this study found) and no different that two legged pedaling on regular coupled cranks.

 

[sciguy]

Re:

If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float).

Well my dear wife is a mechanical engineer with a BS from Cornell and two additional masters. She contends you're completely off the deep end, lacking even the most basic understanding of mechanics. My BS is in biology from Cornell with an additional science Masters. Both have taught physics during our careers. So yeah we're a couple of bumpkins with no education or background



Hugh

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

You guys are really showing your ignorance of generally accepted engineering principles. If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float). Ask any well trained PowerCranker. Two legged pedaling with PowerCranks is a lot easier than single legged pedaling (what this study found) and no different that two legged pedaling on regular coupled cranks.

Still not answering the question Frank. How do two unconnected pedals affect each other? This can be demonstrated with a couple of weights and a 10 second video. We are not discussing two legged pedalling, single legged pedalling or in fact any pedalling on any crank system, we are discussing how two independent systems can have a counterweight effect on each other. Please explain.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float).

Well my dear wife is a mechanical engineer with a BS from Cornell and two additional masters. She contends you're completely off the deep end, lacking even the most basic understanding of mechanics. My BS is in biology from Cornell and both have taught physics during our careers. So yeah we're a couple of bumpkins with no education or background



Hugh

My brother has an MEng and an EngD and is currently laughing his ass off and asking why I'm bothering, I have a BSc, an MSc and PhD so obviously I'm completely uneducated too!

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

You guys are really showing your ignorance of generally accepted engineering principles. If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float). Ask any well trained PowerCranker. Two legged pedaling with PowerCranks is a lot easier than single legged pedaling (what this study found) and no different that two legged pedaling on regular coupled cranks.

Still not answering the question Frank. How do two unconnected pedals affect each other? This can be demonstrated with a couple of weights and a 10 second video. We are not discussing two legged pedalling, single legged pedalling or in fact any pedalling on any crank system, we are discussing how two independent systems can have a counterweight effect on each other. Please explain.

Let's put two engines in a car. one drives the front wheels and one drives the rear. They are not connected. Drive the car with one engine at 20 mph. How much power is it putting out? Now start the other engine and let it do some of the work, not all of it but some of it but keep the car at 20 mph. What happens to the power of the first engine? The principle is the same.

Edit: Or, put two engines in a car each connected to the drive shaft via one-way clutches. If both are putting out power they are reducing the effort of the other even though they are not connected. Again, same principle.

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float).

Well my dear wife is a mechanical engineer with a BS from Cornell and two additional masters. She contends you're completely off the deep end, lacking even the most basic understanding of mechanics. My BS is in biology from Cornell and both have taught physics during our careers. So yeah we're a couple of bumpkins with no education or background



Hugh

My brother has an MEng and an EngD and is currently laughing his ass off and asking why I'm bothering, I have a BSc, an MSc and PhD so obviously I'm completely uneducated too!

Then, your brother, doesn't understand the problem. My guess is because you are explaining it to him. Why doesn't he come here and correct me?

 

[JamesCun]

Re:

You guys are really showing your ignorance of generally accepted engineering principles. If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float). Ask any well trained PowerCranker. Two legged pedaling with PowerCranks is a lot easier than single legged pedaling (what this study found) and no different that two legged pedaling on regular coupled cranks.

Frank, this is a yes/no question. Does the energy used in the downstroke of one leg reduce the energy used in the upstroke of the opposite leg when using uncoupled cranks.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

...
They are unconnected, do yo need me to write that again? Unconnected. They cannot have an effect on each other because they are not in any way connected. Spin one pedal, does the other move? No. Hold one pedal in a fixed position and spin the other, if the counterweight argument would hold any water the pedal would not spin. They are not connected, I thought that was the whole point of them, that they are INDEPENDENT.

------------------
Ah ....., but they ARE connected when positive torque is applied to both crank arms at the same time.
And at that time the rotational speed of both crank arms is equal, even if the amount of positive torque is different (as long as there is positive torque on both cranks).

True, with PowerCranks the downstroke doesn't 'push UP' on the other crank, but it helps maintain the rotational speed of the BB spindle, so the 'pull UP' force on the upstroke only needs to maintain the rotational speed of the foot to match the spindle.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

...
They are unconnected, do yo need me to write that again? Unconnected. They cannot have an effect on each other because they are not in any way connected. Spin one pedal, does the other move? No. Hold one pedal in a fixed position and spin the other, if the counterweight argument would hold any water the pedal would not spin. They are not connected, I thought that was the whole point of them, that they are INDEPENDENT.

------------------
Ah ....., but they ARE connected when positive torque is applied to both crank arms at the same time.
And at that time the rotational speed of both crank arms is equal, even if the amount of positive torque is different (as long as there is positive torque on both cranks).

True, with PowerCranks the downstroke doesn't 'push UP' on the other crank, but it helps maintain the rotational speed of the BB spindle, so the 'pull UP' force on the upstroke only needs to maintain the rotational speed of the foot to match the spindle.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Thanks for the correction but this has no bearing in this situation, as you note, as a counterweight is a negative force.

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

You guys are really showing your ignorance of generally accepted engineering principles. If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float). Ask any well trained PowerCranker. Two legged pedaling with PowerCranks is a lot easier than single legged pedaling (what this study found) and no different that two legged pedaling on regular coupled cranks.

Frank, this is a yes/no question. Does the energy used in the downstroke of one leg reduce the energy used in the upstroke of the opposite leg when using uncoupled cranks.

It would if one crank was uncoupled and the other was a coupled counterweight or coupled crank. It doesn't if both are uncoupled. Your logical error here is in thinking that uncoupled cranks can help the other crank up whereas uncoupled cranks cannot. The problem with this approach is the energy that goes to push the other leg up robs from the energy that goes to drive the bicycle. Uncoupled cranks force forward driving pressure the complete circle so all the downward pressure goes to driving the bicycle.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Re:

Uncoupled cranks force forward driving pressure the complete circle so all the downward pressure goes to driving the bicycle.

Which is inefficient and metabolically costly. We knew this, but thanks to Jim Martin and his team we have some excellent data that shows it.

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

You guys are really showing your ignorance of generally accepted engineering principles. If you are in school take this problem to a mechanical engineering prof. If not, good luck. I suspect you also have trouble understanding how airplanes fly or iron ships float (even though it is easy to understand why wooden ships float). Ask any well trained PowerCranker. Two legged pedaling with PowerCranks is a lot easier than single legged pedaling (what this study found) and no different that two legged pedaling on regular coupled cranks.

Frank, this is a yes/no question. Does the energy used in the downstroke of one leg reduce the energy used in the upstroke of the opposite leg when using uncoupled cranks.

It would if one crank was uncoupled and the other was a coupled counterweight or coupled crank. It doesn't if both are uncoupled. Your logical error here is in thinking that uncoupled cranks can help the other crank up whereas uncoupled cranks cannot. The problem with this approach is the energy that goes to push the other leg up robs from the energy that goes to drive the bicycle. Uncoupled cranks force forward driving pressure the complete circle so all the downward pressure goes to driving the bicycle.

Please edit your post to be coherent...

Also please just answer the question. If I can decipher you horribly inconsistent word use, I believe you said NO, uncoupled cranks can not transfer energy from one leg to the other. Thanks, we all knew that already. Glad you could agree.