The pedaling technique thread

[JayKosta]

This article provides some good info about about various leg muscles and joints that are used during pedalling.

Joint-Specific Power Production during Submaximal and Maximal Cycling
STEVEN J. ELMER, PAUL R. BARRATT, THOMAS KORFF, and JAMES C. MARTIN
Official Journal of the American College of Sports Medicine
0195-9131/11/4310-1940/0
MEDICINE & SCIENCE IN SPORTS & EXERCISE

Copyright  2011 by the American College of Sports Medicine
DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e31821b00c5
http://www.acsm-msse.org

https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/download/4427/4117 shortened version of the article

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

backdoor"]JamesCun"

True, but that's the natural technique where the power generation of your most effective muscles ends at your knee and this restricts you to only a downward force Using the other technique (indoor T o'W) you are using a combination of power generating muscles from glutes to ball of foot where their objective is similar to that of the hydraulic system of the JCB as it drives that front bucket forward and down. And that was how Anquetil drove that smooth constant force from his rear end to the cranks.[/quote]


You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

[/quote]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs

What on earth is that relevant?

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs

What on earth is that relevant?

If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.

 

[CoachFergie]

So you mean for the last 15 or so years of your nonsense you haven't taken the time to try and teach this to a rider locally.

I guess happy with your delusions rather than test in the real world and find out you have wasted all your life.

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs

What on earth is that relevant?

If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.

How?? The glutes can't push the leg forward, it isn't physically possible on a bike.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs

What on earth is that relevant?

If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.

How?? The glutes can't push the leg forward, it isn't physically possible on a bike.

They don't have to, it's the combined effort of the glutes, quads and calf muscles that does it, the glutes supply the resistance that is necessary for this maximal forward force.

 

[CoachFergie]

Very funny Noel, I'm amazed that the Pro Tour are not knocking down your door to reap the benefits of your methods.

Or the men in white coats.

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs

What on earth is that relevant?

If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.

How?? The glutes can't push the leg forward, it isn't physically possible on a bike.

They don't have to, it's the combined effort of the glutes, quads and calf muscles that does it, the glutes supply the resistance that is necessary for this maximal forward force.

So we are back to kicking the lower leg forward. I don't think that is a very powerful or efficient motion. They also have to counteract the force of the glutes pushing the crank back, or 'adding resistance' as you put it.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Maybe this will make it clearer.

[url=http://www.ilovebicycling.com/why-is-core-strength-important-for-cyclists/]http://www.ilovebicycling.com/why-is-core-strength-important-for-cyclists/

In natural pedaling * A strong core is the platform that you push from", but this puts the lower back under continuous stress and is one of the root causes of lower back pain when riding your bike, the other cause is having to support all of the upper body weight. By changing your application of peak torque by 45 deg. from 3 o'c to 1.30 o'c, your glutes become the platform you push from, eliminating that stress from the lower back, while alternate use of the arms support all upper body weight, leaving a stress and pain free lower back even when turning your highest gear.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Maybe this will make it clearer.

[url=http://www.ilovebicycling.com/why-is-core-strength-important-for-cyclists/]http://www.ilovebicycling.com/why-is-core-strength-important-for-cyclists/

In natural pedaling * A strong core is the platform that you push from", but this puts the lower back under continuous stress and is one of the root causes of lower back pain when riding your bike, the other cause is having to support all of the upper body weight. By changing your application of peak torque by 45 deg. from 3 o'c to 1.30 o'c, your glutes become the platform you push from, eliminating that stress from the lower back, while alternate use of the arms support all upper body weight, leaving a stress and pain free lower back even when turning your highest gear.

Data please. This is all very measurable, so you could easily teach someone this and measure before and after power to show any improvement.

 

[PhitBoy]

Re: Re:

My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim

Data please. This is all very measurable, so you could easily teach someone this and measure before and after power to show any improvement.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim

Maybe you don't like being reminded that after over 500 pedalling studies by scientists, cycling's two major problems are still in existence today.

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/how-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-while-cycling

This type of advice from the experts that appears each year in magazines is of no benefit to those who suffer from chronic lower back pain when riding their bikes. I know because I was one of those who had to endure the torture.

 

[veganrob]

..and you still haven't shown us your miraculous technique.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

more belief-based nonsense

Back pain is not unique to cycling

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Re:

My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim

Maybe you don't like being reminded that after over 500 pedalling studies by scientists, cycling's two major problems are still in existence today.

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/how-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-while-cycling

This type of advice from the experts that appears each year in magazines is of no benefit to those who suffer from chronic lower back pain when riding their bikes. I know because I was one of those who had to endure the torture.

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.

Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

more belief-based nonsense

Back pain is not unique to cycling

Competitive aero skating is another sport where lower back stress could have the same effect but I don't see any way that stress could be eliminated.

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.

Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?

How does perfect technique eliminate lower back stress (not sure what you mean by lower back stress)?

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.

Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?

Your technique, you need to show that it removes back pain.

Right now it sounds like snake oil:
* everyone has problem X
* it's always caused by Y
* and Z fixes it
* therefore Z fixes all problems everywhere
* trust me, you can't prove me wrong

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim

Maybe you don't like being reminded that after over 500 pedalling studies by scientists, cycling's two major problems are still in existence today.

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/how-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-while-cycling

This type of advice from the experts that appears each year in magazines is of no benefit to those who suffer from chronic lower back pain when riding their bikes. I know because I was one of those who had to endure the torture.

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.

Below is an answer given to a cyclist who asked how much of his weight should be on his bars when pedaling. Would you agree with that answer ?


"Off the bike, stand up, knees slightly bent, one foot slightly ahead like your cranks are at 3 and 9, and bend over forward 90 degrees, arms out like you're on the saddle. Now stay there.
You should feel your weight being carried by your core/abs. That's what it should feel like on the bike, go out in a parking lot and practice. Ride around without gripping around the bar, using only your fingertips. Heavy feet, light hands. Try to carry the weight in a split between the saddle and legs."

 

[veganrob]

So you are happy to believe whatever some nameless face says on the internet with no credentials that we know of yet dispute eveything the many scientists and coaches on this thread say, who do it every day. ok

 

[PhitBoy]

Re: Re:

"Off the bike, stand up, knees slightly bent, one foot slightly ahead like your cranks are at 3 and 9, and bend over forward 90 degrees, arms out like you're on the saddle. Now stay there.
You should feel your weight being carried by your core/abs. That's what it should feel like on the bike, go out in a parking lot and practice. Ride around without gripping around the bar, using only your fingertips. Heavy feet, light hands. Try to carry the weight in a split between the saddle and legs."

We've done that study! Only reported as a conference poster and need to write up the full manuscript. Reducing the weight on the hands increases the relative contribution of power from hip extension and reduces the contribution from knee extension. Its not in the abstract but when we told subjects to lean heavily on the bars, the contribution from knee extension went up. In other words, the more weight on your hands, the more you're using your quads.

 

[JayKosta]

From the Fig 1 photo, it appears the cyclist achieved the 'instructed position' by sitting more forward on the saddle and has his body 'center of mass' changed from being behind the bottom bracket spindle, to being over the spindle.
Do you recall if the other participants did the same position change?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.

Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?

How does perfect technique eliminate lower back stress (not sure what you mean by lower back stress)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFvn7mp2NVk

In this video the shoulder muscles are being stressed by having to hold the weight in that position, the longer you hold it the effect builds up until you can no longer hold it. When cycling the lower back area muscles have to keep the upper body weight in position and even though the leverage is a lot less and perfect lower backs can cope with this stress, for those with defective lower backs the result will be lower back pain. Using my technique
the alternate working arms which together with the glutes are supplying pedalling resistance for peak torque around 1.30 o'c, also support all the upper body weight, leaving the lower back stress free. While one arm is supplying the resistance the other is supporting the upper body weight, which means there is no negative effect on the hands. This technique can only be used with the 'Scott Rake' clip on aero bars.