The pedaling technique thread

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Apr 21, 2009
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More repetition of nonsense. If it was better it would be easily measureable. Jim Martin has just had a paper accepted that may shed more light on this matter.

Scott Rake bars were legal for 5min.
 
Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay
 
Jun 4, 2015
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JayKosta said:
Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay
You are correct, it was (on the bike only) severe lower back pain that would begin only a mile after starting. By changing application of peak torque from 3+ o'c to about 1.30, all lower back stress was completely removed as was the lower back pain. Like circular, ankling and mashing this technique can be developed and perfected by anyone. By spreading the workload over three of the hip/leg's most powerful muscles instead of two and applying maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs are idling, it should be obvious that you would have to improve performance in flat time trials where constant high gear pedalling can be used. Don't forget that third muscle in action around 11, 12 and 1 o'c is more powerful and highly fatigue resistant with higher slow twitch muscle fiber content than the glute or quad muscles.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay
You are correct, it was (on the bike only) severe lower back pain that would begin only a mile after starting. By changing application of peak torque from 3+ o'c to about 1.30, all lower back stress was completely removed as was the lower back pain. Like circular, ankling and mashing this technique can be developed and perfected by anyone. By spreading the workload over three of the hip/leg's most powerful muscles instead of two and applying maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs are idling, it should be obvious that you would have to improve performance in flat time trials where constant high gear pedalling can be used. Don't forget that third muscle in action around 11, 12 and 1 o'c is more powerful and highly fatigue resistant with higher slow twitch muscle fiber content than the glute or quad muscles.
Data, or this is just your lame imagination.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay
You are correct, it was (on the bike only) severe lower back pain that would begin only a mile after starting. By changing application of peak torque from 3+ o'c to about 1.30, all lower back stress was completely removed as was the lower back pain. Like circular, ankling and mashing this technique can be developed and perfected by anyone. By spreading the workload over three of the hip/leg's most powerful muscles instead of two and applying maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs are idling, it should be obvious that you would have to improve performance in flat time trials where constant high gear pedalling can be used. Don't forget that third muscle in action around 11, 12 and 1 o'c is more powerful and highly fatigue resistant with higher slow twitch muscle fiber content than the glute or quad muscles.
Data, or this is just your lame imagination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
This man''s non climbing tt results. You have not said what was wrong with my google searches.
 
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backdoor said:
... The soleus muscle in the lower leg is not only more powerful than the glute or quad muscles but it is also highly fatigue resistant and ideal for the endurance required for constant high gear power output in TT's, it has about 20 % more slow twitch muscle fibre content than the glutes or quads. ...
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Noel, I'm guessing that CoachFergie does not agree with your evaluation of the soleus muscle's potential benefit in pedalling. From a very brief reading about the soleus, it seems to be mostly involved with 'pushing the ball of the foot forward/downward'. And while it may be very strong (high static force) and have high endurance, the actual 'distance of motion' is fairly short. And to produce POWER for cycling, force needs to be applied over a considerable portion of the crank rotation.

Yes, if additional power could be generated by aggressive use of the soleus in the TDC sector WITH NO LESSENING OF OTHER MUSCLE EFFECTIVENESS, then there might be value. Many people have tried variations of 'ankling', and yet the 'standard pedalling technique' has not been replaced. You can do your own search about 'ankling pedal' - I think this might be a good starting point - http://www.roberts-1.com/b/pt/ankling/discuss/

Jay
 
Jun 4, 2015
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JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
... The soleus muscle in the lower leg is not only more powerful than the glute or quad muscles but it is also highly fatigue resistant and ideal for the endurance required for constant high gear power output in TT's, it has about 20 % more slow twitch muscle fibre content than the glutes or quads. ...
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From a very brief reading about the soleus, it seems to be mostly involved with 'pushing the ball of the foot forward/downward'. And while it may be very strong (high static force) and have high endurance, the actual 'distance of motion' is fairly short. And to produce POWER for cycling, force needs to be applied over a considerable portion of the crank rotation.
Jay
When using this technique you are using an earlier and very different forceful type of knee extension made possible by the soleus, quads and glutes. With all three powerful muscles working in unison and with a strong forward force coming from the hip this different type of knee extension drives this maximal fully tangential force forward past TDC and bends it down around 1 o'c to merge with the natural downward force at 2 o'c. When perfected this is one extenced power stroke from 11-5 o'c, which means only one signal from brain to muscles is necessary at simultaneous changeover of leg power application. Powercrank, circular and ankling are a failure because you are trying to join the separate independent actions of three of the leg's weakest muscles with the strongest muscles used in the downstroke, all of which results in a weaker downstroke and overall loss of power because the brain is trying to send two different power generating signals at the same time four times around the pedalling circle and it delays the start of your downstroke.
 
What do you think is needed to convince cyclists to train and become proficient in your technique? How long of a time commitment do you think is required, and how will the person's cycling performance be affected during training?

If a reasonable training program can be developed, why do you think people have not embrassed the technique?

Jay
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
When using this technique you are using an earlier and very different forceful type of knee extension made possible by the soleus, quads and glutes. With all three powerful muscles working in unison and with a strong forward force coming from the hip this different type of knee extension drives this maximal fully tangential force forward past TDC and bends it down around 1 o'c to merge with the natural downward force at 2 o'c. When perfected this is one extenced power stroke from 11-5 o'c, which means only one signal from brain to muscles is necessary at simultaneous changeover of leg power application. Powercrank, circular and ankling are a failure because you are trying to join the separate independent actions of three of the leg's weakest muscles with the strongest muscles used in the downstroke, all of which results in a weaker downstroke and overall loss of power because the brain is trying to send two different power generating signals at the same time four times around the pedalling circle and it delays the start of your downstroke.
Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense. You have never provided any data of your method not have you given a valid example of having taught anyone with any success. Do you even ride a bicycle Noel? It's very easy to disprove your theory. We pedal the way we are constrained to. Any attempt to change this requires more effort and this reduces efficiency. Pretty basic physiology, anatomy and neuroscience.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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PhitBoy said:
CoachFergie said:
Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense.
Hamish, Hamish, Hamish... you don't get it. Noel is a troll. His goal is to waste people's time. Its his life's passion.

My only objective was to discover the source of Anquetil's mysterious extra power in time trials and that I succeeded in doing while discovering how to eliminate the root cause of cycling's worst lower back pain in the process.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
When using this technique you are using an earlier and very different forceful type of knee extension made possible by the soleus, quads and glutes. With all three powerful muscles working in unison and with a strong forward force coming from the hip this different type of knee extension drives this maximal fully tangential force forward past TDC and bends it down around 1 o'c to merge with the natural downward force at 2 o'c. When perfected this is one extenced power stroke from 11-5 o'c, which means only one signal from brain to muscles is necessary at simultaneous changeover of leg power application. Powercrank, circular and ankling are a failure because you are trying to join the separate independent actions of three of the leg's weakest muscles with the strongest muscles used in the downstroke, all of which results in a weaker downstroke and overall loss of power because the brain is trying to send two different power generating signals at the same time four times around the pedalling circle and it delays the start of your downstroke.
Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense. You have never provided any data of your method not have you given a valid example of having taught anyone with any success. Do you even ride a bicycle Noel? It's very easy to disprove your theory. We pedal the way we are constrained to. Any attempt to change this requires more effort and this reduces efficiency. Pretty basic physiology, anatomy and neuroscience.
You are not attempting to change your pedalling style, you are adding an additional more effective technique for use in flat individual time trials. Mashing and circular are still best for road racing because of the stop/start type of power application and the sprinting. Attempts to change pedalling failed because all they could do was try to apply torque around 360 deg. by adding some of the leg's weakest muscles to the technique, it can only be done by concentrating on 180 deg. and including the leg's unused most powerful and most fatigue resistant muscle in the torque application. Your pedalling is constrained because of your lack of knowledge on the subject, the way you learned to pedal as a child without cleats/toe clips is so ingrained in your brain you are incapable of thinking otherwise. How can you disprove my theory ? Go to an indoor tug o'war training session and you will soon discover what is meant by a forceful forward knee extension that can be adapted for use around TDC.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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PhitBoy said:
CoachFergie said:
Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense.
Hamish, Hamish, Hamish... you don't get it. Noel is a troll. His goal is to waste people's time. Its his life's passion.

How long will it take pedalling researchers to realize they are leaving the most powerful and most fatigue resistant muscle in the lower body lying idle when it could be applying maximal torque around TDC and 1 o'c ?
 
Jun 18, 2015
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Please allow me to interpret what you've been saying for the last several years:
"I am an elderly recreational cyclist. I had musculo-skeletal issues that gave me excruciating back pain when cycling. When watching a video of a pro cyclist from long ago, I came up with an idea for a pedaling technique. When I tried this technique, it relieved my back pain. I can now cycle comfortably. (We're all happy for you!)
While I have no performance data, and have refused several offers to have my technique analyzed, I believe it is a more powerful and/or efficient alternative to typical pedaling technique employed by almost all cyclists. Indeed, I have concocted elaborate explanations of how and why it works even though I have no training in exercise physiology or biomechanics. "
Does that sum it up nicely? Or, as I suggested earlier, are you really just trolling for attention and reactions?
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backdoor said:
My only objective was to discover the source of Anquetil's mysterious extra power in time trials and that I succeeded in doing while discovering how to eliminate the root cause of cycling's worst lower back pain in the process.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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PhitBoy said:
Please allow me to interpret what you've been saying for the last several years:
"I am an elderly recreational cyclist. I had musculo-skeletal issues that gave me excruciating back pain when cycling. When watching a video of a pro cyclist from long ago, I came up with an idea for a pedaling technique. When I tried this technique, it relieved my back pain. I can now cycle comfortably. (We're all happy for you!)
While I have no performance data, and have refused several offers to have my technique analyzed, I believe it is a more powerful and/or efficient alternative to typical pedaling technique employed by almost all cyclists. Indeed, I have concocted elaborate explanations of how and why it works even though I have no training in exercise physiology or biomechanics. "
Does that sum it up nicely? Or, as I suggested earlier, are you really just trolling for attention and reactions?
.
backdoor said:
My only objective was to discover the source of Anquetil's mysterious extra power in time trials and that I succeeded in doing while discovering how to eliminate the root cause of cycling's worst lower back pain in the process.
Anquetil had no training in exercise physiology or biomechanics, all he needed was an innovative mind and common sense to discover how to apply the greatest possible tangential force to his crank during its rotation.
I discovered this technique long before Anquetil's video became available in 2001.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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PhitBoy said:
Ah, so I was right the first time. Troll on Noel, troll on.

backdoor said:
greatest possible tangential force to his crank during its rotation.

Right about what ? When his technique was perfected, during each crank's rotation he gave total concentration to 180 deg. of maximal force application, which with both cranks gave 360 deg. of highly effective crank torque with no dead spot sector, eliminating the need for those nonsensical non round chainrings. Perfecting involved attempting to start each power stroke earlier and earlier until a simultaneous changeover of power application was reached.
" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him " . That's understandable, using his technique you need a clear road ahead. As I asked CF, where am I wrong ?
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Wrong because you have no proof. Jacques had the right combination of VO2max, Fractionalisation of VO2max and Efficiency. The rest is all conjecture.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
Wrong because you have no proof. Jacques had the right combination of VO2max, Fractionalisation of VO2max and Efficiency. The rest is all conjecture.

You keep on referring to Anquetil's superior VO2 max, what was it ? His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8. Compared to natural pedalling, his increased efficiency came from the greater torque return he got from the force he applied. So without proof you do not believe having the ability to make maximal use of the most powerful muscle in the leg/hip (where all other riders' legs are idling) with about 20% more slow twitch fiber content than the glutes or quads will improve performance in a flat TT.
The advantages of this semi circular technique do not end there, the application of maximal torque at TDC results in a lower thigh effect, this gives a rider an ideal comfortable aerodynamic TT position, eliminating the need for shorter cranks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Wrong because you have no proof. Jacques had the right combination of VO2max, Fractionalisation of VO2max and Efficiency. The rest is all conjecture.

You keep on referring to Anquetil's superior VO2 max, what was it ? His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8. Compared to natural pedalling, his increased efficiency came from the greater torque return he got from the force he applied. So without proof you do not believe having the ability to make maximal use of the most powerful muscle in the leg/hip (where all other riders' legs are idling) with about 20% more slow twitch fiber content than the glutes or quads will improve performance in a flat TT.
The advantages of this semi circular technique do not end there, the application of maximal torque at TDC results in a lower thigh effect, this gives a rider an ideal comfortable aerodynamic TT position, eliminating the need for shorter cranks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
More conjecture. And a basic misunderstanding of exercise physiology to go with your misunderstanding of biomechanics and human anatomy.
 
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backdoor said:
His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8.
Having bigger lungs when you are a bigger human being is hardly a surprise.

That said, lung capacity is not a determining nor a limiting factor for the sustainable power elite riders are capable of. Other factors in the O2/CO2 delivery/exchange chain are far more important.

Indeed this 1983 study found no significant difference in lung capacity between elite cyclists and sedentary individuals despite the large difference in VO2max:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6656560
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8.
Having bigger lungs when you are a bigger human being is hardly a surprise.

That said, lung capacity is not a determining nor a limiting factor for the sustainable power elite riders are capable of. Other factors in the O2/CO2 delivery/exchange chain are far more important.

Indeed this 1983 study found no significant difference in lung capacity between elite cyclists and sedentary individuals despite the large difference in VO2max:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6656560
That's why I was asking for his VO2 MAX value. It has been said he had a larger heart than other riders. His method of training for TT's could be copied but not his pedalling technique.

What makes a great Tour rider?
By Jane Elliott
BBC News, health reporter


This weekend sees the start of the biggest annual sporting event in the world - the Tour de France - and for the very first time it will be starting in London.

But what makes these cyclists stand out from the man in the street - is it their years of dedicated training?

Or are famous riders, like Miguel Indurain, Lance Armstrong, Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and Jacques Anquetil, born with the genes that will give them the extraordinary physique required to be a top level cyclist?

Jonathan Folland, lecturer in exercise physiology at the school of sport and exercise sciences at Loughborough University, believes cycling greats do have to thank their parents for a good set of genes - but cannot rely on nature's largesse alone.

Fantastic lung capacity

"These cyclists are phenomenal endurance athletes with remarkable physical abilities," he said.

"I believe the physiology is half-innate and half-created."


These cyclists have the ability to turn oxygen into peak energy. Miguel Indurain was phenomenal at this
Jonathan Folland
One of the major attributes needed for a successful Tour de France cyclist is a fantastic lung capacity.

Spaniard Miguel Indurain, who took five successive titles, had lungs so big they displaced his stomach, leading to his trademark paunch.

Indurain's lung capacity was eight litres, compared to an average of six litres.

Doctors also assess lung performance using a measure called Vo2 max - the highest volume of oxygen a person can consume during exercise.

In this too Indurain was exceptional - his Vo2 max levels were 88 ml/kg/min - almost double that of an untrained man or woman.

Three time winner Greg Le Mond was thought to have had a Vo2 max of 92.5 at the height of his career - one of the highest ever recorded.

And Lance Armstrong, the American who won the race seven times, had a Vo2 max of 83 ml/kg/min.

Dr Folland explained: "A Vo2 max of anything over 70 is considered elite.

"These cyclists have the ability to turn oxygen into peak energy. Miguel Indurain was phenomenal at this."

Dr Keith Prowse, chairman of the British Lung Foundation agreed that these cyclists had respiratory systems that set them apart from ordinary mortals.

"The bigger the lung capacity the better it performs, although lung capacity can vary depending on height and gender.

"Generally the taller a person is the greater their lung capacity."

Strong hearts

Dr Prowse said great cyclists usually reached their career peak between 23-35 when their body is mature enough to cope with the endurance demands a race like this placed on them.

Dr Folland said cyclists also needed strong hearts.

Lance Armstrong's heart, like that of many other athletes, is thought to be 30% larger than average.

Lance Armstrong cycling
Lance Armstrong won seven Tours
He had a resting heart rate of 32-34 beats per minute (the average for males is 70 and 75 for women) - a trained athlete's resting heart rate is lower because it pumps more blood per beat than an untrained person's does.

It is also thought that Armstrong's muscles produced lower levels of lactic acid during exercise.

This is a by-product of the body's energy production, and it is thought that the faster it can be cleared from the system, the less fatigue will kick in, and the faster the body can recover.

Muscle composition

Another useful attribute for an elite endurance cyclist is a good composition of muscles - a larger proportion of their muscles are made up of what is called 'slow twitch' muscle fibres.

These contract slowly, but keep going for a long time - 'fast twitch' muscle fibres contract quickly, but rapidly get tired.

This makes 'slow twitch' muscle fibres ideal for endurance sports where the ability to keep at it for hour after hour is vital.

"Another way they are phenomenal is the way in which their bodies can metabolise fat (to release energy)," said Dr Folland.

"They also have a very good immune system, which prevents their bodies becoming ill despite the rigours of training."

Training important

But he said that although many of their attributes are innate, that intensive training, involving endurance work as well as repetitions, helps to hone their physique.

"They will be training for anything up to four or five hours a day.

"It is easy to see what makes the top cyclists different from the man in the street, what is more difficult is to see what makes these cyclists different from those other elite cyclists. It is such a mixture of things." he said."
 
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backdoor said:
That's why I was asking for his VO2 MAX value. It has been said he had a larger heart than other riders. His method of training for TT's could be copied but not his pedalling technique.
You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson when introducing the Stig, except it's Noel introducing Anquteil.

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