The pedaling technique thread

[PhitBoy]

Re: Re:

It's not possible to turn around the beliefs of the self deluded.

This reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from Lonesome Dove: Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

It's not possible to turn around the beliefs of the self deluded.

This reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from Lonesome Dove: Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

As A. Coggan wrote on the ST forum, "The real question is therefore not whether data are accurate and precise, but what can you do with it."
Maybe you could explain why adding hand cranks to a bike will never improve performance.
http://road.cc/content/news/87308-dutch-inventor-announces-dual-drive-bike-powered-hand-crank-pedals

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[quote="backdoor

Maybe you could explain why adding hand cranks to a bike will never improve performance.

http://road.cc/content/news/87308-dutch-inventor-announces-dual-drive-bike-powered-hand-crank-pedals[/quote]

For exactly the same reason that pulling up with your rising leg will not add to your pedalling power. Instead of "neural juice" I would put 'concentration on the interaction between brain and muscles'. The assistance of the arm can only add to leg power output if it is used in a combined action with the leg which can be given total concentration (e.g. out of the saddle accelerating from a standing start). Anquetil replicated this combined action while in a seated position by inventing a maximal forward torque generating technique for use around 12 and 1 o'c.
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/why-pulling-up-doesnt-add-to-your-pedal-stroke-powe

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

I did try measuring the chainring on my bike, but results were inconclusive. The 3/8inch bit wouldn't fit in any of the valleys, and the 23/64 fit in all - but it seems like some were 'looser' than others. This was done on the large chainring, I changed the inner ring several years ago and do not recall if I changed the orientation of the outer ring at that time ???

I also inspected the old inner ring and it is also difficult to measure. But there seems to be a noticeable visual difference in the 'shark tooth' wear pattern around the ring - And I don't know what the orientation of that ring was on the crank.

Perhaps with an 'inspection magnifier' and a measuring grid, a more exact determination of the wear could be established. I am confident that the teeth around the ring do NOT wear evenly, so the amount of wear could be a meaningful indicator of what sections of the ring contribute most to the crank torque.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Also note that on a 10 tooth ring, 5 teeth are always engaged. On a 50 tooth ring, 25. You cannot wear just one tooth.

Looks like only one tooth on the large ring will be transferring all the force from the crank, which means an extended smoother application of maximal tangential force could reduce wear on these teeth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM&feature=youtu.be

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM&feature=youtu.be

-------------
The Ceramic Speed 'variable pinion' drive train that you mentioned is quite interesting. But I think the major trouble spot is dirt contamination of the exposed rolled bearings. This is basically a 'mechanical engineering' problem regarding how bearings work in adverse environments.

In addition to watching that specific youtube, I also watched several others that discussed oval chainrings.

Regarding your (Noel / Backdoor) theory about applying high torque during the 11-1 o'clock portion of crank rotation, It occured to me that an OVAL chainring that was oriented so that the high-tooth portion occured DURING that 11-1 o'clock position would FORCE the rider to exert MORE effort in that sector in order to maintain what seemed to be a constant crank rotation speed - and that would do 2 things.
1) It would TRAIN the muscles to produce enough power/pedal speed to keep the cadence 'steady' during the deadspots. (and this is what I understand as the basis of your technique). And the 'training' might force the rider to apply power to the pedals as your theory suggstest.
2) By keeping the instantaneous speed more 'steady' it MIGHT be more effective (physiological efficiency is not known) than the SMALL cyclical changes in power application that occur during the 'deadspots' at 12 & 6 o'clock.
note: the amount of 'ovalness' would probably need to be quite small to avoid the need for excessive pedal effort variation during the deadspots.

Current theory about OVAL chainrings seems to be about reducing the TIME spend in the deadspot, and not about having smooth instanteous power producution DURING the deadspots.

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM&feature=youtu.be

-------------
The Ceramic Speed 'variable pinion' drive train that you mentioned is quite interesting. But I think the major trouble spot is dirt contamination of the exposed rolled bearings. This is basically a 'mechanical engineering' problem regarding how bearings work in adverse environments.

In addition to watching that specific youtube, I also watched several others that discussed oval chainrings.

Regarding your (Noel / Backdoor) theory about applying high torque during the 11-1 o'clock portion of crank rotation, It occured to me that an OVAL chainring that was oriented so that the high-tooth portion occured DURING that 11-1 o'clock position would FORCE the rider to exert MORE effort in that sector in order to maintain what seemed to be a constant crank rotation speed - and that would do 2 things.
1) It would TRAIN the muscles to produce enough power/pedal speed to keep the cadence 'steady' during the deadspots. (and this is what I understand as the basis of your technique). And the 'training' might force the rider to apply power to the pedals as your theory suggstest.
2) By keeping the instantaneous speed more 'steady' it MIGHT be more effective (physiological efficiency is not known) than the SMALL cyclical changes in power application that occur during the 'deadspots' at 12 & 6 o'clock.
note: the amount of 'ovalness' would probably need to be quite small to avoid the need for excessive pedal effort variation during the deadspots.

Current theory about OVAL chainrings seems to be about reducing the TIME spend in the deadspot, and not about having smooth instanteous power producution DURING the deadspots.

Jay

The oval rings change gearing effect or crank speed 4 times around pedalling circle, giving highest gear effect between 2-4, but as Leong said, if you are not prepared to increase crank speed here by applying more power where you are already applying close to maximal power, you will gain nothing, you can do that with round rings. Anquetil's pedalling also increases gearing effect but does it in such a way that you increase total power from each power stroke without having to change crank speed or power application because it does it by applying maximal tangential force where all other cyclists' legs are effectively idling or applying force less tangentially. The ROTOR CRANK idea which changes crank speed only twice around the circle and brings the upper crank forward before TDC would make for an easier simultaneous switch over of maximal force application between legs but this advantage would be more than eliminated by its disadvantages.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM&feature=youtu.be

-------------

Regarding your (Noel / Backdoor) theory about applying high torque during the 11-1 o'clock portion of crank rotation, It occured to me that an OVAL chainring that was oriented so that the high-tooth portion occured DURING that 11-1 o'clock position would FORCE the rider to exert MORE effort in that sector in order to maintain what seemed to be a constant crank rotation speed - and that would do 2 things.

Jay

Unlike POWERCRANKS oval chainrings will not force you to do anything, that's why they do not improve performance. It's only the objectives you give to your brain that can make changes. Using the oval ring higher gearing effect around TDC would only upset the constant pedal/crank speed and smooth application of maximal force through the 180 deg. power stroke. As I said above, Anquetil's pedalling increases gearing effect, any further increase would probably overdo it.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

Hi Jay:
We maximized the power that every muscle produced throughout the pedal cycle and came up with patterns that look almost identical to what cyclists do. That means there is nothing else the muscles can do to produce power in some other technique. Any other technique will be less powerful, not more. The differences we saw at the ankle occur during the middle of the recovery portion of the cycle where an active ankle extension would be counter productive. That is, even though soleus could produce more power during that portion of the cycle, doing so would produce negative power on the crank.
I hope this clarifies.
Cheers,
Jim

Maybe Alex could explain what effect his prosthesis has when he is walking. I have a reason for asking this question which will be explained in my next reply.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

Hi Jay:
We maximized the power that every muscle produced throughout the pedal cycle and came up with patterns that look almost identical to what cyclists do. That means there is nothing else the muscles can do to produce power in some other technique. Any other technique will be less powerful, not more. The differences we saw at the ankle occur during the middle of the recovery portion of the cycle where an active ankle extension would be counter productive. That is, even though soleus could produce more power during that portion of the cycle, doing so would produce negative power on the crank.
I hope this clarifies.
Cheers,
Jim

Maybe Alex could explain what effect his prosthesis has when he is walking. I have a reason for asking this question which will be explained in my next reply.

My reason for asking was to know which was the most effective muscle used in walking that was lost. I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay

It is identical to the way these competitors are using their glutes and quads. Of course you will be using a different body position on the bike but for maximal torque at TDC you will only need a fraction of the force their muscles are producing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ6gsaTmlWc

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay

Here is a question and answer from another forum,

====================================================================================================
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm
by TheKaiser on Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:48 am

TheDarkInstall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:43 am
Anyone got any technical info or links on how the muscles in the leg, and more specifically the foot, operate during pedalling?

I am also looking for insight into how the nerves in the feet are possibly affected during the pedal stroke. I realise this is a big question...

Cheers for anything you can share regarding this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you said, it's a very big question.

I'm guessing you have already seen graphics like this one, that display which muscles of the leg are recruited during each phase of the pedal stroke: https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-primary-muscles-used-for-cycling-and-how-to-train-them/

As you will observe, that graphic does not even acknowledge that the foot is playing a role, and the discussion is limited almost entirely to the leg and glute/hip flexor.

Most people seem to view the foot as simply acting as a lever, transmitting the force of the leg muscles (primarily the upper leg muscles) to the pedal. The whole idea behind midfoot cleat positioning stems from the idea that even the calf, while recruited during pedaling, is not contributing significantly to the generation of power, at least unless you are sprinting, when "ankling" comes more into play: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2 ... ition.html This is in contrast to running when a stretch/rebound of the achilles and plantar fascia, and "toe spring" are a key part of one's forward propulsion.

To put it another way, those views suggest that recruitment of the foot, and even the calf, should be minimized while cycling
==================================================================================================

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay

Here is a question and answer from another forum,

====================================================================================================
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm
by TheKaiser on Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:48 am

TheDarkInstall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:43 am
Anyone got any technical info or links on how the muscles in the leg, and more specifically the foot, operate during pedalling?

I am also looking for insight into how the nerves in the feet are possibly affected during the pedal stroke. I realise this is a big question...

Cheers for anything you can share regarding this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you said, it's a very big question.

I'm guessing you have already seen graphics like this one, that display which muscles of the leg are recruited during each phase of the pedal stroke: https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-primary-muscles-used-for-cycling-and-how-to-train-them/

As you will observe, that graphic does not even acknowledge that the foot is playing a role, and the discussion is limited almost entirely to the leg and glute/hip flexor.

Most people seem to view the foot as simply acting as a lever, transmitting the force of the leg muscles (primarily the upper leg muscles) to the pedal. The whole idea behind midfoot cleat positioning stems from the idea that even the calf, while recruited during pedaling, is not contributing significantly to the generation of power, at least unless you are sprinting, when "ankling" comes more into play: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2 ... ition.html This is in contrast to running when a stretch/rebound of the achilles and plantar fascia, and "toe spring" are a key part of one's forward propulsion.

To put it another way, those views suggest that recruitment of the foot, and even the calf, should be minimized while cycling
==================================================================================================

It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

... It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

-----------------------------------------------------------
It would be helpful if you described these factors for each 30 degree segment of crank rotation -

1) Direction that force is being applied to the pedal

2) Amount of muscle exertion/activation that is attempted to be applied to produce force, e.g. very high, high, moderate, light, very light

3) position of the heel of the foot, e.g raised, neutral, lowered. And whether (and how) the position for the foot is being changed during the segment

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

... It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

-----------------------------------------------------------
It would be helpful if you described these factors for each 30 degree segment of crank rotation -

1) Direction that force is being applied to the pedal

2) Amount of muscle exertion/activation that is attempted to be applied to produce force, e.g. very high, high, moderate, light, very light

3) position of the heel of the foot, e.g raised, neutral, lowered. And whether (and how) the position for the foot is being changed during the segment

Jay

1) Maximal forward force around 11 o'c which continues and is fully tangential at 12, that same force is then bent slightly downward to retain the tangential effect at 1, after 1.30 the slightly bent downward force combines with the natural downward force resulting in maximal tangential force at 2, between 2 - 3 the natural downward force takes over until 5 where the simultaneous switchover of maximal force application between legs takes place, the idling foot is then drawn backward and up to about 10 where it is pushed by the other leg to 11 where the changeover takes place.
2) As much as what is required. (up to very high)
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

PS As the foot is drawn backward from 5 to 10 o'c (no scraping of mud off shoe) unweighting and dorsiflexion is taking place and this df extends the range of plantar flexion from 11 to 2. It is the use of plantar flexion that makes it possible to bend the glutes/quads maximal torque from 12 past 1 o'c.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

...
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

--------------------------------
Thanks for the details - I had thought that the technique used 'heel down' at 11, and then forcefully moved to 'heel up' at about 1:30.

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

...
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

--------------------------------
Thanks for the details - I had thought that the technique used 'heel down' at 11, and then forcefully moved to 'heel up' at about 1:30.

Jay

" Which muscles are used?
Plantar flexion involves a coordinated effort between several muscles in your ankle, foot, and leg. These include:

Gastrocnemius: This muscle makes up half of your calf muscle. It runs down the back of your lower leg, from behind your knee to the Achilles tendon in your heel. It’s one of the main muscles involved in plantar flexion.

Soleus: The soleus muscle also plays a major role in plantar flexion. Like the gastrocnemius, it’s one of the calf muscles in the back of the leg. It connects to the Achilles tendon at the heel. You need this muscle to push your foot away from the ground.

Plantaris: This long, thin muscle runs along the back of the leg, from the end of the thighbone down to the Achilles tendon. The plantaris muscle works in conjunction with the Achilles tendon to flex your ankle and knee. You use this muscle every time you stand on your tiptoes.

Flexor hallucis longus: This muscle lies deep inside your leg. It runs down the lower leg all the way to the big toe. It helps you flex your big toe so that you can walk and hold yourself upright while on your tiptoes.

Flexor digitorum longus: This is another one of the deep muscles in the lower leg. It starts out thin, but gradually widens as it moves down the leg. It helps to flex all the toes except for the big toe.

Tibialis posterior: The tibialis posterior is a smaller muscle that lies deep in the lower leg. It’­s involved with both plantar flexion and inversion — when you turn the sole of the foot inward toward the other foot.

Peroneus longus: Also called fibularis longus, this muscle runs along the side of the lower leg to the big toe. It works with the tibialis posterior muscle to keep your ankle stable while you stand on tiptoe. It’s involved in both plantar flexion and eversion — when you turn the sole of the foot outward, away from the other foot.

Peroneus brevis: The peroneus brevis, also called the fibularis brevis muscle, is underneath the peroneus longus. “Brevis” means “short” in Latin. The peroneus brevis is shorter than the peroneus longus. It helps keep your foot stable while in plantar flexion.^

In this technique plantar flexion is used in combination with a very different use of the glutes and quads when generating the maximal force between 11 and 2 o'c. You need to warm up for about 10 mins with natural pedalling before using it

 

[JayKosta]

Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay

I added a PS to my earlier description. Like all other scientists involved with cycling physiologists believe it's impossible to apply maximal torque at 12 o'c and that is why the futile search for the ideal oval chainring still continues.
http://www.bikeblogordie.com/2016/05/a-short-history-of-elliptical-chainrings.html

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay

I added a PS to my earlier description. Like all other scientists involved with cycling physiologists believe it's impossible to apply maximal torque at 12 o'c and that is why the futile search for the ideal oval chainring still continues.
http://www.bikeblogordie.com/2016/05/a-short-history-of-elliptical-chainrings.html

There's no believing required. These things have been measured for decades*.
Just show us some data Noel.

* Actually the first force measurement pedals were made in the 1890s.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay

I added a PS to my earlier description. Like all other scientists involved with cycling physiologists believe it's impossible to apply maximal torque at 12 o'c and that is why the futile search for the ideal oval chainring still continues.
http://www.bikeblogordie.com/2016/05/a-short-history-of-elliptical-chainrings.html

There's no believing required. These things have been measured for decades*.
Just show us some data Noel.

* Actually the first force measurement pedals were made in the 1890s.

"These things have been measured for decades*"

For what purpose ?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Noel you keep claiming all sort of things about ways to apply torque to the bicycle cranks.

Yet you produce absolutely zero evidence by the way of pedal force or crank torque data. The technology exists to supply this information and has existed for a long time. So supply some data.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

... It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

-----------------------------------------------------------
It would be helpful if you described these factors for each 30 degree segment of crank rotation -

1) Direction that force is being applied to the pedal

2) Amount of muscle exertion/activation that is attempted to be applied to produce force, e.g. very high, high, moderate, light, very light

3) position of the heel of the foot, e.g raised, neutral, lowered. And whether (and how) the position for the foot is being changed during the segment

Jay

1) Maximal forward force around 11 o'c which continues and is fully tangential at 12, that same force is then bent slightly downward to retain the tangential effect at 1, after 1.30 the slightly bent downward force combines with the natural downward force resulting in maximal tangential force at 2, between 2 - 3 the natural downward force takes over until 5 where the simultaneous switchover of maximal force application between legs takes place, the idling foot is then drawn backward and up to about 10 where it is pushed by the other leg to 11 where the changeover takes place.
2) As much as what is required. (up to very high)
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

PS As the foot is drawn backward from 5 to 10 o'c (no scraping of mud off shoe) unweighting and dorsiflexion is taking place and this df extends the range of plantar flexion from 11 to 2. It is the use of plantar flexion that makes it possible to bend the glutes/quads maximal torque from 12 past 1 o'c.

" Strength and Forces of the ankle and foot

The strongest movement at the ankle or foot is plantar flexion. Plantar flexion strength is greatest from a position of slight dorsiflexion. A starting dorsiflexion angle of 105 deg. will increase plantar flexion force by 16% from the neutral 90 deg. position. "
All part of the perfect pedalling technique.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Data please Noel.

 

[JayKosta]

Question about tug-of-war muscle usage (since it has been mentioned several times).

Is there any online information about how the lower leg and foot muscles are used or trained for t-o-w? The info that I have found primarily discusses the upper leg and back muscles as providing the 'driving force'. I can understand how it might 'feel' that the foot is being strongly pushed forward by the lower leg, but I cannot determine if that is actually happening.

Jay