The pedaling technique thread

[backdoor]

Re:

Question about tug-of-war muscle usage (since it has been mentioned several times).

Is there any online information about how the lower leg and foot muscles are used or trained for t-o-w? The info that I have found primarily discusses the upper leg and back muscles as providing the 'driving force'. I can understand how it might 'feel' that the foot is being strongly pushed forward by the lower leg, but I cannot determine if that is actually happening.

Jay

No because like pedalling it is an instinctive action'
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“Unfortunately, the clubs are declining, just because of the reasons outlined, plus, the special mat we use could be anything up to two and a half grand just for that. It’s hard to raise money, and if you’re training, the shoes will only last you three weeks — that’s another 40 or 50 euro. Then if you’re going in a competition, you need three or four pairs of shoes. So it is a big expense and there are a lot more outdoor teams than there are indoor, because in the former, the one pair of shoes will do you for your whole career.
One other worry for many people is the risk of injury, with reports of some gruesome injuries occurring over the years, including accidents involving the loss of fingers and severed arms. Nonetheless, Gallagher is adamant that only those who have not been trained properly and lack any real experience are at risk of such harm.

I wouldn’t be concerned [about injuries],” he says. “The reason people get bad injuries is because they don’t do it right. Our anchorman had a really bad back, but since he started pulling tug of war 10 years ago, he never had a day’s bother with his back, his legs or anything else. I presume the men who get injured are outdoor men, which is completely different to indoor.

When you bend your back away from your set position, that’s when you get injured. In indoor tug of war, if you see the pictures, every man has a straight back. You can’t bend over, because if you bend, the team’s going to take it, and it’s not going to get back. So you’ve more chance of getting hurt in outdoor tug of war than indoor tug of war. And there are instances of people with bad backs who are actually encouraged to start tug of war.”
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Those doing pedalling research are unaware of the fact that by means of hip and knee extension the powerful glute and quad muscles are capable of generating two equal maximal forces at 90 deg. to each other and plantar flexion not only merges these two forces, it also maximizes torque around 1.30 o'c. Tug o'war is the only sport I know of that uses these two forces, one for outdoor and the other for indoor. In outdoor t o'w, power is applied through the heel and is generated in almost the same way as natural pedalling, with as mentioned above the same back problems. The indoor people apply it mostly through the ball of foot in a forward direction and the amount of wear on the shoes gives an indication of the force that is being generated. Indoor uses plantar flexion.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make *** up.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.

Did you need data before you would believe using the downhill skiers upper body position would improve TT times ?

 

[JayKosta]

It appears that indoor t-o-w competitors can produce very high levels of 'forward horizontal foot force' (my terminology) - otherwise the lower leg bend at the knee could not be maintained during the 'moving pull step' (as opposed to the almost straight leg 'hold position'. But the relationship of that force to pedalling is unclear to me - primarily because t-o-w is a very short duration event with small actual movement, and appears to be highly anaerobic.
see -
http://www.headconf.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/7927.pdf
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/3821/3540

Jay

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.

Did you need data before you would believe using the downhill skiers upper body position would improve TT times ?

Data was available - speed data from empirical testing along with existing detailed knowledge of the aerodynamics of changing the shape of an object through fluid flow - this was well established science, with clearly understood outcomes and lots of data already. There was no need for "belief".

You have not provided any data to demonstrate changes in performance due to some mythical way of pedalling on a bicycle.

Even something as simple as power output resulting from changes to pedalling technique would suffice, let alone data on the actual application of torque to the bicycle cranks.

Not a single bit of data. Nil, nada, zip.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

It appears that indoor t-o-w competitors can produce very high levels of 'forward horizontal foot force' (my terminology) - otherwise the lower leg bend at the knee could not be maintained during the 'moving pull step' (as opposed to the almost straight leg 'hold position'. But the relationship of that force to pedalling is unclear to me - primarily because t-o-w is a very short duration event with small actual movement, and appears to be highly anaerobic.
see -
http://www.headconf.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/7927.pdf
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/3821/3540

Jay

Strenuous is the word I would use, that small movement is due to the almost equal pulling power of the opposing teams. They are applying that force from shoe to a fixed mat, if instead of a mat that was a fast moving pedal you would get the necessary amount of leg movement for 180 deg. of maximal force for as long as required. I discovered the technique when I succeeded in combining arm and leg power when riding in the saddle, this is impossible with natural pedalling because you will only pull yourself out of the saddle. It so happens the technique is identical to what indoor t o'w teams use and that's what makes it so easy to explain.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

It so happens the technique is identical to what indoor t o'w teams use and that's what makes it so easy to explain.

Provide the data Noel.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.

Did you need data before you would believe using the downhill skiers upper body position would improve TT times ?

Data was available - speed data from empirical testing along with existing detailed knowledge of the aerodynamics of changing the shape of an object through fluid flow - this was well established science, with clearly understood outcomes and lots of data already. There was no need for "belief".

You have not provided any data to demonstrate changes in performance due to some mythical way of pedalling on a bicycle.

Even something as simple as power output resulting from changes to pedalling technique would suffice, let alone data on the actual application of torque to the bicycle cranks.

Not a single bit of data. Nil, nada, zip.

For how long has this data from well established science been available ?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Are you kidding me Noel?

Empirical understanding of such fluid dynamics goes back thousands of years. Any culture that made waterfaring craft or needed to better understand fluid flows understood such basic principals.

As far as specific data from measuring the impacts of air movement around objects of different shapes, the first fully enclosed wind tunnels with force measurement devices capable of measuring the specific drag coefficients of different shaped objects emerged in the latter part of the 19th Century.

Mathematical descriptions of such fluid flows were developed in the early part of the 19th Century, e.g. the development of the Navier-Stokes equations, which are still used in today's computational fluid dynamics.

Around the turn of the 20th century Osborne Reynolds worked out that scale models in such wind tunnels behaved in the same manner as full scale if adjusted based on a certain parameter, now known as the Reynold's number (for fluid velocities under approx Mach 0.3), which significantly opened up the field of research and collection of data as scale models could be successfully used, and they still are used throughout such research today. Wind tunnels and associated research collecting data was happening world wide in many facilities from the early 20th Century.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.

Can you say exactly what it is you can't believe without seeing data. CoachFergie and PhitBoy believe Anquetil's superiority in flat TT's was due to his VO2MAX, do you agree with that. They all took drugs in those days.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.

Can you say exactly what it is you can't believe without seeing data. CoachFergie and PhitBoy believe Anquetil's superiority in flat TT's was due to his VO2MAX, do you agree with that. They all took drugs in those days.

Drugs have been part of the sport since it was invented and still are part of the sport. So what?

I doubt Hamish or Jim ever said it was only due to his VO2max, but rather a very high VO2max is one of several attributes necessary to be a grand tour champion / excellent TT rider, let alone be an elite level pro rider. This is known not only from direct measurement of such riders's physiological attributes but also from physiological first principles.

TT speed is directly correlated with the ratio of a rider's sustainable aerobic power to coefficient of aerodynamic drag (CdA). Putting the aero part of the equation to one side, the power side can't be magically bought without having a high VO2max. It doesn't necessarily require one to have the highest VO2max, as sustainable aerobic power is a function of more than VO2max, but you should already know that since it's been repeated here so many times it ain't funny.

That you would dispute this is kind of strange.

But then given the nonsense you keep banging on with, I suppose you disputing such fundamentally basic notions of the factors involved with human athletic performance it perhaps isn't all that strange.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

In any case, Anquetil is a red herring. What we want Noel is some actual data on your mythical pedalling technique improving cycling performance.

Until you provide some data showing the application of torque around the pedal stroke, please stop wasting everyone's time.

This is not difficult to obtain. The technology to do this at a net level for both legs has been available at consumer level for decades, e.g. the SRM torque analysis system, a Racermate Computrainer, a Wattbike, and more recently some other power meters can provide such data.

Even though they are not lab grade pedal force measurement systems, these home based systems are more than sufficient to demonstrate what you suggest will make such an improvement to performance.

That such data can be readily obtained with common consumer level devices and that you persistently have refused to do so tells us you are just dreaming.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

... Can you say exactly what it is you can't believe without seeing data. ...

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The part that is not believed is that the pedalling technique that you describe can be maintained for a long duration at a higher power level than the 'conventional' technique.

Need for data to show:

1) The overall power generation.
The details of 'where' and 'how' the power is generated would verify that your technique is being used, and to show that the technique is actually different than the conventional.

2) The duration that the power level can be maintained.
This is very important because there is doubt that the muscles employed in the technique you describe can be sustained for a TT duration.

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Are you kidding me Noel?

Empirical understanding of such fluid dynamics goes back thousands of years. Any culture that made waterfaring craft or needed to better understand fluid flows understood such basic principals.

As far as specific data from measuring the impacts of air movement around objects of different shapes, the first fully enclosed wind tunnels with force measurement devices capable of measuring the specific drag coefficients of different shaped objects emerged in the latter part of the 19th Century.

Mathematical descriptions of such fluid flows were developed in the early part of the 19th Century, e.g. the development of the Navier-Stokes equations, which are still used in today's computational fluid dynamics.

Around the turn of the 20th century Osborne Reynolds worked out that scale models in such wind tunnels behaved in the same manner as full scale if adjusted based on a certain parameter, now known as the Reynold's number (for fluid velocities under approx Mach 0.3), which significantly opened up the field of research and collection of data as scale models could be successfully used, and they still are used throughout such research today. Wind tunnels and associated research collecting data was happening world wide in many facilities from the early 20th Century.

That's my point, with so much of this information available for so long, why did pro cycling have to wait for those from another sport (only 10 years old) to discover that by adapting the downhill skiers' frontal body position TT times could be improved. The pro world laughed at the idea as they clung to their long standing belief that a very narrow hand/arm position would seriously restrict breathing. The same can be said now about adapting the simple maximal power generating technique of indoor tug o'war for use in cycling's dead spot sector, but coaches and scientists have another long standing belief that because the legs and feet are constrained to move in a circle, there's nothing that can be done to improve pedalling technique, and PhitBoy claims to have produced data to confirm this nonsense even though he also said it was not the job of scientists to search for new ways to improve technique. I have explained in detail how this adaptation can be done for anyone interested in experimenting. It would be interesting to know what and where muscles were maximized in PhitBoy's study but alas this information is only available to those willing to pay for it. Over 500 published studies on pedalling technique and not one improvement to the biomechanics of pedalling, looks like the only benefits that resulted from these studies were in the CV's of those doing the studies.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

... The pro world laughed at the idea as they clung to their long standing belief that a very narrow hand/arm position would seriously restrict breathing. ...

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I think that IS the basic reason the position wasn't adopted earlier - and especially because nobody was using the positon and being successful. In a similar vein, it would be interesting to know whether cyclists during JA time tried to emulate his technique, and what were the results. Perhaps others did try, but were not successful because they lacked some necessary physical aspects.

Jay

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Noel, you are making extraordinary claims. So provide the extraordinary proof. Why are you waiting? It's really quite a straightforward task. Imagine the vast fame and wealth you could acquire by unleashing these massive legal performance gains on the cycling world and dominating pro cycling in a fashion no one could possible have dreamed possible?

That pro cyclists took a while to adopt aerodynamic equipment is a function of history, rules and availability of equipment to use in such events.

Aerodynamic fairings were used on bikes back in the early part the 20th century (1910-20) and shown to be significantly faster, not because of superior power output but because of superior aerodynamics. But the UCI prohibited the use of such aero equipment and did not recognise them as bicycles for the purpose of races or for records sanctioned by the UCI.

That they eventually permitted some aero technology on a bike and refined and adjusted their rules in subsequent years has been the main drag on such things being adopted by the professional ranks.

Chester Kyle began a resurgence in aerodynamics for cyclists in the 1970s, targeting fully faired and recumbent designs but he also worked on the projects that would pass UCI regulations in the 1980s for the US Olympic teams, and aero development blossomed from there.

Again, the aero discussion is just a big fat red herring, as is bringing up Anquetil for 5 bazillionth time.

Just show us the data Noel.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

[quote="
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it would be interesting to know whether cyclists during JA time tried to emulate his technique, and what were the results. Perhaps others did try, but were not successful because they lacked some necessary physical aspects.

Jay[/quote]

They did but like Steve Hogg thought pedalling toes down was all that was involved. His power generating was undetectable, those looking at his TT pedalling footage these days don't even notice he has no dead spot sector.
J Bobet appears to have been the only cyclist who was aware of this.
http://www.cyclinglegends.co.uk/index.php/features/interviews/9-jean-bobet

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

it would be interesting to know whether cyclists during JA time tried to emulate his technique, and what were the results. Perhaps others did try, but were not successful because they lacked some necessary physical aspects.

Jay

They did but like Steve Hogg thought pedalling toes down was all that was involved. His power generating was undetectable, those looking at his TT pedalling footage these days don't even notice he has no dead spot sector.
J Bobet appears to have been the only cyclist who was aware of this.
http://www.cyclinglegends.co.uk/index.php/features/interviews/9-jean-bobet

Power output is **not** undetectable. What a load of nonsense.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

...
They did but like Steve Hogg thought pedalling toes down was all that was involved. His power generating was undetectable, those looking at his TT pedalling footage these days don't even notice he has no dead spot sector.
J Bobet appears to have been the only cyclist who was aware of this.
http://www.cyclinglegends.co.uk/index.php/features/interviews/9-jean-bobet

-------------------------
I couldn't find anything in the Bobet article about specifics of JA's technique, other than the mention of it being very smooth, and JA's attention to an aerodynamic body position.

Power analysis data would help avoid problems such as you mentioned regarding Hogg.

Jay

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

...
They did but like Steve Hogg thought pedalling toes down was all that was involved. His power generating was undetectable, those looking at his TT pedalling footage these days don't even notice he has no dead spot sector.
J Bobet appears to have been the only cyclist who was aware of this.
http://www.cyclinglegends.co.uk/index.php/features/interviews/9-jean-bobet

-------------------------
I couldn't find anything in the Bobet article about specifics of JA's technique, other than the mention of it being very smooth, and JA's attention to an aerodynamic body position.

Power analysis data would help avoid problems such as you mentioned regarding Hogg.

Jay

"One particular reason I admired Anquetil was because, although I studied literature, I am fascinated by mathematics and physics. Anquetil was perfection at continuous motion. His system was totally adapted to it, so much that he could not support interruptions to his effort."
continuous motion (i.e.) non stop power application.
I will explain why I am not supplying data later.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

I will explain why I am not supplying data later.

This'll be good.

 

[PhitBoy]

Goodness gracious I have really missed an erudite discussion! Why didn't anyone tell me?
I can't post the pdf of our recent paper because of copyright issues but I can send it to one person at a time. Send me your email address and I'll send you the reprint. It will be really good to hear about all the mistakes we made and the reviewers at JEB missed.
Alternatively Noel, does your town have a library? Any library can request a document via inter-library loan.
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/221/13/jeb180109
Cheers,
Jim

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

... Can you say exactly what it is you can't believe without seeing data. ...

---------------------------------------------------
The part that is not believed is that the pedalling technique that you describe can be maintained for a long duration at a higher power level than the 'conventional' technique.
Jay

You are only using this part of your 180 deg. power stroke for less than 90 deg.. In this sector you are using the glutes and quads in a different and more effective way in combination with the strongest and most fatigue resistant muscle in the lower body (soleus) and of course the plantar flexion force. You are also using arm resistance to counteract the instant application of maximal force at 11. This distribution of the workload means low stress on all muscles involved. You are also gaining an extra 120 deg of maximal force application time in each revolution of the chainring, over an hour this can result in several minutes of extra pedalling time which is something the inventors of the rotor crank were erroneously claiming. In addition to all of this you are getting a higher torque return from the force you are applying than what is got in natural pedalling and the lower your upper body position, the more powerful your pedalling. You could not get a more sustainable way of applying torque to your cranks.
My reason for not supplying data is I am unable to. I don't have the necessary equipment and even if I had it, I would not be able to use it because I hate all this technology including power meters and only use the computer for very limited internet use and I have no intention of learning about this at my age. Nobody around here is interested in pedalling technique because time saving equipment and clothing is available for instant use. But this equipment and clothing comes at a high price and as a result, the numbers taking part in tt's are reducing while road racing numbers are steadily increasing. While the T o' W technique could be adapted for use in pedalling in a day or two, as with Anquetil, it takes a couple of years to perfect a completely different technique for maximal effect, with the necessary changes to bike set-up etc.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Goodness gracious I have really missed an erudite discussion! Why didn't anyone tell me?
I can't post the pdf of our recent paper because of copyright issues but I can send it to one person at a time. Send me your email address and I'll send you the reprint. It will be really good to hear about all the mistakes we made and the reviewers at JEB missed.
Alternatively Noel, does your town have a library? Any library can request a document via inter-library loan.
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/221/13/jeb180109
Cheers,
Jim

There are no errors in the study (abstract). But only existing pedalling techniques were used. What muscles were maximized between 11 - 1 o'c ?
It's in these conclusions the errors arise. If ye were only aware of power application in existing styles, how could ye know what another technique would be capable of ?

Hi Jay:
We maximized the power that every muscle produced throughout the pedal cycle and came up with patterns that look almost identical to what cyclists do. That means there is nothing else the muscles can do to produce power in some other technique. Any other technique will be less powerful, not more. The differences we saw at the ankle occur during the middle of the recovery portion of the cycle where an active ankle extension would be counter productive. That is, even though soleus could produce more power during that portion of the cycle, doing so would produce negative power on the crank.

 

[PhitBoy]

Re: Re:

Okay, I think I see what you're getting at: Different techniques might produce different kineamtics which would change muscle length trajectories thereby facilitating a different approach to power production. Is that it?
While the theory is plausible, the actual possible changes are quite small. Even with the large scale changes in movement patterns of maximal sprinting vs endurance riding the knee and hip joint actions are very similar. Larger changes can be make in ankle motion but muscles that span the ankle contribute only a small portion of the overall power.
So yes, we constrained our muscle trajectories to match what cyclists actually did but then we maximized the power they could produce independent of any notion of how that power ought to look. As it turned out, it looked very much like what people do. Any theory of subtle changes in ankling making large changes in muscle trajectories are not supported.
Cheers,
Jim

There are no errors in the study (abstract). But only existing pedalling techniques were used. What muscles were maximized between 11 - 1 o'c ?
It's in these conclusions the errors arise. If ye were only aware of power application in existing styles, how could ye know what another technique would be capable of ?