The Real Football Thread

[pmcg76]

You know the feeling when you have been totally absorbed by a match with your faverourite team in it and then the next day you realise that nobody but you thought it was epic?

That's why I'm surprised this match is the talk of the town today. Everybody is talking about where I live, apparantly the game had an amazing impact, so I guees your view is shared by very few.

Of course I'm a long time Chelsea supporter so for me yesterday was bordering to a nervous breakdown. Cetainly could have done without all that drama.

But I don't think you comparsion makes sense. tactics in football and cycling aren't that similar. Let's say team x is a very physical strong team and team y is a very strong passing team. Team x does not in general have to catch a lucky break to win. Sometimes team x is just superior, whereas Cancellara very often is the strongest guy, especially when he loses out to a second tier rider like Nuyens.

Obviously Chelsea was lucky yesterday, but luck is a different size in football. I just don't agree with you. Think 3 years back and Chelsea almost proved my point...

A physical strong team should dominate physically all over the pitch, not sit on the edge of their own penalty area the entire game. Chelsea do not usually play like they do against Barcelona so why have they so little faith in their own abilities.

Unfortunately too many teams adopt the "park the bus" tactic specifically for Barcelona and its sad to watch. I dont think Barcelona are that amazing that other teams cannot match them in terms of football.

As someone who likes good football, parking the bus is the ultimate in negativity. I understand it for teams who are clearly inferior to their oposition but teams adopting this tactic in the CL semi-finals is just sad.

 

[The Hitch]

Im afraid Spanish teams are just taking it easier again before a major tournament.

Theyll be back next year when its just confed cup.

 

[pmcg76]

Sigh.

Messi is not a great penalty taker. Dead average by the numbers (~ 75%). I think that was his 3rd miss this year. You must have him mistaken for Ronaldo, who since moving to La Liga owns a 96% conversion rate.

I will say it again, Barcelona created very little in the second half after the penalty. Speculative shots and half-chances, nothing more; much like the first leg, when the match was over, Barcelona for all their "possession" they only managed to create 5 solid chances.

Thats still more chances than Chelsea created over both legs. If one teams puts their entire team behind the ball, of course it is more difficult to create chances.

Just watching the highlights on Irish television tonight and analyst and former star player Liam Brady called it a freak result.

 

[Ragerod]

Two good semi-finals and two deserving finalists.

Hopefully this 'Barca are the best team ever' talk can finally be put to bed. No team can be called that when on two occasions they've failed to get the necessary goals playing 10-men for an extended period.

 

[Bike Boy]

A physical strong team should dominate physically all over the pitch, not sit on the edge of their own penalty area the entire game. Chelsea do not usually play like they do against Barcelona so why have they so little faith in their own abilities.

Unfortunately too many teams adopt the "park the bus" tactic specifically for Barcelona and its sad to watch. I dont think Barcelona are that amazing that other teams cannot match them in terms of football.

As someone who likes good football, parking the bus is the ultimate in negativity. I understand it for teams who are clearly inferior to their oposition but teams adopting this tactic in the CL semi-finals is just sad.

Your generel point here is not stupid, I would almost go as far as to say that it made sense when I read it, but there's a reason multiple top teams with very experienced managers has adopted this tactic against Barcelona. United used it to some extent in 2008. Inter was also in the same boat in 2010. On both occasion with great succes.

At top level winning is very important and everybody knows that if you "play" football against barca, you are already in a very bad postion simply because the game will be on their terms. In a champions league semi with millions at stake, you don't want to give them that advantage beforehand, it's just stupid.

I don't know how Chelsea managed to get this far because honestly they have been rubish all season, In such a bad shape it's only logic that they applied the "bus" tactic to such an extreme extent this time around.

On a side note I find it ironic that it was Mourinho who popularized the term "parking a bus" as a chelsea manager, complaining about the opponent.

 

[The Hitch]

Your generel point here is not stupid, I would almost go as far as to say that it made sense when I read it, but there's a reason multiple top teams with very experienced managers has adopted this tactic against Barcelona. United used it to some extent in 2008. Inter was also in the same boat in 2010. On both occasion with great succes.

At top level winning is very important and everybody knows that if you "play" football against barca, you are already in a very bad postion simply because the game will be on their terms. In a champions league semi with millions at stake, you don't want to give them that advantage beforehand, it's just stupid.

I don't know how Chelsea managed to get this far because honestly they have been rubish all season, In such a bad shape it's only logic that they applied the "bus" tactic to such an extreme extent this time around.

On a side note I find it ironic that it was Mourinho who popularized the term "parking a bus" as a chelsea manager, complaining about the opponent.

What did narcisinho say ?

 

[pmcg76]

Your generel point here is not stupid, I would almost go as far as to say that it made sense when I read it, but there's a reason multiple top teams with very experienced managers has adopted this tactic against Barcelona. United used it to some extent in 2008. Inter was also in the same boat in 2010. On both occasion with great succes.

At top level winning is very important and everybody knows that if you "play" football against barca, you are already in a very bad postion simply because the game will be on their terms. In a champions league semi with millions at stake, you don't want to give them that advantage beforehand, it's just stupid.

I don't know how Chelsea managed to get this far because honestly they have been rubish all season, In such a bad shape it's only logic that they applied the "bus" tactic to such an extreme extent this time around.

On a side note I find it ironic that it was Mourinho who popularized the term "parking a bus" as a chelsea manager, complaining about the opponent.

Yes it is ironic that it was Mourinho who coined the phrase when he used that very tactic when Inter defeated Barca in 2010 and last season when Real lost out in those horrible games. When people think of the beautiful game, they think of the romanticised idea of the great Brazil teams of the Pele era who were renowned for their skills, not playing 11 men behind the ball for entire games.

When teams adopt such a tactic, they are more less admitting that Barcelona are superior and the only way to defeat them is by not playing football. For me it goes against the ethos of what football should be.

Thing is Chelsea adopted the exact same tactics in 09 up until the final 15 minutes at Stamford Bridge. They squeaked an away goal at Camp Nou and then sat back and defended at home form the very beginning. Yes, they were robbed but I always felt it was just desserts for their negativity and the better team made the final that year.

I know what its like to support such a negative team, not in soccer but in our own Gaelic football when my team decided last year to play the most negative, ugly football ever shat on a football pitch. Our style of play was vilified by the whole of Ireland and we became the team everyone loved to hate(when we are normally well liked) but it almost brought us the title. Whilst it was nice to have some success, it was also incredibly embarrasing at times and I dont think I could watch many more years of that type of football regardless of success.

 

[Swede1]

That was a really exciting finish to the game. Ronaldo was definitely tired or something cause he wasnt playing very well in the second half, and then missed the penalty. Im glad Bayern Munich won though, I wonder how they will match up against Chelsea.

 

[Caruut]

To allow the opposition to dictate to you the way you should play is to throw away the game before you even kick off. Frankly, sitting deep and remaining disciplined is by far the best tactic against a side like Barcelona. They employ a small, pacey front 3, with 2 midfielders extremely capable at through balls, and a strange aversion to shooting from range. In my mind, they are a technically gifted, yet tactically one-dimensional team.

If they had a player with some height and strength, they could ping ball after ball into the box, and eventually, it'd end up on his head. The opposition would have to close them down, which would create some more space, then they'd be able to work their pacey tricky strikers in.

If they had a player or two able and willing to take long-range shots which threatened the opposition goal, then the opposition would have to devote players to closing them down, and they'd create some space to work in the pacey players.

As it is, there isn't space to get in behind the opposition, and no reason for the opposition to move. Playing with only one tactic is fine, so long as no-one knows how to defend against it. Once they learn, however, you are as much at fault as they are for the fact that they employ negative tactics.

 

[Bala Verde]

Unless you give him a blue and white striped shirt to wear, whereupon he promptly forgets all of this

Not necessarily. Messi is as much a product of the Barcelona-school as much as Barcelona relies on individuals like Messi. (as a side note, didn't he join Barcelona at the ag of 8 or something, after which he went through their academy?). The Barcelona school needs someone lik Messi, an architect, who due to his particular skills and qualifications take the whole team (that has a very typical and distinguished style) to the next level. IMO Messi wouldn't be as successful in many other teams, whereas Barcelona, without a player like Messi, wouldn't be as effective.

He has particular skills that are superbly suited to Barcelona, skills that in any other team wouldn't take the team beyond the sum of its parts. He is strategically gifted (in a split second he finds openings and makes an instant decision to move the ball), he is a probably one of the few midfielders who barely ever loses possession (while forward thinking) (even when dribbling you'll see that various defenders have trouble stealing the ball; that's why they often resort to fouling him to stop him), he has the intuity and the skills to temporize the game; he can accelerate ball circulation at a whim, by positioning, passing, or dribbling, which can rip apart a defensive line.

But despite these skills, he is highly dependent on his team. Ball circulation can only increase when the rest of the team cooperates, due to positioning and passing. The movement of the totality of the lines (up and down the field, shifting from offense to defense and vice versa) are extremely important for him to be effective. He always needs unmarked people to pass the ball to.

Argentina plays a different game, a style that I would say, doesn't exploit his abilities maximally. Argentina plays with too many people behind the ball (catenaccio style), leaning heavily on defense, which makes it difficult for him to be forward thinking/moving (there are just fewer opportunities to pass the ball to). Barcelona's style also heavily relies on 'subconscious' patterns that you will only achieve when you play with your colleagues 24/7. Playing nationally, you'd never achieve that kind of predictability and reliability.

One of the reasons Barcelona lost to chelsea, besides a bit of bad luck, because Chelsea was far weaker (I'd even say that they don't stand a chance against bayern), was their inability to maintain a high level of ball circulation, which is a prerequisite to playing apart tight defensive lines.

 

[Bavarianrider]

 

[Bavarianrider]

That was a really exciting finish to the game. Ronaldo was definitely tired or something cause he wasnt playing very well in the second half, and then missed the penalty. Im glad Bayern Munich won though, I wonder how they will match up against Chelsea.

Ronaldo choked as he always does in big games, simple as that.

 

[pmcg76]

Ronaldo choked as he always does in big games, simple as that.

It is quite amazing how many times Ronaldo has underperformed when it really matters.

 

[pmcg76]

To allow the opposition to dictate to you the way you should play is to throw away the game before you even kick off. Frankly, sitting deep and remaining disciplined is by far the best tactic against a side like Barcelona. They employ a small, pacey front 3, with 2 midfielders extremely capable at through balls, and a strange aversion to shooting from range. In my mind, they are a technically gifted, yet tactically one-dimensional team.

If they had a player with some height and strength, they could ping ball after ball into the box, and eventually, it'd end up on his head. The opposition would have to close them down, which would create some more space, then they'd be able to work their pacey tricky strikers in.

If they had a player or two able and willing to take long-range shots which threatened the opposition goal, then the opposition would have to devote players to closing them down, and they'd create some space to work in the pacey players.

As it is, there isn't space to get in behind the opposition, and no reason for the opposition to move. Playing with only one tactic is fine, so long as no-one knows how to defend against it. Once they learn, however, you are as much at fault as they are for the fact that they employ negative tactics.

Yet you are completely ignoring the fact that despite being limited tactically they still created a huge amount of clear cut chances over the two legs. More chances than most teams get in any game. Their biggest failing is often their failure to be more clinical in front of goal. They hit the woodwork 4 times in the games against Chelsea. When you consider Chelsea had about 4 chances over the entire tie and took three of those, I think Barca's real weakness is obvious and its not an inability to break down defences. When they had Ibrahimovic, they were no better.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Pep Guardiola will announce tomorrow if he's staying at Barca.

 

[Caruut]

Yet you are completely ignoring the fact that despite being limited tactically they still created a huge amount of clear cut chances over the two legs. More chances than most teams get in any game. Their biggest failing is often their failure to be more clinical in front of goal. They hit the woodwork 4 times in the games against Chelsea. When you consider Chelsea had about 4 chances over the entire tie and took three of those, I think Barca's real weakness is obvious and its not an inability to break down defences. When they had Ibrahimovic, they were no better.

Completely ignore? Their finishing wasn't great, I just don't think it's that relevant. Chelsea created at least half as many "clear cut chances" as Barcelona over the two ties. Barcelona had 47 shots in total, to Chelsea's 11, but so many of those were just blasting it at defenders when they got into the box and were crowded out - to me that is more a symptom of their tactical deficiencies than it is of poor finishing.

I just don't think Barcelona were actually creating that many quality chances. Yes, replay the tie and most of the time Barcelona go through, but given how bad Chelsea have been this year, I really think that Barcelona's approach deserves criticism.

 

[The Hitch]

Thing is Chelsea adopted the exact same tactics in 09 up until the final 15 minutes at Stamford Bridge. They squeaked an away goal at Camp Nou and then sat back and defended at home form the very beginning. Yes, they were robbed but I always felt it was just desserts for their negativity and the better team made the final that year.

Did they. as i remember 1st leg was goalless not "sneaked an away goal" and barca didn't even produce much. bojan missed a sitter and Henry had a pen appeal but chelsea were well worth their draw. 2nd leg chelsea were on the attack. not only did they score they had 2 potential pen appeals from bursting into the box and this was all in the first half before alvez was sent off.

This was before Barcelona were the undisputed best in the world that everyone just sat back and still in the days where a team like chelsea, 3rd not 5th in the league and narrow runners up the previous year, felt that they were as good as anyone

 

[The Hitch]

Pep Guardiola will announce tomorrow if he's staying at Barca.

Would be a moron not to. has the easiest job in the world for which he gets paid and praised beyond ones.dreams. and to leave at the end of the one season where the team has failed rather than on a high.

Don't make sense. then again footballers aren't the brightest bunch.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Athletic Club are going to the final!!! A very good game of football between Athletic and Sporting, but there could only be one winner. The deficit from the first leg wiped out by Susaeta, but Sporting equalised just before half-time, and it knocked the wind out of them... for less than 60 seconds. I feared that if they went in at half-time at 1-1 despite Athletic's having the edge, they'd fall apart, but Ibai Gómez, so quiet for much of the season but in excellent form right now, was having none of it, and restored Athletic's advantage straight away.

Both teams had disagreements with the woodwork in the second half, Martínez with a header for Athletic, and a monstrous 30m thunderbolt of a free kick from Insúa for Sporting - that was a phenomenal strike.

In the end, in the last few minutes, Ibai turned the defence inside out, and his deflected cross was stabbed home off the post with a poke of the toe by who else but the Lion King himself, Fernando Llorente.

Succeeding where Guardiola and Narcisinho failed!!!

 

[The Hitch]

The Basque country is one of those few beautiful areas in the world where people care about cycling, If they start being good at football theyll move away from it.

It is important for cycling that they lose.

 

[Bike Boy]

Yes it is ironic that it was Mourinho who coined the phrase when he used that very tactic when Inter defeated Barca in 2010 and last season when Real lost out in those horrible games. When people think of the beautiful game, they think of the romanticised idea of the great Brazil teams of the Pele era who were renowned for their skills, not playing 11 men behind the ball for entire games.

When teams adopt such a tactic, they are more less admitting that Barcelona are superior and the only way to defeat them is by not playing football. For me it goes against the ethos of what football should be.

Thing is Chelsea adopted the exact same tactics in 09 up until the final 15 minutes at Stamford Bridge. They squeaked an away goal at Camp Nou and then sat back and defended at home form the very beginning. Yes, they were robbed but I always felt it was just desserts for their negativity and the better team made the final that year.

I know what its like to support such a negative team, not in soccer but in our own Gaelic football when my team decided last year to play the most negative, ugly football ever shat on a football pitch. Our style of play was vilified by the whole of Ireland and we became the team everyone loved to hate(when we are normally well liked) but it almost brought us the title. Whilst it was nice to have some success, it was also incredibly embarrasing at times and I dont think I could watch many more years of that type of football regardless of success.

No goals at Camp Nou..! remember? I would like to get into the discussion at some point again because I have a few points reagarding your respond, but work is taking a great toll on me so I'm off to bed now.

Cheers

 

[pmcg76]

No goals at Camp Nou..! remember? I would like to get into the discussion at some point again because I have a few points reagarding your respond, but work is taking a great toll on me so I'm off to bed now.

Cheers

Yes it would appear that my fears are being realised by the fact that my memory is starting to slip or maybe I dont just dont get that drawn into games. I just remember being happy at the time that the team who had tried to play football progressed.

Seen bits and pieces of the game tonight, Bilbao v Lisbon, looked like a cracker which seems to be confirmed by the posts here.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Basque country is one of those few beautiful areas in the world where people care about cycling, If they start being good at football theyll move away from it.

It is important for cycling that they lose.

Don't worry. While Athletic may be doing well (they're actually no better in the league this year than last), Sociedad are pretty poor at the moment, so Gipuzkoa can keep its cycling love, while Araba doesn't have a first division team at all.

Besides, if Bielsa goes to Barcelona, expect Athletic back playing the good old muscular style of old (and the team to be raided to go and be substitutes at the Camp Nou)...

 

[Amsterhammer]

Athletic Club are going to the final!!! A very good game of football between Athletic and Sporting, but there could only be one winner.

Congrats on a totally deserved win! I watched an enjoyable game where Athletic were always the better side. I will certainly be rooting for you against the 'mattresses'.

Let's hope for your sake that Guardiola stays, so that Bielsa will stay too. Whether Llorente will go.....someone is likely to offer the club an awful lot of money for him this summer - will they be able to say no?

 

[lejarreta]

The Basque country is one of those few beautiful areas in the world where people care about cycling, If they start being good at football theyll move away from it.

It is important for cycling that they lose.

Sorry to disagree, but Athletic lost the UEFA final in late 70's. Real Sociedad and Athletic won La Liga early 80's (4 championships in a row) AND my favorite cyclist (mind my nick) was there, and most important all the fans too. Txuriurdinak also were on a CL semifinal (I don't remember the year, you know, that's just my brother's and half my family's team)
We are feminine. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Orain eta beti, gora Athletic!