Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Flamin]

That make absolutely no sense.

Why? How would you simulate racing circumstances in a training ride?

 

[jmdirt]

Why? How would you simulate racing circumstances in a training ride?

Maybe we have a different definition of 'training ride'. Most training rides are mini races (even if they are solo, they are racing their watometer). Obviously not recovery days, or photo shoots, but these guys are on the gas a lot of days. They also race a lot which simulates racing circumstances precisely (RE hasn't raced much this year for obvious reasons).

 

[red_flanders]

Why? How would you simulate racing circumstances in a training ride?

Well you could...go as far up a col in the Alps or Pyrenees as conditions and time of year allow. Bring your mates. Race down, loser buys dinner. It's close enough a simulation to get in some real practice on long descents where you can corner over and over again. Climb or drive back up. Repeat as necessary.

I think the issue for Remco, is that he can't afford to have an accident like kids growing up riding MTB or BMX or whatever do all the time. We all learned bike handling before we were 12, by competing with our friends, crashing when our bodies were pliable and not worth millions a year.

Seems like maybe he didn't have this. Now he has to train and be careful given the number of crashes. Or so I presume.

 

[Oldman]

Guys you do realise that Rogla is the one then, who will be teaching Remco cornering.

Roglic is an exceptional descender. Fast enough to have Dumoulin and a few others complain about his proximity to the lead moto when he dropped them and added time on the flats. Never mind they couldn't see the moto; just complain.
He has overcooked a corner but who hasn't? Being knocked off your bike by fans, riders and hay bales is not the same as being less than stellar at cornering. Watch his cornering at Catalunya. All of the pack kept losing time to him on the downhill.

 

[jmdirt]

Well you could...go as far up a col in the Alps or Pyrenees as conditions and time of year allow. Bring your mates. Race down, loser buys dinner. It's close enough a simulation to get in some real practice on long descents where you can corner over and over again. Climb or drive back up. Repeat as necessary.

I think the issue for Remco, is that he can't afford to have an accident like kids growing up riding MTB or BMX or whatever do all the time. We all learned bike handling before we were 12, by competing with our friends, crashing when our bodies were pliable and not worth millions a year.

Seems like maybe he didn't have this. Now he has to train and be careful given the number of crashes. Or so I presume.

Unfortunately, while our bodies are pliable and our minds are invincible those injuries add up to kick our ars at a later date!

There certainly is a high likelihood that he is tentative because crashing fn hurts, and having bruised lungs, and broken bones is scary (to some/most).

 

[yaco]

anyone else seen how Groves avoided crashing. I dare say Remco and/or Roglic would have always gone down. So would most of the peloton to be honest. I watched that clips at least a dozen times. Magic.

It was luck. Groves is an average bike handler at best, and spent the first two years of his career in crash after crash and was lucky to get a third year in the pro peleton.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You like to invite people down a trail only to push them off of a cliff before you take another trail.

Yes, a baker would be a better coach than someone who races bikes for a living. Don't tell me that you were trying to be funny because its not funny. Everyone can see a corner with their eyes, where you still trying to be funny, you missed it again.

RE needs to be riding with someone, watch their lines, and then work on following their lines.

An important thing that is being missed in this too is that the 'best' line is frequently not the one that a racer can take due to many factors. So you can't just point at the 'best' line and say 'do that every time'.

If your baker is a seasoned biker and your pro rider is Evenepoel, yes the baker would be a better coach. Hands down. Not trying to be funny, just stating simple facts. What i do think is funny is that you keep bringing up and muddying the discussion with things like "the dominant hand" which has absolutely ZERO relevance to how you judge a corner and pick your lines. Now you come up with some other phantom argument. I think Remco has been riding with other people and has been watching their lines for 7 years now and clearly it isn't working. Assuming he is not mentally challenged, i believe nobody has ever taken the time of simply explaining to him how to take a corner and what exactly he is doing wrong, simply because they teach you this stuff 10 years before most turn pro. Except, he took a different path and everybody assumed it was ok. So no, i doubt your solution is helping, because that is exactly what he has been doing with zero success. There is a theory behind cornering which he clearly does not understand as he keeps cutting into his corners completely wrong. It has nothing to do with "many factors preventing you taking the best line". He does it when he's riding solo, in TT's on descents, when he's leading the bunch...

Except... not. We are talking about a rider who is missing the absolute basics of cornering. Could you point out to me all the different factors that were impeding his judgement of the corner Berniece posted yesterday? He attacked, he overtook Almeida before the corner, he was leading the race, there was nobody next to him, there was nobody ahead of him, he had a clear view of the corner, he completely blew it and steered into the corner far too early. In fact it was Almeida who had the obstructed view with Evenepoel ahead of him, yet Almeida took the corner perfectly and overtook Evenepoel coming out of the corner, because Evenepoel had to hit the brakes to avoid crashing out of the corner. Same thing each and every time there is a downhill. Last year, he came over the top of Galibier about 10 seconds after Vingegaard. He was solo. By the time everybody reached the valley the gap with Pogacar and Vingegaard had grown substantially and he was caught by the guys chasing him. Which were the different factors then that made it more difficult and different from the other riders taking the exact same route?
Same with his TT's. Last year in the final TT, he lost some time to Pogacar on the climbs, but he lost the most time in the descent. Actually in the first TT it was also in the descent that Pogacar was able to take time back, and now two days ago, he again lost time to Pogacar in the technical part of the TT, there was nobody ahead of him, he did not catch his 2-minute-man (Skjelmose). Please point out how him taking those corners like a grandma has anything to do with not being able to ride the best line.
We are not asking him to become a BMX rider. But for his own safety and his career results, it's imperative that he learns the basics, as he clearly does not understand the theory behind cornering. Because it IS in fact a theory, regardless of what jmdirt wants you to believe, that can be taught even at a later age. Proof of that is in the thousands of people that learn to ride a motorcycle as an adult without crashing out of corners left and right or without prior knowledge or being a professional cyclist. Why? Because when you take motorcycle lessons these things are actually explained to you.

Maybe if he had done less of that, his palmares would have matched his potential. No, on a serious note, sure he does, as he is, or was(?) until recently, also focused on CX and MTB.

Exactly.. WHILE they are out everyday. Not targetted technique training at the cost of endurance training. It's hard to practice cornering at race intensity in training anyway.

In his first year as a pro, he rode Adriatico Ionica. First stage was a gravel stage. He crashed a few times and lost minutes in GC. A year later (edit: two years later) he rode his first Giro. We all remember the gravel stage, right? In that time they had done nothing to teach him how to ride dirt/gravel, even though he wanted to defend a GC. Then two years ago i believe, he finally did a gravel race in the US, when he was there for Specialized. During last year's gravel stage in the Tour, you could see he made immense progress. Specifically training on a weakness, especially when you are missing the basics because in his case he was kicking a ball instead of learning how to ride a bike, is simply the only way to improve. But people keep acting like it's no big deal, keep ignoring the elephant in the room. He loses time in TT's he loses time in descents, he loses opportunities, he has to compensate by spending more energy etc... This is his 7th year as a pro. I think it's time to realise he isn't going to improve unless they put in the work.

 

[houtdffan]

If your baker is a seasoned biker and your pro rider is Evenepoel, yes the baker would be a better coach. Hands down. Not trying to be funny, just stating simple facts. What i do think is funny is that you keep bringing up and muddying the discussion with things like "the dominant hand" which has absolutely ZERO relevance to how you judge a corner and pick your lines. Now you come up with some other phantom argument. I think Remco has been riding with other people and has been watching their lines for 7 years now and clearly it isn't working. Assuming he is not mentally challenged, i believe nobody has ever taken the time of simply explaining to him how to take a corner and what exactly he is doing wrong, simply because they teach you this stuff 10 years before most turn pro. Except, he took a different path and everybody assumed it was ok. So no, i doubt your solution is helping, because that is exactly what he has been doing with zero success. There is a theory behind cornering which he clearly does not understand as he keeps cutting into his corners completely wrong. It has nothing to do with "many factors preventing you taking the best line". He does it when he's riding solo, in TT's on descents, when he's leading the bunch...


Except... not. We are talking about a rider who is missing the absolute basics of cornering. Could you point out to me all the different factors that were impeding his judgement of the corner Berniece posted yesterday? He attacked, he overtook Almeida before the corner, he was leading the race, there was nobody next to him, there was nobody ahead of him, he had a clear view of the corner, he completely blew it and steered into the corner far too early. In fact it was Almeida who had the obstructed view with Evenepoel ahead of him, yet Almeida took the corner perfectly and overtook Evenepoel coming out of the corner, because Evenepoel had to hit the brakes to avoid crashing out of the corner. Same thing each and every time there is a downhill. Last year, he came over the top of Galibier about 10 seconds after Vingegaard. He was solo. By the time everybody reached the valley the gap with Pogacar and Vingegaard had grown substantially and he was caught by the guys chasing him. Which were the different factors then that made it more difficult and different from the other riders taking the exact same route?
Same with his TT's. Last year in the final TT, he lost some time to Pogacar on the climbs, but he lost the most time in the descent. Actually in the first TT it was also in the descent that Pogacar was able to take time back, and now two days ago, he again lost time to Pogacar in the technical part of the TT, there was nobody ahead of him, he did not catch his 2-minute-man (Skjelmose). Please point out how him taking those corners like a grandma has anything to do with not being able to ride the best line.
We are not asking him to become a BMX rider. But for his own safety and his career results, it's imperative that he learns the basics, as he clearly does not understand the theory behind cornering. Because it IS in fact a theory, regardless of what jmdirt wants you to believe, that can be taught even at a later age. Proof of that is in the thousands of people that learn to ride a motorcycle as an adult without crashing out of corners left and right or without prior knowledge or being a professional cyclist. Why? Because when you take motorcycle lessons these things are actually explained to you.


In his first year as a pro, he rode Adriatico Ionica. First stage was a gravel stage. He crashed a few times and lost minutes in GC. A year later he rode his first Giro. We all remember the gravel stage, right? In that time they had done nothing to teach him how to ride dirt/gravel, even though he wanted to defend a GC. Then two years ago i believe, he finally did a gravel race in the US, when he was there for Specialized. During last year's gravel stage in the Tour, you could see he made immense progress. Specifically training on a weakness, especially when you are missing the basics because in his case he was kicking a ball instead of learning how to ride a bike, is simply the only way to improve. But people keep acting like it's no big deal, keep ignoring the elephant in the room. He loses time in TT's he loses time in descents, he loses opportunities, he has to compensate by spending more energy etc... This is his 7th year as a pro. I think it's time to realise he isn't going to improve unless they put in the work.

one point of clarification, Remco ended up catching Vingo on the Galiber descent. While Remco had an AWFUL descent, Vingo managed to do an even worse one

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

one point of clarification, Remco ended up catching Vingo on the Galiber descent. While Remco had an AWFUL descent, Vingo managed to do an even worse one

He did not catch Vingegaard on the descent. He caught him on the flats after the descent.

 

[Flamin]

Maybe we have a different definition of 'training ride'. Most training rides are mini races (even if they are solo, they are racing their watometer). Obviously not recovery days, or photo shoots, but these guys are on the gas a lot of days. They also race a lot which simulates racing circumstances precisely (RE hasn't raced much this year for obvious reasons).

We were talking about bike handling skills. You can't practice going downhill at 100km/h during training, on open roads. Or how to ride in a (nervous) peloton. That was my point.

Well you could...go as far up a col in the Alps or Pyrenees as conditions and time of year allow. Bring your mates. Race down, loser buys dinner. It's close enough a simulation to get in some real practice on long descents where you can corner over and over again. Climb or drive back up. Repeat as necessary.

Sounds good when you are still young and not thinking about the consequences. Less when you are a grown man with a family.

 

[Berniece]

So in your opinion the Tour 2025 SOQ team is a legit GT GC team?

With Vervaeke and Landa they would again be the 3rd best team.

 

[KoopaCycling]

It was luck. Groves is an average bike handler at best, and spent the first two years of his career in crash after crash and was lucky to get a third year in the pro peleton.

Even if it was luck, it was incredible. And this time at least had the right instincts.

 

[Berniece]

Would be nice if he attacked on Saint-Mayeux, but he'll probably just follow UAE train

 

[houtdffan]

He did not catch Vingegaard on the descent. He caught him on the flats after the descent.

He was caught on the very lower slopes where it is less technical

Not sure what happened as Remco had descended the technical parts like he had a parachute, but then Vingo did the same at the bottom

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He did not catch Vingegaard on the descent. He caught him on the flats after the descent.

Yes, Evenepoel was the slowest of GC contenders on the steeper and more dangerous part of the descent. Vingegaard was descending the upper slopes ok considering what kind of fear he had to overcome.

 

[red_flanders]

Sounds good when you are still young and not thinking about the consequences. Less when you are a grown man with a family.

Well, people do this kind of thing for fun, so not sure why some young pro riders wouldn’t.

I’ve done Tours in the Alps where we regularly got to 85-90 kph on the descents. No closed roads, just bombing big cols. Yes, you do hit the occasional bit of traffic and have to slow, but you actually end up passing cars.

Not really that hard to practice descending at a level which makes a difference. MTB in a warm climate like California can also get you some proper skill enhancement.

But for sure Evenepoel has to really be careful of getting hurt at this point. He missed a lot of years of learning this stuff naturally which it seems he’ll never really make up.

 

[Andre]

so this will be it for the last 100 kilometers?

 

[Andre]

Remco for the win

 

[Andre]

Visma should be the ones chasing hard...pick up the break and then hit as hard as possible....and then their plan to tire Tadej may work inthe long run

 

[jmdirt]

We were talking about bike handling skills. You can't practice going downhill at 100km/h during training, on open roads. Or how to ride in a (nervous) peloton. That was my point.


Sounds good when you are still young and not thinking about the consequences. Less when you are a grown man with a family.

Professional riders frequently race each other down hills during training for two reasons: being good at it when it counts, and most of them find it an entertaining break from the grind. Yes, they are on open roads, but they almost always have a team car and/or a scooter or two supporting them and scouting the road.

This discussion really isn't about riding in a nervous peloton.

 

[jmdirt]

you keep bringing up and muddying the discussion with things like "the dominant hand" which has absolutely ZERO relevance to how you judge a corner and pick your lines.

1- I never said 'dominant hand', you used that term.
2-You brought in Cal not me.
3-The throttle has 100% relevance to how you pick your lines on a moto. FYI: no throttle on a bicycle, just momentum and gravity.

If your baker is a seasoned biker and your pro rider is Evenepoel, yes the baker would be a better coach.

Which was the point that I made when you brought in Cal. Unless a moto guy also understand the dynamics of how a bicycle corners, they will be of little help (including picking lines).

 

[jmdirt]

On one hand, he used too much energy in the last bit there.
On the other hand, he kept out of trouble.
On the third hand , he looked solid.

 

[Snake]

Pogacar couldn't believe to have remco has his best teammate today...

 

[KoopaCycling]

Remco looked good. But also human. Pogacar and Vingegaard again on another level.
Mostly though i am once again reminded why i dislike crashes. That stuff came out of nowhere.
Not good. Not good at all. Lets' hope Remco stays safe.

Vingegaard sitting in his train near the front, Pogacar rocksteady in the group. Evenepoel up and down, up and down the group. He needs a train.

All in all a good day for Remco.

For an easy week, first week has been tough.
Timegaps:
1. Pogacar
2. Remco +54
3. Vingegaard +1.14
4. Jorgenson + 1.34
5. Lipowitz + 3.02
6. Roglic + 3.06
7. Skjelmose + 3.43
8. Mas + 4.53
9. Gall + 4.49
10. Rodriguez + 4.51

Only Top 4 relative close to each other.
If remco stays upright and in shape, he'll need to keep an eye out for Jorgenson.

 

[KenFiamingo]

Pogacar couldn't believe to have remco has his best teammate today...

Idd weird tactics. While the flatter last 700m could have given an opportunity to solo, he burns his matches pacing on the steepest part.
Anyway, Let's take it as a sign feels good.