Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[spalco]

What would hte problem be if TT positions are unrestricted?

Safety. Same with the bike weight, and certain body positions on the bike - "super tuck", "superman", and bicycle geometry.

Imagine Ganna TTing on a futuristic Obree-style minimal carbon bike without top tube weighin 5kgs or something (I don't know what's the current top of the line standard for non-UCI legal bikes), and holding the handlebars with 50cm of spacers on top.

Maybe he can handle it, but someone will crash horribly doing that and break their neck.

I do think bike weight restrictions should be reviewed though. I think you can safely go under 6.8kg, probably significantly so, especially for smaller frames.

eta: although, if I got to be dictator of the UCI for a day, I would force everyone to ride steel bikes exclusively.

 

[tobydawq]

Safety. Same with the bike weight, and certain body positions on the bike - "super tuck", "superman", and bicycle geometry.

Imagine Ganna TTing on a futuristic Obree-style minimal carbon bike without top tube weighin 5kgs or something (I don't know what's the current top of the line standard for non-UCI legal bikes), and holding the handlebars with 50cm of spacers on top.

Maybe he can handle it, but someone will crash horribly doing that and break their neck.

I do think bike weight restrictions should be reviewed though. I think you can safely go under 6.8kg, probably significantly so, especially for smaller frames.

eta: although, if I got to be dictator of the UCI for a day, I would force everyone to ride steel bikes exclusively.

Why on Earth would someone break their neck from a crash? Have you ever heard of that happening?

 

[spalco]

Why on Earth would someone break their neck from a crash? Have you ever heard of that happening?

I was being hyperbolical, but clearly a bigger distance between the arms and the handlebars makes steering and balance more difficult. That's obvious for anyone who's ever sat on a bike.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I do think bike weight restrictions should be reviewed though. I think you can safely go under 6.8kg, probably significantly so, especially for smaller frames.

The structural strength of a larger frame for a 80kg rider has to be considerably higher than for a shorter 60kg rider in order to be equally stiff and safe. The same with brakes. In order to get a bike with a 60kg rider to stop, it takes a lot less power than with an 80kg rider. You could use smaller discs or lighter brakes and still be as safe or safer for a light rider. So why are big riders with more power favoured here? Why do light riders have to tow weight around they do not need?

So when it concerns aero advantages of the bike, big riders need the same advantages as short riders, but when it concerns weight advantages of the bike, the same does not apply for short riders. Some may find the UCI rules concerning TT arms positions stupid, but they were made so that all riders would have the same frontal ''envelop'' to hide their heads behind. If you want to argue that bigger riders (who do not have a bigger head, mind you) need a scaled advantage, then the same should apply to bike weight and other possible factors.

 

[Red Rick]

Weight based bike weight is interesting because it should make mountain stages a lot more interesting.

But it's probably impossible to enforce.

 

[Sciatic]

Weight based bike weight is interesting because it should make mountain stages a lot more interesting.

But it's probably impossible to enforce.

You mean like horse racing, where horses are given added weight to carry?

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

You mean like horse racing, where horses are given added weight to carry?

Haha. Maybe make that Mt Ventoux Challenge race a handicap chase and see how it goes?

 

[spalco]

Weight based bike weight is interesting because it should make mountain stages a lot more interesting.

But it's probably impossible to enforce.

Not weight-based, size-based. Frame up to A cm can be B weight, frame up to C cm can be D weight, etc.

Do you remember how ridiculous Rujano looked on the bike? I think there's a good chance he would have been faster on 650c wheels if the weight restriction had been looser.

 

[Extinction]

Not weight-based, size-based. Frame up to A cm can be B weight, frame up to C cm can be D weight, etc.

Do you remember how ridiculous Rujano looked on the bike? I think there's a good chance he would have been faster on 650c wheels if the weight restriction had been looser.

Sure, that way each rider finds his optimal ratio between size and bike weight. Of course, it's up to each rider to find that equilibrium, but the rules should allow for it, and may the best man win.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Weight based bike weight is interesting because it should make mountain stages a lot more interesting.

But it's probably impossible to enforce.

Pure watts per kilogram then. Maybe more petite climbers reminiscent of mountain runners and possible cheating with riders' weight.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

They're key because it's uphill, not because of Cobbles (which play a factor, just not a massive one).

What sort of block would he have on uphill cobbles? I would understand downhill or slippy flat passages but it's not like he's gonna crash on Paterberg.

Did you see the Giro last year? Evenepoel immediately fell back, on the flat and ascending sections of gravel.
Did you see the Brabantse Pijl this year? Evenepoel immediately fell back on the cobblestones uphill.
There is only a psychological explanation for that.

 

[Berflamand]

Did you see the Giro last year? Evenepoel immediately fell back, on the flat and ascending sections of gravel.
Did you see the Brabantse Pijl this year? Evenepoel immediately fell back on the cobblestones uphill.
There is only a psychological explanation for that.

To be fair, at the Brabantse Pijl he fell back because he couldn't/wouldn't ride in the gutter. If everybody had to ride on the cobbles he would have lost a lot less time. In the races where the Moskesstraat played a big role (Druivenkoers, WC) he wasn't the best on the cobbles of the Moskesstraat but he didn't lose much time either if I remember correctly.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

To be fair, at the Brabantse Pijl he fell back because he couldn't/wouldn't ride in the gutter. If everybody had to ride on the cobbles he would have lost a lot less time. In the races where the Moskesstraat played a big role (Druivenkoers, WC) he wasn't the best on the cobbles of the Moskesstraat but he didn't lose much time either if I remember correctly.

But he lost time on the cobbles anyway. And additionally not be able/not dare to ride/climb in the gutter is part of the problem. This way you have no chance in any race in which a number of real cobblestone strips occur. Not in Gent-Wevelgem, not in Flanders, not in Dwars door België, not in Harelbeke. Not even in the Nieuwsblad.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Did you see the Giro last year? Evenepoel immediately fell back, on the flat and ascending sections of gravel.
Did you see the Brabantse Pijl this year? Evenepoel immediately fell back on the cobblestones uphill.
There is only a psychological explanation for that.

I did see the Giro last year and unlike you I apparently paid attention because he lost positioning on the flat/descending parts of the gravel not on the ascents. Which is exactly what I said before - downhill or fast ridden flat passages: Difficult psychological because it is technical. Uphill stomps like in Flanders where basically no one crashes and the speed itself is not high: Not difficult psychologically.
As @Berflamand said, he messed up in Brantse Pijl because of the gutter - an issue he wouldn't really face in Flanders. And it's a very small sample to draw conclusions from.
Given that we're fully into armchair psychology here: What he showed in Itzulia with regards to difficult technical descends tells me that he doesn't really look like he has any psychological fear issues left from his crash. And that was a bigger sample size than one Brabantse Pijl.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I did see the Giro last year and unlike you I apparently paid attention because he lost positioning on the flat/descending parts of the gravel not on the ascents. Which is exactly what I said before - downhill or fast ridden flat passages: Difficult psychological because it is technical. Uphill stomps like in Flanders where basically no one crashes and the speed itself is not high: Not difficult psychologically.
As @Berflamand said, he messed up in Brantse Pijl because of the gutter - an issue he wouldn't really face in Flanders. And it's a very small sample to draw conclusions from.
Given that we're fully into armchair psychology here: What he showed in Itzulia with regards to difficult technical descends tells me that he doesn't really look like he has any psychological fear issues left from his crash. And that was a bigger sample size than one Brabantse Pijl.

This is what actually killed him that day. Having to repeatedly make up in the uphill sections, what he had lost on the downhill.

 

[houtdffan]

This is what actually killed him that day. Having to repeatedly make up in the uphill sections, what he had lost on the downhill.

same thing happened on the Zoncolon stage. He got dropped on a descent and had to waste energy catching back on

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

I did see the Giro last year and unlike you I apparently paid attention because he lost positioning on the flat/descending parts of the gravel not on the ascents. Which is exactly what I said before - downhill or fast ridden flat passages: Difficult psychological because it is technical. Uphill stomps like in Flanders where basically no one crashes and the speed itself is not high: Not difficult psychologically.
As @Berflamand said, he messed up in Brantse Pijl because of the gutter - an issue he wouldn't really face in Flanders. And it's a very small sample to draw conclusions from.
Given that we're fully into armchair psychology here: What he showed in Itzulia with regards to difficult technical descends tells me that he doesn't really look like he has any psychological fear issues left from his crash. And that was a bigger sample size than one Brabantse Pijl.

Nothing to do with difficult technical descends. This is about gravel and cobblestones. The stage in the Giro with arrival on gravel, won by Bernal. At the transition from asphalt to (flat) gravel, Evenepoel immediately disappeared from the front to the tail of the large leading group. A psychological block. Once he got some grip on the gravel, he moved forward again. During the actual gravel ride, we also saw Evenepoel lose time on the flat gravel sections. Apparently you didn't see that stage.

In Flanders there are gutters on many cobblestone climbs. They are usually not sealed off with nadar. In contrast to the Patersberg. In addition, due to his physique, he cannot use his (full) power on cobblestones. Evenepoel cannot join if VDP, Van Aert, Pogacar, Asgreen accelerate on cobblestone climbs. Maybe in a few years.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

In addition, due to his physique, he cannot use his (full) power on cobblestones. Evenepoel cannot join if VDP, Van Aert, Pogacar, Asgreen accelerate on cobblestone climbs. Maybe in a few years.

So, what is it that is preventing him, his physique or his age? What exactly do you expect to change in a few years that his physique will not be an issue anymore?
Alaphilippe weighs roughly the same as Evenepoel, Pogacar is only slightly heavier and both of them are punchier vs Evenepoel who is more of a diesel. That should -if anything- be an advantage on cobbles, not the opposite.

 

[Oldermanish]

Why on Earth would someone break their neck from a crash? Have you ever heard of that happening?

Abso-f*cking-lutely. Happened to me when someone went down in front and I rodeo'd over the bars. First point of contact was the back of my head. I stuck the landing, though and did not bounce or slide. End of racing for me after fusion surgery, 6 uncomfortable months in a cervical collar and a family intervention.

 

[Sciatic]

Abso-f*cking-lutely. Happened to me when someone went down in front and I rodeo'd over the bars. First point of contact was the back of my head. I stuck the landing, though and did not bounce or slide. End of racing for me after fusion surgery, 6 uncomfortable months in a cervical collar and a family intervention.

so sorry!

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

So, what is it that is preventing him, his physique or his age? What exactly do you expect to change in a few years that his physique will not be an issue anymore?
Alaphilippe weighs roughly the same as Evenepoel, Pogacar is only slightly heavier and both of them are punchier vs Evenepoel who is more of a diesel. That should -if anything- be an advantage on cobbles, not the opposite.

It's not because you weigh the same that you climb equally well or badly. Ditto with riding over cobblestones. Physique, the ratio of upper and lower legs, the upper body. With an improving technique and with experience you can gradually reduce that physical disadvantage .... and get rid of your psychological block at the same time.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It's not because you weigh the same that you climb equally well or badly. Ditto with riding over cobblestones. Physique, the ratio of upper and lower legs, the upper body. With an improving technique and with experience you can gradually reduce that physical disadvantage .... and get rid of your psychological block at the same time.

I know what physique means, i'm asking what it is about his physique that is hampering him (supposedly) and could be overcome in time.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

I know what physique means, i'm asking what it is about his physique that is hampering him (supposedly) and could be overcome in time.

As I stated, body proportions. You will have noticed that Evenepoel looks slightly different from other riders with the same body lenght. Which certainly influences power transmission, stability and steering ability. Which undoubtedly has when cycling on gravel and cobblestones. And I'm not the only one to have noticed this. At Evenepoel, this clearly also affects his psyche. What complicates matters even more. But that can certainly be worked on, with the right guidance .

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

As I stated, body proportions. You will have noticed that Evenepoel looks slightly different from other riders with the same body lenght. Which certainly influences power transmission, stability and steering ability. Which undoubtedly has when cycling on gravel and cobblestones. And I'm not the only one to have noticed this. At Evenepoel, this clearly also affects his psyche. What complicates matters even more. But that can certainly be worked on, with the right guidance .

This reads like mumbo jumbo. What is it about his body proportions, that prevents him from steering correctly, alters his stability and influences his power transmission in a way that he could not ride on cobbles? Yes, we can all see he has short legs in relation to his upper body. How does that explain any of your claims?

 

[Oldermanish]

This reads like mumbo jumbo. What is it about his body proportions, that prevents him from steering correctly, alters his stability and influences his power transmission in a way that he could not ride on cobbles? Yes, we can all see he has short legs in relation to his upper body. How does that explain any of your claims?

About the only thing that can seriously affect "steering" is a bad bike position and setup. Ideally you don't ever "steer" a bike. Turning, especially technical alpine descending is mostly weight transfer and posture change coordinated with braking. A decent position is balanced enough that, under power, you should have almost no weight on the bars. If he can't do that then he's been coached badly on position. I've witnessed that with young pursuiters and TT'ers who were coached into emphasizing aero over handling for a specific event(s). That emphasis for a TT might be OK but you'd go more neutral for road racing. Those extreme positions also tend to lead to femoral artery and nerve pressure in younger riders.