Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Rob5091]

It definitely is strange if it was not a physical problem, but maybe doing TdSuisse was wrong and then aiming for WC TT and Vuelta was also causing problems?

 

[Barkintheeye]

Agreed, however, the legs he had today were GC podium material had he not experienced the debacle. So it must have been largely mental, as the stark difference in performances was astounding. He certainly was given a leash, but on the finishing climb the leaders' group did not take time back on him. And I doubt they were just pacing it. Whatever the case, he and his entourage need to figure out what went wrong and fix it. If that means getting a sports psychologist, get a sports psychologist.

Absolutely mental (90%). The simple explanation is that when he realized - early on stage 13 feeling the combined pressure from the other top contenders - that a GC podium was not going to happen he gave up. We can be almost sure that if he would have done his absolute best it wouldn’t have been enough to contest JV but the loss would also not have been 27 minutes.

Instead he chose to ease up, save himself for another day and to be in a position where breakaways would be allowed. Some would call it smart but for example Wout van Aert would never ride like that out of respect for his fans, race organizers, competitors and for himself. That’s another approach. I prefer the latter.

On the point of Remco being both a superior 1D rider AND a superior GC rider… the answer is quite clearly no. He is good but there are specialists that are better.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

This „Mihai Simion“ guy is good, and his infos seem to be valuable… Is it Antoine Vayer?…

No...
It is Mihai Simion, a well known cycling nerd from Romainia.

 

[Extinction]

On the point of Remco being both a superior 1D rider AND a superior GC rider… the answer is quite clearly no. He is good but there are specialists that are better.

At 23, with all the pressure and expectation placed upon him in Belgium, I don't think the final word has been written on his GT status. Sure, on the face of it, he's not on their level, but his is a unique situation and his team is no Jumbo-Visma or even UAE. One thing potentially not in his favor, is that he's not as lithe and decidedly "bulkier" than his rivals. In other words, his natural body type does not seem in line with a modern GT winner. If true, I don't know how much he can change that without compromising power. However, as one matures a cyclist's body tends to conform to the rigors placed upon it, but he'll never have an Ayuso type physique, which seems more natural and less extreme than Vingegaard's.

 

[Savant12]

I'm not sure we're going to get an explanation for the Remco collapse. It wasn't a completely fatiguing Simon Yates blowing up nor a "On a bad day" Pog. If it was more mental rather than physical then that should be a bigger worry for the team.

 

[Barkintheeye]

At 23, with all the pressure and expectation placed upon him in Belgium, I don't think the final word has been written on his GT status. Sure, on the face of it, he's not on their level, but his is a unique situation and his team is no Jumbo-Visma or even UAE. One thing potentially not in his favor, is that he's not as lithe and decidedly "bulkier" than his rivals. In other words, his natural body type does not seem in line with a modern GT winner. If true, I don't know how much he can change that without compromising power. However, as one matures a cyclist's body tends to conform to the rigors placed upon it, but he'll never have an Ayuso type physique, which seems more natural and less extreme than Vingegaard's.

It’s hard to be a Jack of all trades in today’s cycling. Possibly impossible. Should Remco wisely chose his battles for the future he will most likely rack up an impressive amount of big wins albeit maybe not the ones his fans are expecting

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

It’s hard to be a Jack of all trades in today’s cycling. Possibly impossible.

Pogacar is doing it really well so it could be possible for Remco as well.

 

[AmRacer]

Pogacar is doing it really well so it could be possible for Remco as well.

Pog vs Remco Il Lombardia, can't wait for the battle.

 

[Jagartrott]

Let's go full amateur psychologist here for a moment.

My hunch is that Evenepoel has a tremendous need to prove himself. It's something that is likely inherent, but his football career may have exacerbated this a great deal. As a young kid, he started playing at Anderlecht, at the time the biggest club in Belgium. He then went to PSV, a major Dutch club, before returning to Anderlecht later on. He apparently did so well there that he made it to the Belgian national youth team. He was captain at PSV, Anderlecht and the national team. He seemed destined for a football career, until everything imploded.

I think this should not be underestimated. Kids dream big, and he seemed nearly there, and then he had to leave that all behind. Luckily for him, he turned to cycling, which gave him a second chance. It would be quite logical that he now wants to do everything to prove himself 'worthy' there, and I think it's mostly himself that cranks up the pressure to be the best, to always perform. I've hardly seen him enter a race where is relaxed. He always wants to win, and actually does so very often. His list of titles at 23 is amazing. Both Worlds, both national titles, one European, a monument, a GT, etc. But that doesn't seem enough. He wants everything - all GTs, beating the best of best GC riders.

He could've let the Vuelta slip this year and focus on the Worlds and Lombardia. But he didn't. He wanted to prove himself after the (second) Giro letdown, he wanted to battle Roglic and Vingegaard. Then having a bad day, or a bad start of the day in stage 13, seeing his new dreams vanish in smoke... I guess that caused a major mental breakdown, and he let it slide, couldn't fight for a 7th or so in GC as that clearly does not interest him.

Of course, the incredible need to prove himself, coupled with his physical skills (especially long range attacks) made yesterday possible. As cycling fans, I think we should be happy to have him - there is always something to see when he participates. For himself, I think in order to stay mentally healthy and not have some kind of major breakdown, I guess he needs professional support to channel his ambitions in a more sustainable way. Also, he needs to move away from SQS. I think he is more or less king there and does not have people around him that can really teach him how to be and do better (e.g. training, food, tactics). When your DS is Lodewyck, who never was anywhere near world class, you know that it's easy for Evenepoel to disregard his advice on racing (like yesterday "do nothing, no breakaways").

 

[SafeBet]

Why are we assuming he doesn't have professional support ie a mental coach or a psychologist? It's fairly common in today's pro sport.
Has he stated he doesn't get that support? Or worse he doesn't want it?

 

[Extinction]

It’s hard to be a Jack of all trades in today’s cycling. Possibly impossible. Should Remco wisely chose his battles for the future he will most likely rack up an impressive amount of big wins albeit maybe not the ones his fans are expecting

I'd say until he's 26-27 years old, he'll try to win the Tour de France. If he is not successful, he'll shift direction at that point.

 

[Extinction]

Why are we assuming he doesn't have professional support ie a mental coach or a psychologist? It's fairly common in today's pro sport.
Has he stated he doesn't get that support? Or worse he doesn't want it?

I don't know if that's the assumption, but after the other day he may need one if that's not already the case.

 

[Berniece]

Why are we assuming he doesn't have professional support ie a mental coach or a psychologist? It's fairly common in today's pro sport.
Has he stated he doesn't get that support? Or worse he doesn't want it?

He has this, the team has it. Has been shown a couple of times in the SQS 2022 season documentary

 

[AmRacer]

Let's go full amateur psychologist here for a moment.

My hunch is that Evenepoel has a tremendous need to prove himself. It's something that is likely inherent, but his football career may have exacerbated this a great deal. As a young kid, he started playing at Anderlecht, at the time the biggest club in Belgium. He then went to PSV, a major Dutch club, before returning to Anderlecht later on. He apparently did so well there that he made it to the Belgian national youth team. He was captain at PSV, Anderlecht and the national team. He seemed destined for a football career, until everything imploded.

I think this should not be underestimated. Kids dream big, and he seemed nearly there, and then he had to leave that all behind. Luckily for him, he turned to cycling, which gave him a second chance. It would be quite logical that he now wants to do everything to prove himself 'worthy' there, and I think it's mostly himself that cranks up the pressure to be the best, to always perform. I've hardly seen him enter a race where is relaxed. He always wants to win, and actually does so very often. His list of titles at 23 is amazing. Both Worlds, both national titles, one European, a monument, a GT, etc. But that doesn't seem enough. He wants everything - all GTs, beating the best of best GC riders.

He could've let the Vuelta slip this year and focus on the Worlds and Lombardia. But he didn't. He wanted to prove himself after the (second) Giro letdown, he wanted to battle Roglic and Vingegaard. Then having a bad day, or a bad start of the day in stage 13, seeing his new dreams vanish in smoke... I guess that caused a major mental breakdown, and he let it slide, couldn't fight for a 7th or so in GC as that clearly does not interest him.

Of course, the incredible need to prove himself, coupled with his physical skills (especially long range attacks) made yesterday possible. As cycling fans, I think we should be happy to have him - there is always something to see when he participates. For himself, I think in order to stay mentally healthy and not have some kind of major breakdown, I guess he needs professional support to channel his ambitions in a more sustainable way. Also, he needs to move away from SQS. I think he is more or less king there and does not have people around him that can really teach him how to be and do better (e.g. training, food, tactics). When your DS is Lodewyck, who never was anywhere near world class, you know that it's easy for Evenepoel to disregard his advice on racing (like yesterday "do nothing, no breakaways").

I was looking forward Pog Remco LBL battle, but it wasn't meant to happen.
Next up is Il Lombardia.
Remco vs Pog vs MvdP spring classics and monuments would be great.

 

[wickedw]

too long didn't read.

You said he should do something boring, but he did something spectacular instead. Your advice was ridiculous and proven wrong less than 24 hours later. Almeida did something boring because that's all he's capable of.

Actually I argued quite the opposite, which I guess you missed.

I argued in earlier posts that he shouldn't have phoned it in, which was the only comparison made with Almeida, and then go all out in attack which would have been truly spectacular.

Also if he feels better today what stops him from doing something spectacular even if he was just on 8-10 min behind? Let Remco ride like Remco instead of this "defensive" talk we've been hearing for 2 weeks. If he fails then he tried, if he doesn't then it is actually spectacular. Letting jumbo dictate the race all the time is suicide anyway.

 

[Red Rick]

Season too long, really? He has fewer race days than last year. And fewer than his competition.

Peak can be too long though. Like San Sebastian and Worlds was probalby too much for Evenepoel, who doesn't have the natural base level of some other riders who can compete hard in a GT at 95%. Especially if he put on weight for the Worlds ITT that's pretty suicidal for the Vuelta, as well as weird considering how he crushed the Vuelta ITT last year.

One thing we don't really know much about IMO is how hard riders train to reach a certain level, and how that affects their recovery down the line. I would bet that none of Roglic, Kuss or Vingegaard were doing 7-8 hour training rides in the mountains before their main GT targets.

 

[Ulle97]

A man who has come in 2nd at the TDF, and whom he had on a tow rope for hours while his lead to the peloton only grew.

And this debate is about whether he could deal with HC climbs, not whether he has already won an HC MTF from the front group. If you still don't think it's going to happen, I can't help you, I guess it just requires a modicum of imagination.

Bardet podiumed 6 years ago. He's not that rider anymore.

I'd love to see Remco smash it against the GC favourites consistently on the climbs. However, my personal opinion is that this route is too mountainous for him.... I think he can handle some stages in the mountains but the volume of climbs in this Vuelta is just too much for him. Also, the route is not evenly balanced between TT mms and the amount of climbs.

There's an argument to be made that he should assess the routes of the 3 Grand Tours when they are announced in the winter and pick the one that suits him best.
However, there appears to be a big desire to go to the Tour next year irrespective of the parcours.

 

[stekelegel]

Each rider is different, some can reach top level without to much prep (Pog would have won the tour without Vinge), some need months. Some riders keep peak a lot longer, some decline fast.
Remco wants to win above all. Be the best. Once they told him he probably would not make it at Anderlecht, he switched teams. Tried his best for a year, realized that he would just be some ordinary pro soccer player, just quit altogether and became a cyclist. That’s the good and bad in one person.
He realized could not win the vuelta gc and for me I think this caused him to shut down completely. he didn’t look Friday that he cruised up tourmalet, he looked even more knackered then the rest. But the basic condition was and is good so he easily dominated the field except for the top 5 probably. Fun to watch, great rider, but to win a grand tour vs the very best he needs to learn to win ugly….

 

[Barkintheeye]

I was looking forward Pog Remco LBL battle, but it wasn't meant to happen.
Next up is Il Lombardia.
Remco vs Pog vs MvdP spring classics and monuments would be great.

We have seen Remco up against MVDP, Pog and WVA and he didn’t fare well. I give him very small chances of success at Lombardua, RVV, P-R and Strade Bianche. A tad better odds at MSR and his best chances at LBL, Flèche Wallone and GW.

 

[Blanco]

Pog vs Remco Il Lombardia, can't wait for the battle.

Will be won by Roglic...

 

[groogster]

After what I saw from Evenepoel yesterday i'm all in into his fan club!! Love it, what a ******* legend!! Chapeau Evenepoel, chapeau!

 

[proffate]

Actually I argued quite the opposite, which I guess you missed.

I argued in earlier posts that he shouldn't have phoned it in, which was the only comparison made with Almeida, and then go all out in attack which would have been truly spectacular.

Thank you for the synopsis. You are right, if he could have taken 10 minutes (over one or more days) with all of JV *and* UAE chasing and without a "rest" day thrown in, that would have been even more legendary. However at some point it shifts from "legendary" to whatever word you want to use to describe the 90s --- extra-terrestrial? --- and at that point I stop enjoying the spectacle.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Signs of weakness today (yes i know he carried the breakaway, but a very good Remco can do that and still drop them) so I think he will have no chance on Angliru If he tries to go with the GC guys there.

 

[proffate]

Instead he chose to ease up, save himself for another day and to be in a position where breakaways would be allowed. Some would call it smart but for example Wout van Aert would never ride like that out of respect for his fans, race organizers, competitors and for himself.

You can't really believe his fans or anyone else felt dissed by this turn of events. Being a fan means supporting even through bad times, especially bad times that last just 24 hours. His fans were swiftly vindicated. Contrast with Pinot, whose fans waited an entire career and never got any satisfaction (at least not of the sporting variety, but maybe they cherish his fondness for animals).

Disrespect would be pulling a MAL.

 

[kn0s]

Signs of weakness today (yes i know he carried the breakaway, but a very good Remco can do that and still drop them) so I think he will have no chance on Angliru If he tries to go with the GC guys there.

Well he did work a little yesterday. So he is human, who would have thunk it...