Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Elos Anjos]

Noted. Close the door on the way out!

No need for being sour. There's a lot to debate but not if Remco is a match to the big boys in GT. Godspeed.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

This is just REMCO-GT-WASHING.
Notwithstanding his stage wins and other 2nd places what matters is that he didn't take up the GC battle because he realized that he would loose it and not take anything from it.
Some Remco fans see it a strategical choice that postpones the debate on the battle between him and the big boys.
The truth is that Remco just decided what to grab what he could and that it would be better than a 8-10th place. There cannot be any debate because Remco is not taylored as a GT rider with a proper course.

Remco completed to GT, he won one, failed GC in the other, in a way that has nothing to do with the route.
Can you infer that he will fail all his future GT bids?
No.
If he does it other 2/3 we have a pattern, but right now you are just using a data point that support your theory, and that's call confirmation bias

 

[memyselfandI]

fun fact: Remco squeezed more PCS points out of his 'disaster GC' Vuelta than any of the GC candidates or any other rider (675 just counting from the top of my head vs. e.g. Kuss around 605 and Vingegaard around 611).

With 2728 points he is 2nd in the ranking with Vingegaard (2715 PCS points) just trailing behind as 3rd, and only 26 points short of his stellar 2022 season.

The difference with Pogacar (2904 PCS points, ranked 1st) is still substantial (176 points), but also bridgeable if only Remco (or Vingegaard) shine at Lombardia (275 points for the winner) while Pogacar doesn't score too many points (all not very likely, but still).

Tbo teams and athletes are mostly looking after UCI-points and -ranking. They don't get nothing financial and operative benefits through PCS-ranking system no matter how nice tool it's in many ways.

Gaps between top dogs are different and wider in UCI-ranking than in PCS-ranking atm it looks.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Remco to domestique for Kuss at next Giro CONFIRMED

Landa's reaction to stealing his super-domestique:

 

[Hugh Januss]

1 trick pony? He has more diverse way of winning his 50 races than Pogacar has. Even more diverse type of races.

I was speaking only in terms of his physical tools. What Remco can do is put out a lot of power over a long period of time, but ask him to make repeated accelerations and he's out the back like WC road race. He has learned to sprint a lot better but it seems like he is good for about one real acceleration per climb. Put him is a race with Pogacar and Vingegaard and or Roglic and the only way he has of coping is to go to the front and set a fast enough pace that nobody can/wants to attack him. Yes he has been able to use his exceptional power output to win a range of races as long as he can impose his will, but I don't really consider him to be that versatile.

 

[Sciatic]

This is just REMCO-GT-WASHING.
Notwithstanding his stage wins and other 2nd places what matters is that he didn't take up the GC battle because he realized that he would loose it and not take anything from it.
Some Remco fans see it a strategical choice that postpones the debate on the battle between him and the big boys.
The truth is that Remco just decided what to grab what he could and that it would be better than a 8-10th place. There cannot be any debate because Remco is not taylored as a GT rider with a proper course.

Many of us (I think) think a “proper course” is a GT that has several high-mountain stage including at least one queen stage that includes a couple of HC climbs and 1-3 Cat 1s.

Do you a course well suited to his characteristics as a rider. (lots of TT kms, some classics-like stages, and whatever else)?

 

[Elos Anjos]

Many of us (I think) think a “proper course” is a GT that has several high-mountain stage including at least one queen stage that includes a couple of HC climbs and 1-3 Cat 1s.

Do you a course well suited to his characteristics as a rider. (lots of TT kms, some classics-like stages, and whatever else)?

I didn't understand the last question.

Of course Remco could win a course suited to his abilities....three stages with more than 50km flat TTs. But he's far from holding up in the high mountains like Indurain did.

 

[Sciatic]

I didn't understand the last question.

Of course Remco could win a course suited to his abilities....three stages with more than 50km flat TTs. But he's far from holding up in the high mountains like Indurain did.

My bad; it was supposed to say, “do you mean a course . . “

 

[Elos Anjos]

My bad; it was supposed to say, “do you mean a course . . “

The point is that the late pool of GT riders are those who excel in the mountains and can hold up in TTs whilst before the split between TTers and climbers was more pronounced.

 

[Extinction]

There is literally 0 drama there. Any team manager would want Evenepoel in their team.

It would be drama if someone asked Plugge "Would you like to have Evenepoel in your team?" and if he then said "No absolutely not in no way do I want to work with Evenepoel".

Not in the current standings. He collapsed, which Plugge stated he'd like to talk to Remco as to why. Does this mean Plugge thinks his talent isn't optimized at Soudal? Does he think Remco would be served better, as others have thought, at Ineos? Thus the dramma continues. And how precisely would Remco fit in at Jumbo, given that Plugge stated he'd like to "work with him"!?

 

[FroomeWagon]

Not in the current standings. He collapsed, which Plugge stated he'd like to talk to Remco as to why. Does this mean Plugge thinks his talent isn't optimized at Soudal? Does he think Remco would be served better, as others have thought, at Ineos? Thus the dramma continues. And how precisely would Remco fit in at Jumbo, given that Plugge stated he'd like to "work with him"!?

I read that quote as well and thought it was strange. In the USA, that might be considered a form of "tampering" (ie trying to convince someone under contract to join your team as you could help them better than their current team can). I don't know if this is ok in cycling or not?

He'd go on to claim the mountain classification in addition to three stage wins, while Plugge said he'd love to talk to Evenepoel to figure out what happened on the Tourmalet, while also opining that – in spite of his 2022 Vuelta win – he hasn't yet beaten top-level competition in a Grand Tour.

"In Barcelona, I took Ayuso, Almeida, Mas, Thomas, and Arensman into account. And Evenepoel, of course. The fact that he cracked on the Tourmalet simplified things," he said.

"I would love to work with him and talk about that. Then we might be able to formulate an answer. But I won't talk about that now.

"Evenepoel is one of the big stars of cycling and certainly the best one-day racer around. But we don't yet know how he'll do in a Grand Tour with tough competition. Last year he won the Vuelta but Roglič dropped out.

"He'll also have to prove it against the Vinegegaards and Pogačars of this world. I sincerely hope he can continue to build on this foundation, though a three-week Grand Tour is something very unique. History has shown this many times."

 

[Extinction]

I read that quote as well and thought it was strange. In the USA, that might be considered a form of "tampering" (ie trying to convince someone under contract to join your team as you could help them better than their current team can). I don't know if this is ok in cycling or not?

It's talk, which anyone has the right to do, but it's weird coming from a guy who swept all three GTs and the Vuelta podium, with his weakest rider winning!

 

[Extinction]

I was speaking only in terms of his physical tools. What Remco can do is put out a lot of power over a long period of time, but ask him to make repeated accelerations and he's out the back like WC road race. He has learned to sprint a lot better but it seems like he is good for about one real acceleration per climb. Put him is a race with Pogacar and Vingegaard and or Roglic and the only way he has of coping is to go to the front and set a fast enough pace that nobody can/wants to attack him. Yes he has been able to use his exceptional power output to win a range of races as long as he can impose his will, but I don't really consider him to be that versatile.

The serious attacks come from the front, when the domestiques are done. Vingegaard, Roglic, Pogacar don't make repeated attacks, but do so only when they can kill their opponents. Remco needs to be in the final showdown, which thus far has eluded him.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

The battle didn't happen because Remco didn't even manage to show up. There's no debate either.
Roglic won two Vueltas with 3 stages in each without a perfect preparation.
Pogacar was 3rd with 3 stages when he was 20.
All these excuses are really becoming annoying. When will (some) Remco fans start facing reality? Mourn your "GT rider" and move on.

I'm sorry... please remind me when Primoz faced a team like JV especially at La Vuelta? It's not like he was going against prime Team Sky either

2021
Primoz
Enric Mas
Jack Haig

2020
Primoz
Carapaz
Hugh Carthy

2019
Primoz
Valverde
20 year old Tadej

It's not like Primoz faced anything like what Remco was facing. Nobody suggested that Remco was a dominant GC talent.

I do find it strange to just admonish a 23 year old because they didn't have an optimal race.

He's stated 4 GT races.
2021 Giro He rushed to quickly after his horrific crash at Lombardia
2022 Vuelta He won
2023 Giro- left with Covid while leading
2023 Vuelta - Was 12th also intentionally gave up loads of time on multiple days. Won 3 stages and certainly could have won 5 or even 6 with a bit more luck,

Maybe wait until he's completed a few more tours before writing him off.

 

[Bolder]

If he can develop a decent sprint, surely he can learn how to handle a climb with several accelerations. The main issue I see is that he doesn't have a good enough team. A veteran, strong team with a DS who knows how to win GTs can guide a developing rider through tricky strategic situations or subpar days.

Not saying he would have won the Vuelta but his mystery jour sans on the Aubisque/Spandelles/Tourmalet stage might have been handled differently or minimized. Because he was strong as an ox on the remaining stages. If he had kept his losses to 5 minutes he might have been able to disrupt Jumbo enough to force them to sacrifice Kuss or even Roglic.

 

[houtdffan]

I was speaking only in terms of his physical tools. What Remco can do is put out a lot of power over a long period of time, but ask him to make repeated accelerations and he's out the back like WC road race. He has learned to sprint a lot better but it seems like he is good for about one real acceleration per climb. Put him is a race with Pogacar and Vingegaard and or Roglic and the only way he has of coping is to go to the front and set a fast enough pace that nobody can/wants to attack him. Yes he has been able to use his exceptional power output to win a range of races as long as he can impose his will, but I don't really consider him to be that versatile.

Yep. That's why he need sot ignore knuckleheads like Horner and ride exactly that way. It's how he put Rog behind the 8 ball last year in the first week, and how he needs t race the tour next year.

Even Vingegaard said they planned to attack on stage 8 this year, but simply couldn't due to Remco's pace

Remco wins when he dictates the pace. He loses when he reacts

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yep. That's why he need sot ignore knuckleheads like Horner and ride exactly that way. It's how he put Rog behind the 8 ball last year in the first week, and how he needs t race the tour next year.

Even Vingegaard said they planned to attack on stage 8 this year, but simply couldn't due to Remco's pace

Remco wins when he dictates the pace. He loses when he reacts

I don't believe that Remco is strong enough to "dictate the pace" for three full weeks against Vingegaard, Pogacar, or even Roglic in the form he was in this year.

 

[proffate]

The battle didn't happen because Remco didn't even manage to show up. There's no debate either.
Roglic won two Vueltas with 3 stages in each without a perfect preparation.
Pogacar was 3rd with 3 stages when he was 20.
All these excuses are really becoming annoying. When will (some) Remco fans start facing reality? Mourn your "GT rider" and move on.

Roglic has always shown up with the most overpowered team imaginable, with one or more (future) GT winners as his domestiques. So yea, not really apples to apples. But why not like both riders inasmuch as they let their legs do the talking? (neither one of them being very adept with their words or gesticulations of victory)

Anyway as a part-time Remco fan I would rather he stop wasting time on GCs because that's just a very boring pastime that will take away from the more entertaining ways he could be spending his time. If this "reality" you speak of is the universe where Remco becomes Thomas de Gendt x 10 I'm more than ok with that.

 

[Oldermanish]

I was speaking only in terms of his physical tools. What Remco can do is put out a lot of power over a long period of time, but ask him to make repeated accelerations and he's out the back like WC road race. He has learned to sprint a lot better but it seems like he is good for about one real acceleration per climb. Put him is a race with Pogacar and Vingegaard and or Roglic and the only way he has of coping is to go to the front and set a fast enough pace that nobody can/wants to attack him. Yes he has been able to use his exceptional power output to win a range of races as long as he can impose his will, but I don't really consider him to be that versatile.

Adding on to that, IMO most strategies to deal with him are to attack more when there is a group to relay the aggression as well. His recovery isn't trained to respond to that yet and he doesn't have the choice on which attacking threat to deal with if he's behind all of them. Or seriously dropped. He can fix that but it will be a remake of his racing strengths if he makes GTs a priority. Not a deep secret.

 

[peterfin]

I don't believe that Remco is strong enough to "dictate the pace" for three full weeks against Vingegaard, Pogacar, or even Roglic in the form he was in this year.

Next year he will try and Landa will do most of the work.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Roglic has always shown up with the most overpowered team imaginable, with one or more (future) GT winners as his domestiques. So yea, not really apples to apples. But why not like both riders inasmuch as they let their legs do the talking? (neither one of them being very adept with their words or gesticulations of victory)

Anyway as a part-time Remco fan I would rather he stop wasting time on GCs because that's just a very boring pastime that will take away from the more entertaining ways he could be spending his time. If this "reality" you speak of is the universe where Remco becomes Thomas de Gendt x 10 I'm more than ok with that.

I "liked" your last point because I understand it takes strenght and focus to realize that you are not made in a certain way and crossing the path to reach it is a deviation from your nature. Remco just has to find himself and realize that he's very talented, but that doesn't mean he can win all sorts of races.

Peter Sagan famously said - I quote him from memory - that he did not want to be the next Merckx, he wanted to be the first Peter Sagan. And that's what Remco needs to hear: be yourself and not what they told you would become.

As for the first part, it's not even logical. Having a good or bad team does not have a bearing on either you collapse in a multiple high-mountain stage.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I'm sorry... please remind me when Primoz faced a team like JV especially at La Vuelta? It's not like he was going against prime Team Sky either

2021
Primoz
Enric Mas
Jack Haig

2020
Primoz
Carapaz
Hugh Carthy

2019
Primoz
Valverde
20 year old Tadej

It's not like Primoz faced anything like what Remco was facing. Nobody suggested that Remco was a dominant GC talent.

I do find it strange to just admonish a 23 year old because they didn't have an optimal race.

He's stated 4 GT races.
2021 Giro He rushed to quickly after his horrific crash at Lombardia
2022 Vuelta He won
2023 Giro- left with Covid while leading
2023 Vuelta - Was 12th also intentionally gave up loads of time on multiple days. Won 3 stages and certainly could have won 5 or even 6 with a bit more luck,

Maybe wait until he's completed a few more tours before writing him off.

Remco's collapse was independent of the quality of the team he had to face.
Your whole argument can be advanced to the case of Mas. In the end it's about having the legs like Remco did not have.

 

[Berniece]

In the end it's about having the legs like Remco did not have.

Or the mental strength, we don't really know

 

[Extinction]

Or the mental strength, we don't really know

I'd say it was both, bad legs and he couldn't cope with it mentally, so he signed off.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Evenepoel's time trial got even better this year, while all his best climbing performances date back to 2022, from what (little) I can tell. Definitely leaning towards that.

Usually there's a tradeoff.

I get that he wanted to win the WC ITT badly, after last year's near miss and getting pretty close in 2019 already. But not sure if it was that great for his development as a possible future Tour de France contender.

One other issue I see is that he doesn't know when to drop. 2023 Javalambre, 2022 La Pandera. That's a bigger issue in a TDF context where teams have better climbing support / more riders who are on form.