The Role of TTTs in Stage Races

[cineteq]

Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone is as narrow-minded as you and would arrange the entire cycling rule book around whether it fits a certain rider or not.

Sorry to disappoint you, but your definition does not apply to me.

Narrow-minded: a biased or illiberal viewpoint; bigoted, intolerant, or prejudiced

 

[Cobblestoned]

The role is pretty! clear.

If practised and done properly, TTT is one of the most BEAUTIFUL things that cycling has to deliver.

9 men, gliding along the scenery, taking turns in perfection...and the only thing you can hear is wosh,wosh,wosh,wosh.

 

[Ferminal]

Last time I checked an individual cannot enter a stage-race without a team...

Alberto Contador 2009

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Alberto Contador 2009

Nah, Lance and his boys dragged Alberto round to a TTT win, thus unfairly gaining him an advantage over his GC rivals.

 

[El Pistolero]

That TTT had no impact on who won the race.

 

[Ferminal]

Nah, Lance and his boys dragged Alberto round to a TTT win, thus unfairly gaining him an advantage over his GC rivals.

Maybe they tried to drop him!

But if Alberto's team for the rest of the race was rather non-existant, and if we accept the hypothesis that teams are directly linked to a rider's time across the line (or shall we say, relative time) on road stages, it's a surprise how he was still able to outperform almost everyone on the important stages.

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

It means that the most they can offer him is help. They can't win the race for him however, nor will they stop him from winning by being poor, as he then just ignores them

In ttts on the other hand, its not help, its dependence. His entire fate is tied to them including his time.

With all due respect Hitch that's rubbish! Teams 'help' in many ways... Is it wrong for a team to pace a leader back after a mechanical or crash...? Isn't a leader 'dependent' on this?

Also surely GC riders like Wiggins, Cuddles or (in the past) Armstrong make a big difference with their own TTing strength! It's all swings and roundabouts in making the sport a spectacle... why else do we watch?

 

[The Hitch]

Nah, Lance and his boys dragged Alberto round to a TTT win, thus unfairly gaining him an advantage over his GC rivals.

Something I have argued before.

 

[The Hitch]

Also surely GC riders like Wiggins, Cadel or (in the past) Armstrong make a big difference with their own TTing strength! It's all swings and roundabouts in making the sport a spectacle... why else do we watch?

And Cadel should for example be making time on the likes of Basso with his tt strentgh.

Unfortuanately as we saw in the Giro, Basso is the one who goes into the mountains with the 1.30 advantage, when you use a ttt instead.

With all due respect Hitch that's rubbish! Teams 'help' in many ways... Is it wrong for a team to pace a leader back after a mechanical or crash...? Isn't a leader 'dependent' on this?

Not really. It helps them save a bit of energy (help, rather than dependancy) but non leaders with mechanicals make their way back to the peloton on their own. Same with those in a break. So I assume team leaders would not struggle with it.

 

[Nick C.]

Perhaps an example of a weak team would be Popovych in the 2004 Giro on the stage where half of Saeco went out on breaks with Cunego taking the pink and Popo alone chasing.
A strong one might be the Pyrenees in 2002 where Lance could have the DS control Heras, who was the strongest rider both days.
Not that it mattered but HTC, Columbia or whatever they were in 2009 singleteamedly created that break.

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

And Cadel should for example be making time on the likes of Basso with his tt strentgh.

Unfortuanately as we saw in the Giro, Basso is the one who goes into the mountains with the 1.30 advantage, when you use a ttt instead.

Evans definitely made a big difference pulling BMC to a decent time in the TTT in this year's Tour and obviously just wasn't strong enough to win that Giro! I'm sure we could both waste hours coming up with pointless examples to support our views without convincing each other...

Not really. It helps them save a bit of energy (help, rather than dependancy) but non leaders with mechanicals make their way back to the peloton on their own. Same with those in a break. So I assume team leaders would not struggle with it.

Even if it does only save energy that still effects the final outcome! Energy that helps in attacks/defence later on... and that's the difference. Help or dependency it's still about cause and effect!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Surely the point is that there are different disciplines in the sport! Isn't there an argument to say that TTTs make races more exciting... Yes, riders like Sammy Sanchez might suffer but then they have to chase or go for other goals (plus I'm sure many other teams would take him if he wanted to go to a new rounded squad)

So what you're saying is, it makes it more exciting because it removes overall contenders from contention entirely, thus meaning they have to go for other goals? How is that a good thing?

Personally I'd like to see more mountains and less flat and ITT (although I am a fan of mountain TTs) stages in GTs (more like the Giro than the Tour...) but that would make it one dimensional and boring for others. And what about the specialists? Nowhere to practice their skills!

It would also probably be boring in the mountains because the climbers don't have time to make up. This is why an ITT is best - with a TTT, a weak time triallist in a strong TTT team (say, Andy Schleck) suddenly rocks up with an advantage over a strong time triallist in a weak TTT team (say, Denis Menchov). All Andy does is hang on without ever taking a turn, and for that he gets himself a nice big advantage over other GC men who had to drag their teams kicking and screaming to the line (Vino, Menchov, and so on). If Andy has an advantage going into the mountains, we know he won't bring any entertainment. He doesn't have to.

Cycling is ultimately a team sport in many ways, so the strength of the team is shown in the other disciplines too. Cav needs his team to help him win, the climbers need theirs to help gain time in the mountains. As epic as it was A Schleck wouldn't have made it with his break to the Galibier without Monfort and to a much lesser degree Postuma. So how then is a TTT less fair when team support always changes races for good and bad...?

And as cycling is a team sport and the strength of the team is shown in the other disciplines, the guys with a strong team (remember the individual wins the race, not the team) are already advantaged enough without giving them a headstart.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Evans definitely made a big difference pulling BMC to a decent time in the TTT in this year's Tour and obviously just wasn't strong enough to win that Giro! I'm sure we could both waste hours coming up with pointless examples to support our views without convincing each other...

Evans wasn't strong enough to win that Giro, no, but he had a shockingly bad team. In that TTT, Ivan Basso didn't have to do a thing, he got a more or less free ride from his team, while Evans dragged a bunch of scrubs around, expending a lot of energy that Basso didn't have to, and still despite being a much stronger time triallist and doing much more work than Basso he rocks up with a big deficit. Fair? Not on your life.

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

Life isn't fair!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Life isn't fair!

Hardly a justification for making it even more so.

 

[The Hitch]

I'm sure we could both waste hours coming up with pointless examples to support our views without convincing each other...

Your examples don't necessarily support your arguments. If our argument is that there no correlation between a leaders tt skills and his ttt times, then you are not really challenging it by pointing out that sometimes good tters get good ttt times.

Moreover even if they did, all you are arguing is that a that a good itter can make a very slight contribution to his overall ttt tim, which is a very minor point, whereas are examples demonstrate that ttts can **** everything up.

And I think your argument a bit weird, because if you are arguing that ttts should be included, then you are rejecting "fairness" angle in fair of the "spectacle" one. So why then do you include a minor "fariness" point such as - but good itters can influence their tt times, as an argument in favour of the "spectacle".

Its like arguing that by unleashing a flood on a city we can keep the rooftops dry.

BTW Evasn would only able to drag his team if they were good enough to get dragged along.

Sometimes they can't even manage that, and you get Vino waving his arms helplessly at Štangelj, because not only can his team not set a pace for him, they can''t even keep up with him.

Life isn't fair!

That phrase is usually used to help people come to terms with a wrong that has been done on them, not to defend the wrong in the first place.

Hardly a justification for making it even more so.

I think you mean "even less so", or at least, thats what I would say.

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

Hardly a justification for making it even more so.

I'm not really trying to justify anything... I can give or take TTTs, I just think a lot of the arguments against are as flawed as you appear to believe the ones for.

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

Hitch I could say your arguments are weird too. I doubt you'd ever accept anything against your own opinion anyway. It would be nice to keep the roof dry though... give you something to sit on while you wait to be rescued!

 

[cineteq]

Evans wasn't strong enough to win that Giro, no, but he had a shockingly bad team. In that TTT, Ivan Basso didn't have to do a thing, he got a more or less free ride from his team, while Evans dragged a bunch of scrubs around, expending a lot of energy that Basso didn't have to, and still despite being a much stronger time triallist and doing much more work than Basso he rocks up with a big deficit. Fair? Not on your life.

Yes it was fair, because he needed a good team and he knew that. TTTs are part of the race, and riders know in advanced what to expect, thus they should come physically and tactically prepared to overcome that hurdle.

 

[Another_Dutch_Guy]

I truly agree that including TTT's is not totally fair. However, I think the team sponsors are very eager towars these. I believe that in these times of defaulting teams it's not such a bad thing

 

[The Hitch]

Hitch I could say your arguments are weird too. I doubt you'd ever accept anything against your own opinion anyway. It would be nice to keep the roof dry though... give you something to sit on while you wait to be rescued!

I didn't mean it in an offensive way, apologies if thats how it came out. nor am I not open to counter arguments.

My point was that if you are arguing that the spectacle and shakeup of ttts is more important than the fairness of the overall race, then I don't see why you would mention the itt ttt correlation as a +.

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

I didn't mean it in an offensive way, apologies if thats how it came out. nor am I not open to counter arguments.

My point was that if you are arguing that the spectacle and shakeup of ttts is more important than the fairness of the overall race, then I don't see why you would mention the itt ttt correlation as a +.

Thanks Hitch. No offense taken. I actually do see your point but I have enjoyed watching TTTs in the GTs and they don't necessarily have a detrimental effect on the racing. That's all I can say really. I guess I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

 

[ferryman]

I truly agree that including TTT's is not totally fair. However, I think the team sponsors are very eager towars these. I believe that in these times of defaulting teams it's not such a bad thing

I think I'm in a small minority here in that I don't have a problem with the TTT. In fact if truth be told I like them. I agree it isn't necesssarily totally fair on some riders but on the other hand it is a team race so why not? Is 100K of flat ITT fair for pure climbers like the Schlecks? No. Is 6 mountain top finishes fair for guys like Evans or Wiggins? No. I really don't understand why it is not possible for race designers to come up with a happy compromise for the GC. A prologue, a longish flat ITT, a hilly ITT and 3-4 MTP finishes.

Although, I would add Contador wins regardless

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think I'm in a small minority here in that I don't have a problem with the TTT. In fact if truth be told I like them. I agree it isn't necesssarily totally fair on some riders but on the other hand it is a team race so why not? Is 100K of flat ITT fair for pure climbers like the Schlecks? No. Is 6 mountain top finishes fair for guys like Evans or Wiggins? No. I really don't understand why it is not possible for race designers to come up with a happy compromise for the GC. A prologue, a longish flat ITT, a hilly ITT and 3-4 MTP finishes.

Although, I would add Contador wins regardless

100k of flat ITT is unfair for Schleck, and 6 MTFs is unfair for Martin, but they will at least have the control of their own destiny there. It isn't like Vino dropping his whole team and not being given his own time but that of some random domestique who couldn't handle the pace.

It's not that difficult to find a relatively balanced parcours (i.e. not the 2011 Giro or 2012 Tour) without resorting to the cheap gimmickry of the TTT.

If they really want to throw some variety in there, then we see a TTT in at least 2 of the GTs every year, is that really 'varied'? Give us a 'cross stage or a madison or something. It'll be no less fair.

 

[ferryman]

100k of flat ITT is unfair for Schleck, and 6 MTFs is unfair for Martin, but they will at least have the control of their own destiny there. It isn't like Vino dropping his whole team and not being given his own time but that of some random domestique who couldn't handle the pace.

It's not that difficult to find a relatively balanced parcours (i.e. not the 2011 Giro or 2012 Tour) without resorting to the cheap gimmickry of the TTT.

If they really want to throw some variety in there, then we see a TTT in at least 2 of the GTs every year, is that really 'varied'? Give us a 'cross stage or a madison or something. It'll be no less fair.

I'm not going to get into a debate about a TTT as I don't think I would win on here and I really don't feel that strongly about it. But some of your points are flawed in my opinion. The beauty of the TTT for me is the team work and timing with each guy doing his bit until he is dropped. Vino dropping his team is the antipahy of this. A team train is a train whether it is in the mountains, for a sprint or....a TTT. The random domestiques as you put it are there for one reason. Just so happens in a TTT they have to stay with (or in the case of the climbers who are team leaders) put their GC guy in as good as a position as possible. Where's the cheap gimmickry in that?