The Sky-Con-O-Meter. Predictions on how much more ridiculous they can get

[Ferminal]

9. [RUS] MENCHOV Denis KAT 50"
26. [KAZ] VINOKOUROV Alexandre AST 02'17"
27. [ESP] VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro MOV 02'19"

 

[thehog]

9. [RUS] MENCHOV Denis KAT 50"
26. [KAZ] VINOKOUROV Alexandre AST 02'17"
27. [ESP] VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro MOV 02'19"

Yeah but all those guys are dopers so it doesn't count

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

9. [RUS] MENCHOV Denis KAT 50"
26. [KAZ] VINOKOUROV Alexandre AST 02'17"
27. [ESP] VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro MOV 02'19"

Vino's past it and Valverde was saving himself for the Vuelta. When he did go for it in the Tour, he won a mountain stage without appearing unduly distressed.

You might have a case with Menchov, though there were a lot of riders between Wiggo/Froome and him, suggesting it's Menchov underperforming rather than anything particularly special from the Sky guys.

And you still need to show that Menchov was losing time whilst there were 4 Sky guys at the front. I would imagine that he dropped off the leaders' pace after Porte and Rogers did, so he was "down the road" behind 2 Sky guys rather than 4. And you also need to show he was suffering like an animal rather than pacing himself through.

I'm not disputing that collectively the Sky performance was at least "eyebrow-raising" but even so, I think Libertine's comment about 4 Sky guys putting time into GT winners who were suffering like animals is more hyperbole rather than being actually true in a meaningful sense. (Vino might be a GT winner, but he's not been a contender for years, so him being slower than Wiggo et al is not really relevant.)

If Libertine had simply observed that we can't unsee Wiggo's transformation from autobus-fodder to being a largely untroubled Tour winner, I wouldn't have needed to comment. Even so, it's only because Libertine is usually so precise that I commented. (Even now, I have a nagging fear that he will provide links to YouTube of half a dozen occasions of Froome, Porte, Rogers and Wiggo "dishing it out" to a trail group of GT podium gliterati!) Had Hog made the comment, I wouldn't have bothered, as we all expect his posts to be hyperbolic rather than rigorous.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

btw personally i hope it will be Quintana not Pinot making that top step. Of course one thing Quintana has in his favour is the perception that Colombians, who were a force in the 80's fell off in the 90's because of doping. Not entirely true that Colombians didnt dope, but the perception is there that they didnt have the same access, and will increase if him and maybe Chavez start to compete for the Tour after some limits on doping have been placed.

Also Quintana is from Boyaca where the highest Tour de France peaks would be considered lowlands, so perfectly explainable natural advantages would be far more persuasive explanations than the traditional go to argument accross all sports when doping is suggested - we train hard.

I am not hugely familiar with Quintana but he can certainly climb very well, as can Uran and Henao who I am more familiar with thanks to seeing this years Vuelta and Lombardia from a Sky focussed perspective and I would be pleased to see any of them develop into a true GT prospect.

I would like to know though if you credit Chris Froome with the same perfectly explainable natural advantages as the Colombians after being born and raised at altitude in Kenya and spending his childhood riding around the Great Rift Valley (also known as the cradle of Kenyan distance running)?

I'm not actually asking you to say anything about whether you think he's doping here, I'm just interested in your viewpoint in his case on potential natural adaptations.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

How is this thread any different from the Sky thread?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Just to answer Wallace:
* Basso
* F. Schleck
* Sammy Sanchez
* Dan Martin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4REDeSh5LoU

From minute 24 onwards, just sickening to see, EPO sprinting uphill. Rogers freewheeling past Scarponi after pulling for 3k's on the front. Laughable stuff.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Just to answer Wallace:
* Basso
* F. Schleck
* Sammy Sanchez
* Dan Martin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4REDeSh5LoU

From minute 24 onwards, just sickening to see, EPO sprinting uphill. Rogers freewheeling past Scarponi after pulling for 3k's on the front. Laughable stuff.

Sorry. I'd missed Frank, Sammy and Dan winning GTs. Basso was kaput from the Giro and realistically is past it anyway.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Funny how Cancellara was also able to drop a lot of these former GT winners. Of course, you will no doubt say he was doping and has advance warnings as well (even though being in yellow he gets tested anyway) but if these other riders e.g. Basso and Scarponi were really in form is this something you would be expecting?

20. Fabian CANCELLARA, RadioShack-Nissan, at 1:52
22. Jurgen VAN DEN BROECK, Lotto-Belisol, at 1:52
23. Rui Alberto FARIA DA COSTA, Movistar, at 1:52
24. Thomas VOECKLER, Europcar, at 2:05
25. Michele SCARPONI, Lampre-ISD, at 2:05
26. Alexandr VINOKUROV, Astana, at 2:17
29. Bauke MOLLEMA, Rabobank, at 2:19
30. Christopher HORNER, RadioShack-Nissan, at 2:19
32. Andreas KLÖDEN, RadioShack-Nissan, at 2:19
37. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at 2:53
40. Ivan BASSO, Liquigas-Cannondale, at 2:53

 

[Benotti69]

Sorry. I'd missed Frank, Sammy and Dan winning GTs. Basso was kaput from the Giro and realistically is past it anyway.

Maybe if Basso was riding for Sky with 'Margianl Gains' administered by Leinders he wouldn't have been past it!

Basso and Evans are the same age!

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Basso and Evans are the same age!

That's a very good point because everyone who is the same age reacts in exactly the same way to getting older.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Joke Poster

I am not hugely familiar with Quintana but he can certainly climb very well, as can Uran and Henao who I am more familiar with thanks to seeing this years Vuelta and Lombardia from a Sky focussed perspective and I would be pleased to see any of them develop into a true GT prospect.

I would like to know though if you credit Chris Froome with the same perfectly explainable natural advantages as the Colombians after being born and raised at altitude in Kenya and spending his childhood riding around the Great Rift Valley (also known as the cradle of Kenyan distance running)?

I'm not actually asking you to say anything about whether you think he's doping here, I'm just interested in your viewpoint in his case on potential natural adaptations.

Wow - for someone who has just started following cycling - which you continue to point out to us - and read and re-read a thread you are a quick learner. I see from this post you are doing some Froome Propaganda...why not go read the Froome thread for our opinions on him.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Sorry. I'd missed Frank, Sammy and Dan winning GTs. Basso was kaput from the Giro and realistically is past it anyway.

You Sky boys make me laugh, thanks for that. Climber Sammy being dropped like a skoolboy doesn't say anything to guys like u? Please, do me a favour and come back when you watch cycling for more than 3 years.

Everyone in the front group apart from the two Sky ET's cracked in the Tour.

I would like to know though if you credit Chris Froome with the same perfectly explainable natural advantages as the Colombians after being born and raised at altitude in Kenya and spending his childhood riding around the Great Rift Valley (also known as the cradle of Kenyan distance running)?

Didn't know Johannesburg was at high altitude, thanks for the lesson.

Or do you consider 1700 metres enough to call high altitude like in Colombia?

Apples et oranges.

 

[Benotti69]

That's a very good point because everyone who is the same age reacts in exactly the same way to getting older.

Basso is not past it in my opinion. He is not prepared to take the bigger doping risks he needs to win.

Did Evans? Yes.

Did Wiggins? Yes undoubtedly in my mind he did with the help of UCI, ASO, Leinders and EPO.

The you bring up age in a GT is good because I might just take this opportunity to remind you that there are few who have have won their 1st GT at 32 and not shown GT potential from and early age. That ability to not show then win it late in a career has been due to doping

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Climber Sammy being dropped like a skoolboy doesn't say anything to guys like u?

I says to me that you haven't actually read what I've posted. Libertine's comment was about GT winners trailing the Sky guys. Sanchez is not a GT winner and is therefore irrelevant to my point. (My point was the rigor - or lack thereof - of Libertine's original claim that I quoted in bold.)

Please, do me a favour and come back when you watch cycling for more than 3 years.

I've been watching cycling since 1984. My first heros were Sean Kelly and some Amercan guy who name you dishonour by being such a tw*t.

 

[will10]

I would like to know though if you credit Chris Froome with the same perfectly explainable natural advantages as the Colombians after being born and raised at altitude in Kenya and spending his childhood riding around the Great Rift Valley (also known as the cradle of Kenyan distance running)?

I'm not actually asking you to say anything about whether you think he's doping here, I'm just interested in your viewpoint in his case on potential natural adaptations.

Can you remember what else the Kenyan distance runners are widely known for?

 

[SundayRider]

I think that its possible to win the TDF clean. Ironically id look to some of the guys who have doped as the best able to do it. I think Contador could win the Tour clean if the Tour is cleaner. I think Basso could have done it. but these are once in a generation talents who achieved amazing results when doped (so even if you took away a big layer for doping you might - and i use the word might, be left with something)

Then there are people who were fighting for previous Tours, so Sastre or Evans, who in theory stay the same while others decline, due to doping becoming less of a force. But that is of course making the assumption that they are clean (and i dont think either Evans nor Sastre were).

Its a bit harder to make a case for someone who struggled greatly with climbing and stage races, that they could accomplish the astonishing achievement of not just winning the Tour but winning it clean.

So if Wiggins is clean, then what do you think would one get if one added the doping layer to Wiggins? Hed be winning the 40k tts by the same margins Indurain was winning the 60k ones, and thats assuming hes a poor responder. Wortking off the fact that he was a minute behind Contador on Verbier then if you add a(/another) doping layer to Wiggins thered be no climb in the Tour de France he couldnt challenge the record for. In short if you assume Wiggins 2012 isnt on a doping programme and you put him on one, he would be better than any doper ever (indurain lance pantani contador basso ullrich vino, none of them could touch him)

Great post. If Wiggo was not doped in 2012, what would we get if he was TTing at 500watts average @ 69 Kg?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I says to me that you haven't actually read what I've posted. Libertine's comment was about GT winners trailing the Sky guys. Sanchez is not a GT winner and is therefore irrelevant to my point. (My point was the rigor - or lack thereof - of Libertine's original claim that I quoted in bold.)

If you want to play wordgames you are on the wrong adress. Do explain to me why known climbers are suddenly outclimbed by former grupetto Englishmen. That's no marginail gain, that is 10 maybe 20 percent gain. How do whe get a 20% performance gain?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

If you want to play wordgames you are on the wrong adress. Do explain to me why known climbers are suddenly outclimbed by former grupetto Englishmen. That's no marginail gain, that is 10 maybe 20 percent gain. How do whe get a 20% performance gain?

"By training hardert than the rest" /Lance Armstrong/Bradley Wiggins

 

[Dear Wiggo]

"By training hardert than the rest" /Lance Armstrong/Bradley Wiggins

And training harder than you race, then focusing only on racing to win, not racing for training. - Wiggins and Sky's PR, 2012.

 

[Mellow Velo]

"By training hardert than the rest" /Lance Armstrong/Bradley Wiggins

And training harder than you race, then focusing only on racing to win, not racing for training. - Wiggins and Sky's PR, 2012.

Definitely not /Lance Armstrong, then.

 

[The Hitch]

Vino's past it and Valverde was saving himself for the Vuelta. When he did go for it in the Tour, he won a mountain stage without appearing unduly distressed.
s.

Id agree that menchovs past it and basso can't be counted because.he did the giro ( same for.scarponi)

Valverde however was not.originally saving himself for.the vuelta. He wanted to.challenge for the tour. He only began saving himself for a stage win after he had lost too much time.

I think i recall though that he had a few crashes so maybe that did affect.him

I am not hugely familiar with Quintana but he can certainly climb very well, as can Uran and Henao who I am more familiar with thanks to seeing this years Vuelta and Lombardia from a Sky focussed perspective and I would be pleased to see any of them develop into a true GT prospect.

I would like to know though if you credit Chris Froome with the same perfectly explainable natural advantages as the Colombians after being born and raised at altitude in Kenya and spending his childhood riding around the Great Rift Valley (also known as the cradle of Kenyan distance running)?

I'm not actually asking you to say anything about whether you think he's doping here, I'm just interested in your viewpoint in his case on potential natural adaptations.

If you watched the vuelta you.would have seen.quintana. He was valverdes helper who stayed with contador rodriguez and valverde on the mountain stages when everyone else was 10 minutes.down the mountain


Im not.familiar with the topography of Kenya but if froome grew up at similar altitudes then yes he could also possess these natural advantages.

im not saying these natural advantages are a great explanation btw, just that the perception would exist.

Doesn't mean they are clean but since you are asking if people will accuse future winners of doping, the idea that 5 foot 5 escrabajos who grow up on.bicycles and mountain race scenes, where cycling is the 2nd sport, at 2500m.altitudes are as natural winners of mountain races as one can get, would be a powerful argument in their favour.

Of course another thing that quintana or henao uran chavez etc have going for them.that froome doesn't, is what you mentioned with pinot earlier, that their insane climbing skills are already there at an early age.

 

[Ferminal]

I'd say the fact that Quintana showed enormous potential as a 19/20 year old is more important than where he's from.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

"By training hardert than the rest" /Lance Armstrong/Bradley Wiggins

Sorry, I forgot about that, my bad

Or, it could also be THE OTHERS have become lazy c@nts and are riding/training at perhaps 70%!

 

[D-Queued]

And training harder than you race, then focusing only on racing to win, not racing for training. - Wiggins and Sky's PR, 2012.

This just cracks me up.

Why would you give it your all in an actual race?

Remember this children, never give it 100%, nor reach for new levels, during an actual competition.

Dave.

 

[del1962]

I think the point is that if you are sitting in the middle of the peloton of a flattish day of a stage race all day, you are actually working less hard than on a training day.