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The Tour de France...the Armstrong vs. Contador show

Page 4 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jun 16, 2009
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Amsterhammer said:
Now this is an anti-Lance post that I can respect, since it isn't only full of vicious hatred. I agree with a number of your points too, especially the last one. I would have preferred it if he had stayed retired.

Kindly explain the following in simple, factual terms to an ignorant, old, fake fan, Lance tea-bagger with failing memory :D

How exactly did he get away with those six positives? And please, no supposition, no opinion, hit me with verifiable facts.

it was cream which contained steroids in it. armstrong had a prescription for it so his positives didn't count as they weren't really performance enhancing. well that's what they said. i bet he got the prescription from DR Ferrari.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
Lance winning tour for an 8th time = A lot of life long, year long fans having a huge negative reaction. The final nail in their coffins, maybe.

Lance gets caught doping = Vindication for the realists. The final nail in the fanboy coffin. Cycling finally gets to move on and maybe clean up it's act. (but it'll never happen)

Out of interest, I wonder who will get to wear the Astana number 1 jersey: Designated team leader, Contador, or self-appointed to the team and self appointed team leader, Armstrong?

it will probably be alphabetical astana seems to be very much into the alphabet nowadays;)
 
Apr 19, 2009
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I think we need to use the correct terminology here....


There are 6 "A" samples that were found to be non-negative......due to the lack of sufficient "B" samples for testing for EPO the samples were never tested and aa official "positive" could not be declared

Technically he tested positive but because of the process for declaring an official positive requires both samples to be found non-negative for a "positive" to be declared.

So, technically Armstrong never tested "positive" for ePO for those 6 samples.
 
Jun 17, 2009
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And do you not also believe that the people involved in those tests (journalists) had a vested interest in finding LA positive and therefore the samples were tampered with and there would be no way proving innocence either
 
Jun 17, 2009
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I will **** my pants laughing if Armstrong wins No 8 and rides away from Contador et al in the mountains and TT's. I am certainly not the greatest fan of LA but he won 7 tours and a Worlds and according to these forums everyone else was doped so he had no advantage.

Armstrong winning 7 tours has only mad the tour a bit dull over that period nothing else.
 
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neil69cyclist said:
And do you not also believe that the people involved in those tests (journalists) had a vested interest in finding LA positive and therefore the samples were tampered with and there would be no way proving innocence either

The journalists had nothing to do with the tests. The tests were performed well before any journalist came along an put the numbers together, so your assertion is baseless and ignorant. Also note that Mr Armstrong gave the OK to release the control numbers for the tests so that the journalists could link the tests with the rider who provided the sample. (OK, it was under false pretense, but it is still sweet justice to me.)

It is of little surprise that those of you who defend Mr Armstrong are ignorant of the actual facts surrounding the 6 positives. The biggest of those being that there was synthetic EPO in said samples.
 
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neil69cyclist said:
You guys make it toooooo easy !!!

Imagine that, an Armstrong fanboy with delusions of grandeur. Who would'a thunk that?
 
May 14, 2009
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neil69cyclist said:
And do you not also believe that the people involved in those tests (journalists) had a vested interest in finding LA positive and therefore the samples were tampered with and there would be no way proving innocence either
If you have already read the Ashenden interview, you know now that it's quasi impossible to tamper a sample with EPO.

Besides, do you believe that a journalist could go inside the lab, find the good anonymous samples and tampere them... :rolleyes:
 
Apr 24, 2009
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richwagmn said:
You're right. Technically, Lance was never busted (though the 99 TDF EPO positives are awfully hard to explain away).

I think LA's a big self promoter. Which is fine if he'd be sincere about his intentions. Who really believes he came back to cycling to raise awareness about cancer? He came back because he mistakenly believes he's better than all the current riders (though we've see no sign of that in any of his performances).

Contador's put his time in and demonstrated he deserves to lead this team. 3 GT wins at his age is nothing to sneeze at. Who the f*ck does LA think he is that he can show up and challenge Contador for team leadership? Would he have tolerated the same situation during his TDF winning years? No way in hell.

LA will NOT ride for Contador. Mark my words. As a matter of fact, I can see LA getting dropped on climbs and requiring some of the team domestiques to pace him back to the leaders (just like he did in the Giro). How is that fair to Contador? The team should be sacrificing themselves for Contador, not wasting their energy trying to salve LA's ego.

Go away LA. You had your glory years. Let Contador have his.

It's an unfortunate fact for many well-known athletes that they feel they have to come up with "noble" explanations that don't ring true ("I need security for my family", "I want to spend more time with the kids"). I think Lance's ultimate motivation is pretty apparent: like many athletes who became tired of the grind and retired prematurely, he has discovered that there is no substitute for the thrill of competition. As he discovered he still had some ability to compete, it was an irresistible attraction to return to the peloton. There are many pro athletes who have done the same thing--got burned out, retired, then after a couple of years away from the sport, realized they missed it. Not that he might not get there, but Armstrong is still far away from the embarrassment of Michael Jordan or Bret Favre.

I have trouble accepting the idea that self-promotion is the only or even the primary motivation--the training to ride a grand tour is just too damn hard to do it for a reason that shallow.

As a rule, I try to avoid speculating on personal motives, since none of us really know these guys or what they are thinking. You can only go on data: Armstrong worked as a domestique in support of Leipheimer in both the Tour of California and the Giro (I understand that is a limited comparison because they are friends and Armstrong was just getting back his conditioning). I know that back in December, Armstrong made statements that sounded as though he felt entitled to be team leader. I also know that after the Giro, he publicly stated that he was firmly grounded in reality and Contador had shown he was the strongest grand tour rider (again, limited value because they are obviously trying to put on a public front).

To break my rule about speculation, here is my conclusion of how things stand: given that he seems to be a good shape, I think Armstrong is going for a "limited Hinault"--i.e. deep down, he is hoping to find the magic that will allow him to emerge as the strongest rider and go for the win, but I don't think he will be as blatant about sabotaging his teammate as Hinault was in 1986. I think the opening TT will be crucial in that regard, as well as the first mountain stage. I think if AC demonstrates clear superiority, Armstrong will ride for him in strong support, the way he did for Leipheimer. To me, the question will be, if the performances are more equal, at what point do you risk hurting the overall team while still deciding who is the leader? Will AC be allowed to take off in the mountains, or will he be restrained until later in the race? Despite their long relationship, I expect JB to make the call for the best interests of the team, not for LA. He may have already established that by leaving Noval and Horner off the TdF squad.

It won't be boring, that's for sure.
 
Apr 24, 2009
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richwagmn said:
You're right. Technically, Lance was never busted (though the 99 TDF EPO positives are awfully hard to explain away).

I think LA's a big self promoter. Which is fine if he'd be sincere about his intentions. Who really believes he came back to cycling to raise awareness about cancer? He came back because he mistakenly believes he's better than all the current riders (though we've see no sign of that in any of his performances).

Contador's put his time in and demonstrated he deserves to lead this team. 3 GT wins at his age is nothing to sneeze at. Who the f*ck does LA think he is that he can show up and challenge Contador for team leadership? Would he have tolerated the same situation during his TDF winning years? No way in hell.

LA will NOT ride for Contador. Mark my words. As a matter of fact, I can see LA getting dropped on climbs and requiring some of the team domestiques to pace him back to the leaders (just like he did in the Giro). How is that fair to Contador? The team should be sacrificing themselves for Contador, not wasting their energy trying to salve LA's ego.

Go away LA. You had your glory years. Let Contador have his.

It's an unfortunate fact for many well-known athletes that they feel they have to come up with "noble" explanations that don't ring true ("I need security for my family", "I want to spend more time with the kids"). I think Lance's ultimate motivation is pretty apparent: like many athletes who became tired of the grind and retired prematurely, he has discovered that there is no substitute for the thrill of competition. As he discovered he still had some ability to compete, it was an irresistible attraction to return to the peloton. There are many pro athletes who have done the same thing--got burned out, retired, then after a couple of years away from the sport, realized they missed it. Not that he might not get there, but Armstrong is still far away from the embarrassment of Michael Jordan or Bret Favre.

I have trouble accepting the idea that self-promotion is the only or even the primary motivation--the training to ride a grand tour is just too damn hard to do it for a reason that shallow.

As a rule, I try to avoid speculating on personal motives, since none of us really know these guys or what they are thinking. You can only go on data: Armstrong worked as a domestique in support of Leipheimer in both the Tour of California and the Giro (I understand that is a limited comparison because they are friends and Armstrong was just getting back his conditioning). I know that back in December, Armstrong made statements that sounded as though he felt entitled to be team leader. I also know that after the Giro, he publicly stated that he was firmly grounded in reality and Contador had shown he was the strongest grand tour rider (again, limited value because they are obviously trying to put on a public front).

To break my rule about speculation, here is my conclusion of how things stand: given that he seems to be a good shape, I think Armstrong is going for a "limited Hinault"--i.e. deep down, he is hoping to find the magic that will allow him to emerge as the strongest rider and go for the win, but I don't think he will be as blatant about sabotaging his teammate as Hinault was in 1986. I think the opening TT will be crucial in that regard, as well as the first mountain stage. I think if AC demonstrates clear superiority, Armstrong will ride for him in strong support, the way he did for Leipheimer. To me, the question will be, if the performances are more equal, at what point do you risk hurting the overall team while still deciding who is the leader? Will AC be allowed to take off in the mountains, or will he be restrained until later in the race? Despite their long relationship, I expect JB to make the call for the best interests of the team, not for LA. He may have already established that by leaving Noval and Horner off the TdF squad.

It won't be boring, that's for sure.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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Doug Laipple said:
LA is an accident waiting to happen. He will not make it through the tour.
AC will win handily.

The doubters and naysayers are strewn all over the TDF wake in the 7 years Armstrong won. How many "experts" predicted his demise or lack of ability to win during those 7 years???

This recent and objective assessment of Armstrong's preparedness and substantial improvement post Giro requires Bruyneel to hedge his bets on Contador.

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefranc...9710-1,00.html

Specifically Armstrong's lactic acid threshold is 3-4% higher than it was at the outset of the Giro. (See embedded video in above link).

Armstrong is also 9 pounds lighter than at the Giro. The the dominating win at a tough criterium in Nevada City, Armstrong shows he has his explosive break away ability back. He seems to be peaking at the right time. Make no mistake Contador is awesome and may indeed be the best. But, in light of 7 wins and substantial improvement since the Giro, Bruyneel would be a fool to simply relegate Armstrong to a support role and put all of his cards on Contador who still makes rookie mistakes which could kill you in the TDF (ala Paris-Nice "bonk" on the climb).

The stage one TT and the mountain stages in at stages 7 and 8 will give Contador a clear chance to "prove" (there's an idea) that he is better than Armstrong. This will leave plenty of TDF for Contador with the support of a strong team to prevail. If Contador doesn't "prove" it and Armstrong is near the top of the GC. Alberto better learn what Armstrong clearly learned in the Giro, at times even a champion gets to carry water bottles.
 
byu123 said:
The doubters and naysayers are strewn all over the TDF wake in the 7 years Armstrong won. How many "experts" predicted his demise or lack of ability to win during those 7 years???

This recent and objective assessment of Armstrong's preparedness and substantial improvement post Giro requires Bruyneel to hedge his bets on Contador.

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefranc...9710-1,00.html

Specifically Armstrong's lactic acid threshold is 3-4% higher than it was at the outset of the Giro. (See embedded video in above link).

Armstrong is also 9 pounds lighter than at the Giro. The the dominating win at a tough criterium in Nevada City, Armstrong shows he has his explosive break away ability back. He seems to be peaking at the right time. Make no mistake Contador is awesome and may indeed be the best. But, in light of 7 wins and substantial improvement since the Giro, Bruyneel would be a fool to simply relegate Armstrong to a support role and put all of his cards on Contador who still makes rookie mistakes which could kill you in the TDF (ala Paris-Nice "bonk" on the climb).

The stage one TT and the mountain stages in at stages 7 and 8 will give Contador a clear chance to "prove" (there's an idea) that he is better than Armstrong. This will leave plenty of TDF for Contador with the support of a strong team to prevail. If Contador doesn't "prove" it and Armstrong is near the top of the GC. Alberto better learn what Armstrong clearly learned in the Giro, at times even a champion gets to carry water bottles.

How many threads are you going to post this same cut and paste crap to?
 
Jun 26, 2009
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You are correct sir.

Publicus said:
If he's lost 2 kilos since the Giro, that means he's dropped 4 pounds, not 9.

He lost 2 kilos between Tour of California and Giro and 2 more since Giro for a total of 4 (8.8 pounds) since end of Tour of California. My bad . . .