The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

[Rollthedice]

Froome is the transformer, he raised the bar so high that the jump in performances over the winter by this asthma sufferer brother Yates might appear minor. It's Ryder Hesjedal winning the Giro while dropping every climber every time the road went up.

 

[macbindle]

Yes, I suppose we just see things a bit differently. I really wouldn't describe it as batshit crazy. I'd say I'm surprised by Yates, but not in the way that I was surprised (appalled) by Froome in '11. Froome had no pedigree....nothing. Yates's palmares look like the progression of a future Tour contender.

 

[macbindle]

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

 

[meat puppet]

Good stuff. Keep going, lad.

 

[luckyboy]

hey, they actually asked him about the positive in a press conference!

Yates has at times appeared in a race of his own at this Giro, seemingly able to drop his rivals at will every time the road climbs. Such dominant performances at the highest level of cycling inevitably draw scrutiny and scepticism, and Yates knows, too, that his 2016 ban for 'non-intentional doping' will always follow him.

At Paris-Nice in 2016, Yates returned a positive test for the substance terbutaline, which he said was contained in an asthma inhaler. His team doctor had not applied for the required Therapeutic Use Exemption, and Yates was eventually handed a four-month ban, missing that year's Tour de France.

"Well, I'm always going to get this, regardless of what my performances say because obviously of what happened in the past with me," Yates said. "That was an innocent mistake by an innocent person that I will have to deal with for the rest of my career, and I knew that at the time. Yeah, there's not really much else to say. I don't really follow social media all that much."

Wonder if he's still on the terbutaline or back with salbutamol now.

Interviewed a doctor specialising in asthma in sports back when it happened - https://inthedrops.net/2016/05/02/the-yates-case/

More recent studies suggested that Terbutaline can improve strength and power performance. Even to get those you’d need to take quite high doses of it. Linking back to the guy who is in the news today – it’s not really likely to improve endurance performance, as far as we know.

Sometimes athletes choose Terbutaline because they don’t get along with Salbutamol – either it’s not working well for them or they get more side-effects. There’s not really, from an asthma treatment point of view, that much difference. The effects can last a bit longer so that might be a reason for a cyclist to use it.

The reason Terbutaline needs a TUE and Salbutamol doesn’t is more down to the way the tests differentiate between oral and inhaled form. With Salbutamol it’s quite clear that if level in urine is above 1000ng/mL it’s likely that you’ve taken an oral dose. Whereas with Terbutaline it’s quite difficult to tell the difference between an oral and inhaled dose, so you can’t differentiate between the two.

 

[macbindle]

Re:

Good stuff. Keep going, lad.

Also, on stage 15, some of his time gain was due to the other contenders arguing amongst themselves about who should pull. They let him maintain a gap. That wasn't a difference due to physicality it was down to race tactics.

Want more?

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

...described as "extraordinary" by one victim (was it Dumoulin?).

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

...described as "extraordinary" by one victim (was it Dumoulin?).

So what? Maybe it was a compliment.

I doubt it was a special coded message for 'doping', just for conspiracy sites like the clinic, do you? If Yates is doping then they all are (at least those that can afford it) and that includes Dumoulin.

Of all the chasers, the one that definitely would not be able to respond would be Dumoulin.

The other thing to mention is that Yates's attacks are one-time short range attacks. They have not been repeated attack after attack in the early part of a monster climb. It has been one very short burst.

Remind yourself: who won the Zoncolan??

And who tried and failed to catch the attacker...

 

[roundabout]

Prior to this Giro one could count the number of times Yates finished in the top-5 climbers on a GT mountain stage on one hand of a sloth.

But, uh, "progression"

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

...described as "extraordinary" by one victim (was it Dumoulin?).

So what? Maybe it was a compliment.

I doubt it was a special coded message for 'doping', just for conspiracy sites like the clinic, do you? If Yates is doping then they all are (at least those that can afford it) and that includes Dumoulin.

Of all the chasers, the one that definitely would not be able to respond would be Dumoulin.

The other thing to mention is that Yates's attacks are one-time short range attacks. They have not been repeated attack after attack in the early part of a monster climb. It has been one very short burst.

Remind yourself: who won the Zoncolan??

And who tried and failed to catch the attacker...

Why so sensitive? It can be interpreted any number of ways and coming from one of his elite rivals it gives us on the sidelines perspective into what it was like to bear witness to it.

...and you're wrong about his one time bursts of amazement. He was reeling in multiple rivals attacks solo on more than one occasion. Apparently I struck a nerve where you feel the need to rush to defend.

...and you appear to have mistaken me for a Froome fan which couldn't be further from the truth. His Zoncolan adventure was about as suspicious as anything that occurred in this Giro.

...and lastly, Yates may have failed to catch Froome but he went from being multiple seconds back prior to attempting to reel him in, which he didn't necessarily need to do considering his time advantage on Froome, to what, 6 seconds? Yates simply ran out of gas and road in his pursuit. He has pretty much taken time when he wanted to and made it look a bit too easy in the process.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

...described as "extraordinary" by one victim (was it Dumoulin?).

So what? Maybe it was a compliment.

I doubt it was a special coded message for 'doping', just for conspiracy sites like the clinic, do you? If Yates is doping then they all are (at least those that can afford it) and that includes Dumoulin.

Of all the chasers, the one that definitely would not be able to respond would be Dumoulin.

The other thing to mention is that Yates's attacks are one-time short range attacks. They have not been repeated attack after attack in the early part of a monster climb. It has been one very short burst.

Remind yourself: who won the Zoncolan??

And who tried and failed to catch the attacker...

Yes, the current Yates only needs one (two at most) attacks to drop the rest.

 

[Ripper]

Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

In 30 seconds of riding, he put 10 seconds of daylight between himself and the group, then expanded from there. Yes, there was some squabbling in that group that contributed to the gap not being closed. But I'm extremely confident they would not have closed it regardless. The chasing occurred, including downhill before going up again, and the gap just grew and grew. Also, observe the racers as they are riding. When Yates went, everyone else was on the limit, he was firmly in control.

Just count how many journos report that Yates seems to attack at will and dance away from everyone. It's plain obvious.

 

[macbindle]

Yes, but don't forget as far as GTs go he has been mostly in the TdF, which is on another level.

He still managed some top 10 ( a 7th and a 5th or something) on some pretty beefy stsges up against the world's best.

EDIT: Apologies this is a reply to Roundabout.

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

...described as "extraordinary" by one victim (was it Dumoulin?).

So what? Maybe it was a compliment.

I doubt it was a special coded message for 'doping', just for conspiracy sites like the clinic, do you? If Yates is doping then they all are (at least those that can afford it) and that includes Dumoulin.

Of all the chasers, the one that definitely would not be able to respond would be Dumoulin.

The other thing to mention is that Yates's attacks are one-time short range attacks. They have not been repeated attack after attack in the early part of a monster climb. It has been one very short burst.

Remind yourself: who won the Zoncolan??

And who tried and failed to catch the attacker...

Why so sensitive? It can be interpreted any number of ways and coming from one of his elite rivals it gives us on the sidelines perspective into what it was like to bear witness to it.

...and you're wrong about his one time bursts of amazement. He was reeling in multiple rivals attacks solo on more than one occasion. Apparently I struck a nerve where you feel the need to rush to defend.

...and you appear to have mistaken me for a Froome fan which couldn't be further from the truth. His Zoncolan adventure was about as suspicious as anything that occurred in this Giro.

...and lastly, Yates may have failed to catch Froome but he went from being multiple seconds back prior to attempting to reel him in, which he didn't necessarily need to do considering his time advantage on Froome, to what, 6 seconds? Yates simply ran out of gas and road in his pursuit. He has pretty much taken time when he wanted to and made it look a bit too easy in the process.

You haven't touched a nerve, and I'm not accusing you of being a Froome fan. I wouldn't accuse my worst enemy of that

I was making two points really. Firstly, that I've read some posts here where people seem to think the riders are talking in code to them about doping. But that is because some posters only see bike racing in terms of doping, which is why they post here and rary elsewhere. Apologies, that is not levelled at you...I don't know the regulars in here well enough remember who posts what.


Secondly, I'm not really defending Yates against accusations of doping. I would place my money on him (and all the main guys) carrying on the great traditions of cycle racing

What I am saying is that Yates always looked like a future major talent, and the future is now the present. It's a very strong performance, and quite understandably strong performances raise questions...but it emphatically isn't Ricco, Froome or Contador level that we are seeing.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

So what? Maybe it was a compliment.

I doubt it was a special coded message for 'doping', just for conspiracy sites like the clinic, do you? If Yates is doping then they all are (at least those that can afford it) and that includes Dumoulin.

...

Any number of people across the web have regarded these comments as pointed and subtle comments on ET performances. If you don't buy it, fine, but it seems pretty obvious to many a seasoned observer.

While I don't doubt that most at the sharp end are doping, the statement "if Yates is doing it they all are" makes no logical sense to me.

 

[macbindle]

It does if you understand the economics behind doping.

With regards to what you and others may regard as 'pointed comments', there is a huge leeway there for you and them to be mistaken. You are trying to second guess a hidden meaning by somebody speaking a second language. Who are these 'seasoned observer's? Posters here? One of the effects of social media is that people seek out others with similar views in an act of mutual reinforcement and self-affirmation.

There isn't much challenging going on in here. Just saying

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

It does if you understand the economics behind doping.

With regards to what you and others may regard as 'pointed comments', there is a huge leeway there for you and them to be mistaken. You are trying to second guess a hidden meaning by somebody speaking a second language. Who are these 'seasoned observer's? Posters here? One of the effects of social media is that people seek out others with similar views in an act of mutual reinforcement and self-affirmation.

There isn't much challenging going on in here. Just saying

I've read comments across the net about it, I've seen people comment in recap shows, etc. Of course it's possible to be mistaken, on either side of the question.

The observation isn't exactly unique, surprising, or out on a limb. Riders have been making comments like this as long as I've been watching cycling. And calling a forum which you contribute to quite regularly a "conspiracy site" is good for a bit of a chuckle. Seems like some pretty aggressive questioning (mocking really) of a relatively straightforward observation.

Seemed like obvious comments about Yates to me. You see it otherwise, no problem.

 

[macbindle]

I've no issue with you having different views, but I deserve the right to defend mine and am open to being challenged too. I don't think Ive posted much in the clinic board, actually. I read it from time to time, but I think it is fair to regard it as a conspiracy site, by definition. That isn't to say that there aren't some really knowledgeable and balanced posters because there are, but there are some pretty...err ...out there ones too and there is most definitely a clinic orthodoxy that I have not seen challenged.

Yes, I was mocking the coded message remark, but I also explained why, which is the difference between being provocative and trying to provoke a conversation. Of course you regard it as 'straightforward', but I'm hoping that you will see why I don't.

Ok, I've got to split. Apologies to cut this short as I think you'd want to give a reasoned reply. I'll try and catch up with it tomorrow evening....by which time Yates might have won a mass sprint too

 

[The Hegelian]

I'd be surprised if Yates wasn't doping, but the I'm finding the hyperbole in this thread a bit idiotic. The tt showed that Dumoulin isn't quite in top form, and Yates is: good enough for 20th. Hardly a mutant performance.

On the climbs the most he took in any one attack was 30 odd seconds, which was increased greatly by infighting in the chase group. Again, hardly mutant.

As far his history goes - he's won MTF's in L'avenir + finished very high overall in a lot of big races, including Romandie, Dauphine, Paris-Nice, Vuelta + TDF. It's exactly the kind of trajectory that leads one to think "this guy could do a breakout GT at some stage." The sense (here) that he's come from nowhere is basically ridiculous.

I can't escape the conclusion that the big issue here is that he's anglo not colombian - for mine, both Yates' are in the class of other young gun climbers who have done or are doing great things - Quintana, Chaves, Lopez etc. Yates inherits all the Froome skepticism despite having precisely the opposite kind of journey into GT success.

 

[vedrafjord]

hey, they actually asked him about the positive in a press conference!

Yates has at times appeared in a race of his own at this Giro, seemingly able to drop his rivals at will every time the road climbs. Such dominant performances at the highest level of cycling inevitably draw scrutiny and scepticism, and Yates knows, too, that his 2016 ban for 'non-intentional doping' will always follow him.

At Paris-Nice in 2016, Yates returned a positive test for the substance terbutaline, which he said was contained in an asthma inhaler. His team doctor had not applied for the required Therapeutic Use Exemption, and Yates was eventually handed a four-month ban, missing that year's Tour de France.

"Well, I'm always going to get this, regardless of what my performances say because obviously of what happened in the past with me," Yates said. "That was an innocent mistake by an innocent person that I will have to deal with for the rest of my career, and I knew that at the time. Yeah, there's not really much else to say. I don't really follow social media all that much."

Wonder if he's still on the terbutaline or back with salbutamol now.

Interviewed a doctor specialising in asthma in sports back when it happened - https://inthedrops.net/2016/05/02/the-yates-case/

More recent studies suggested that Terbutaline can improve strength and power performance. Even to get those you’d need to take quite high doses of it. Linking back to the guy who is in the news today – it’s not really likely to improve endurance performance, as far as we know.

Sometimes athletes choose Terbutaline because they don’t get along with Salbutamol – either it’s not working well for them or they get more side-effects. There’s not really, from an asthma treatment point of view, that much difference. The effects can last a bit longer so that might be a reason for a cyclist to use it.

The reason Terbutaline needs a TUE and Salbutamol doesn’t is more down to the way the tests differentiate between oral and inhaled form. With Salbutamol it’s quite clear that if level in urine is above 1000ng/mL it’s likely that you’ve taken an oral dose. Whereas with Terbutaline it’s quite difficult to tell the difference between an oral and inhaled dose, so you can’t differentiate between the two.

I've said this before but: asthma β2 adrenergic agonists will not turn a donkey into a racehorse, or even a donkey into a much faster donkey. If a rider is caught it mostly means "I am taking every single thing that might give me an edge, and this one happened to blow a tripwire with lowish consequences".

Look at it this way: every pro racer obviously knows about salbutamol and can even take it up to the max dose without a TUE, but it didn't do them much good on the Zoncolan.

 

[red_flanders]

I've said this before but: asthma β2 adrenergic agonists will not turn a donkey into a racehorse, or even a donkey into a much faster donkey. If a rider is caught it mostly means "I am taking every single thing that might give me an edge, and this one happened to blow a tripwire with lowish consequences".

Look at it this way: every pro racer obviously knows about salbutamol and can even take it up to the max dose without a TUE, but it didn't do them much good on the Zoncolan.

I tend to agree with the thrust of your post, though the donkey analogy is as always pretty vague, so it's hard to say how much I agree. I think this is worth consideration, as it seems clearly useful in recovery:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912897

Effect of salbutamol on muscle strength and endurance performance in nonasthmatic men.

Results:
Peak expiratory flow increased from 601 +/- 67 L x min(-1) to 629 +/- 64 L x min(-1) after salbutamol (P < 0.05). Peak torque was higher after salbutamol than after placebo (4.4% for the knee extensors, 4.9% for the knee flexors) (P < 0.05). Mean endurance time increased from 3,039 +/- 1,031 s after placebo to 3,439 +/- 1,287 s after salbutamol (P = 0.19).

...

Conclusions:
Under the conditions of this study, oral salbutamol appears to be an effective ergogenic aid in nonasthmatic individuals not experiencing adverse side effects.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Re:

Froome is the transformer, he raised the bar so high that the jump in performances over the winter by this asthma sufferer brother Yates might appear minor. It's Ryder Hesjedal winning the Giro while dropping every climber every time the road went up.

Hesje-what now? Did you watch that Giro at all? Hesjedal was strong in that Giro, but that wasn't what happened at all. Purito didn't take Hesjedal seriously a couple of times and just let him go from what I saw. Everything on the forum is 'x rider GOES NUCLEAR11!11!!!'. When you look at everything that way you end up with silly posts like this one claiming that Hesjedal was the strongest climber in the Giro when he clearly wasn't. People dope, but come on, put some thought into it.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

Having said that, there was that one attack where Yates just danced off leaving all the others literally panting....especially Pinot.

...described as "extraordinary" by one victim (was it Dumoulin?).

I think some of this is just throwing shade, to be honest. A little psychological game.

I did like that Yates addressed his earlier doping infraction. My hope is that he learned something from it (besides, "make extra sure that you don't get caught again").

I don't have the energy to go back and see if Yates's ITT was out of the norm for him, but it did seem consistent with a motivated leader.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Yes, but don't forget as far as GTs go he has been mostly in the TdF, which is on another level.

That's up for discussion. Look at last year's top-10, where Yates managed 7th, in front of Wunderkind Meintjes en behind a beaten-up Dan Martin.

 

[Roninho]

Re:

I'd be surprised if Yates wasn't doping, but the I'm finding the hyperbole in this thread a bit idiotic. The tt showed that Dumoulin isn't quite in top form, and Yates is: good enough for 20th. Hardly a mutant performance.

On the climbs the most he took in any one attack was 30 odd seconds, which was increased greatly by infighting in the chase group. Again, hardly mutant.

As far his history goes - he's won MTF's in L'avenir + finished very high overall in a lot of big races, including Romandie, Dauphine, Paris-Nice, Vuelta + TDF. It's exactly the kind of trajectory that leads one to think "this guy could do a breakout GT at some stage." The sense (here) that he's come from nowhere is basically ridiculous.

I can't escape the conclusion that the big issue here is that he's anglo not colombian - for mine, both Yates' are in the class of other young gun climbers who have done or are doing great things - Quintana, Chaves, Lopez etc. Yates inherits all the Froome skepticism despite having precisely the opposite kind of journey into GT success.

I agree.

22 years old - 5th in Dauphine, basque and romandie
23 years old - 6th in the Vuelta
24 years old - 7th in the TDF
25 years old - 1st in Giro

I am sceptical that Yates is not doping. However i would be shocked if he started doping this season based on his progression.