The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

Froome is the transformer, he raised the bar so high that the jump in performances over the winter by this asthma sufferer brother Yates might appear minor. It's Ryder Hesjedal winning the Giro while dropping every climber every time the road went up.

Hesje-what now? Did you watch that Giro at all? Hesjedal was strong in that Giro, but that wasn't what happened at all. Purito didn't take Hesjedal seriously a couple of times and just let him go from what I saw. Everything on the forum is 'x rider GOES NUCLEAR11!11!!!'. When you look at everything that way you end up with silly posts like this one claiming that Hesjedal was the strongest climber in the Giro when he clearly wasn't. People dope, but come on, put some thought into it.

Think you possibly misunderstood the post you responded to in your rush to be appalled at the clinic. (Hint: the comparison is to what the Hesjedal Giro would have looked like, not what it did look like)

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Froome is the transformer, he raised the bar so high that the jump in performances over the winter by this asthma sufferer brother Yates might appear minor. It's Ryder Hesjedal winning the Giro while dropping every climber every time the road went up.

Hesje-what now? Did you watch that Giro at all? Hesjedal was strong in that Giro, but that wasn't what happened at all. Purito didn't take Hesjedal seriously a couple of times and just let him go from what I saw. Everything on the forum is 'x rider GOES NUCLEAR11!11!!!'. When you look at everything that way you end up with silly posts like this one claiming that Hesjedal was the strongest climber in the Giro when he clearly wasn't. People dope, but come on, put some thought into it.

Either I was not clear enough or you misunderstood. The surprise is at the magnitude of Ryder winning the Giro in 2012 and not the performance, of course I watched that Giro. Yates is the one who drops everybody while obviously Hesjedal grind out his win.

 

[Bolder]

But, really, what is the point of all this? (kind of an existential question)

We know already that Yates has doped, and he will never be able to prove he's clean. This is the impossible bar that any pro cyclist has to clear, more so than any other sport. What if TD was in the lead right now, and Yates was 5 minutes down? We'd be yelping that a big guy like TD can't possibly have kept up in the mountains with Bardet etc.

 

[nayr497]

Yates's...riding well in CA and Italy. Quite interesting.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

Yes, but don't forget as far as GTs go he has been mostly in the TdF, which is on another level.

He still managed some top 10 ( a 7th and a 5th or something) on some pretty beefy stsges up against the world's best.

EDIT: Apologies this is a reply to Roundabout.

I don't have the links ready, but from my recollection of the various climb analysis performed over the years, the level on the climbs required to win the Giro is about the same as in the Tour.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Yes, but don't forget as far as GTs go he has been mostly in the TdF, which is on another level.

He still managed some top 10 ( a 7th and a 5th or something) on some pretty beefy stsges up against the world's best.

EDIT: Apologies this is a reply to Roundabout.

I don't have the links ready, but from my recollection of the various climb analysis performed over the years, the level on the climbs required to win the Giro is about the same as in the Tour.

I never thought the TdF was on another level.

I prefer the Giro as a spectacle to the TdF which has become a procession mostly since Indurain.

 

[macbindle]

I agree, the Giro is the best GT in my opinion. However, look who turns up to the Giro compared to the Tour. It isn't really debatable which one is the most highly contested. (and yes, I know Froome is at the Giro, but this year he is an anomaly)

 

[thehog]

There are different forms of doping...

Donkey to racehorse doping - Froome
Solid rider with one bad day repaired doping - Yates
Shame riders publicly so they have to resort to personal doping - Astana / Nibali
Anti-doping doping - Garmin/JV riders

 

[macbindle]

Doping was always part of the game. Don't see anything that suggests change. As you say there are levels of doping. Most of it is down to what riders are willing to invest financially.

Within the parameters of what I've just said, I don't see anything extreme with Yates as has been suggested upthread. Success begats success...because success means more money to invest in better 'medical care'

 

[Netserk]

Oh, he has clearly stepped up his program.

I find it far, far more likely that his improvement is also down to more effective doping program than it being done with a similar/unchanged program. And not just marginally so.

 

[macbindle]

So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?

The fact that no one has the answer to that neither adds or removes credibility to the speculation that he's upped his program. Probably best to to recognize that it's pure speculation and there's no way to know.

 

[macbindle]

Nope. If you want to use phrases like 'clearly' then you need to put some meat on the bones. Either you demonstrate an actual knowledge of the substances used or an actual knowledge of human physiology where you can demonstrate that the improvement cannot be accounted for by training. For both you need to be able to quantify the improvement.

Otherwise it's just guff.

 

[zastomito]

Same arguments heard about Armstrong and Froome. You want a smoking gun. Well you will have to wait at best couple of years more likely 5-10. Already seen people climbing HC climbs smirking. It always ends up in tears.

 

[macbindle]

Froome did show an improvement that couldn't be accounted for by training.

Armstrong? Everybody knew anyway. Open secret.

Smirking? He looked like he was grimacing. Actually they all did.

Maybe they were all smirking.

 

[zastomito]

No, the same amount of people knew. People in the peloton and aficionados like people in the Clinic. Same as with Yates.

 

[macbindle]

See above posts about speculation. Speculating is not knowing.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?

The fact that no one has the answer to that neither adds or removes credibility to the speculation that he's upped his program. Probably best to to recognize that it's pure speculation and there's no way to know.

I think sometimes you can infer. For example, riders that suddenly become super skinny before a GT: corticosteriods, aicar etc. And non climbers that suddenly start making very select front groups on long climbs: just screams epo. And riders who rebound stunningly during a GT: may as well wear a billboard which says "just had a nice sweet blood bag."

If there's anything about Yates that looks a bit different, it's his arms: definitely lost muscle mass there. And that's the modern GC program, perfected by Sky and then Tinkoff etc.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

See above posts about speculation. Speculating is not knowing.

What we know for certain is that testing is a joke.

We know those in the sport have been and have no reason not to stop enabling doping.

Yates rides for a team run by past dopers. They made good from it, so they will not be picking riders to ride who will shun what they know works and boy does it work well.

Not speculation that anyone who wins a GT is doping and doping hard. Plenty of former riders have given testimony how it is impossible to win over 3 weeks without doping never mind compete over 3 weeks.

Till testing becomes a truly independent well funded body that takes its job seriously there is no speculation.

 

[Rollthedice]

It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

See above posts about speculation. Speculating is not knowing.

What we know for certain is that testing is a joke.

We know those in the sport have been and have no reason not to stop enabling doping.

Yates rides for a team run by past dopers. They made good from it, so they will not be picking riders to ride who will shun what they know works and boy does it work well.

Not speculation that anyone who wins a GT is doping and doping hard. Plenty of former riders have given testimony how it is impossible to win over 3 weeks without doping never mind compete over 3 weeks.

Till testing becomes a truly independent well funded body that takes its job seriously there is no speculation.

That is a different discussion.

 

[macbindle]

Re:

It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.

All riders in their last year of contract?

Or just the ones who fit your theory?

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.

All riders in their last year of contract?

Or just the ones who fit your theory?

Can't be all riders. Valverde and Sagan would be great examples of riders who's level doesn't really vary between contract years and non contract years. They both get similar results regardless of what their contract situation is. I also don't think Contador's contract vs no contract year levels varied that much either.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.

All riders in their last year of contract?

Or just the ones who fit your theory?

Obviously a subjective matter of opinion on who's doing it. That said, this is a common phenomenon across sports. Players in the NFL, NBA, etc. have a habit of performing better when it's a contract year. Players, coaches, executives, reporters, and informed observers understand this. It's human nature. It would be pretty silly to act like this doesn't happen.

Demanding proof for subjective observations doesn't make a ton of sense. For the most part, we're here to discuss our opinions.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?

The fact that no one has the answer to that neither adds or removes credibility to the speculation that he's upped his program. Probably best to to recognize that it's pure speculation and there's no way to know.

I think sometimes you can infer. For example, riders that suddenly become super skinny before a GT: corticosteriods, aicar etc. And non climbers that suddenly start making very select front groups on long climbs: just screams epo. And riders who rebound stunningly during a GT: may as well wear a billboard which says "just had a nice sweet blood bag."

If there's anything about Yates that looks a bit different, it's his arms: definitely lost muscle mass there. And that's the modern GC program, perfected by Sky and then Tinkoff etc.

Yes, I agree completely, one can make informed inferences, but it's still speculation. We don't know what people are taking.

My point was that demanding some kind of answer to this question is deliberately obtuse. We all know that no one knows what exactly riders are on going into any discussion, so acting like this is the bar for whether to consider an opinion is pretty freaking silly.