The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

it always astounds me why they 'take the piss'. Froome was the same....why cant they make it look believeable ? why the need to draw so much attention ? if Yates had just stuck with the one stage win, kept the jersey....no-one would be taking about his ridiculous performance.

Are they just so cosseted by their entourage that they are unaware of the media furore and their image ? or dont they care because they know they can get away with it like the Armstrongs and Froome.

Maybe they just don't care what the Clinic thinks, or at least not as much as the Clinic thinks they should care about what the clinic thinks?

THIS
we must not forget we are a very small minority on here. the Clinic is fun for us. real life is out there. fans on the roads. normal public. that´s what cycling is for.

 

[JosephK]

Re:

it always astounds me why they 'take the piss'. Froome was the same....why cant they make it look believeable ? why the need to draw so much attention ? if Yates had just stuck with the one stage win, kept the jersey....no-one would be taking about his ridiculous performance.

Are they just so cosseted by their entourage that they are unaware of the media furore and their image ? or dont they care because they know they can get away with it like the Armstrongs and Froome.

Just wait till tomorrow's time trial. It's going to be flowing. :lol:

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

We haven't got a proper look at a top-level doping program since 2010 or thereabouts. We don't know for certain how much or how little they rely on EPO, steroids, blood bags or weight-loss drugs these days. Our inability to say how exactly he's getting his boost and getting away with it doesn't make the boost any less real.

We can fairly comfortably say that Horner was with bags, given his blood data.

Since then, we've had the failed Kreuziger case and after that not a single bio-passport case (iirc).

I still think blood doping is the most important part of a modern doping programme.

Yeah i believe that the loss of the Kreuziger case has dealt a big blow to the biopassport, they were already cautious about which cases they would act upon before, now they seem literally pusillanimous.

it always astounds me why they 'take the piss'. Froome was the same....why cant they make it look believeable ? why the need to draw so much attention ? if Yates had just stuck with the one stage win, kept the jersey....no-one would be taking about his ridiculous performance.

Are they just so cosseted by their entourage that they are unaware of the media furore and their image ? or dont they care because they know they can get away with it like the Armstrongs and Froome.

Maybe they just don't care what the Clinic thinks, or at least not as much as the Clinic thinks they should care about what the clinic thinks?

THIS
we must not forget we are a very small minority on here. the Clinic is fun for us. real life is out there. fans on the roads. normal public. that´s what cycling is for.

Sure they don't care about the clinic, and they shouldn't of course, but as for real life, i can tell you that a lot of long standing cycling fans, friends of mine and myself included, have begun to not follow it as closely as before, a bit of hypocrisy on their/my part ofc because we knew that they were doping before, but right now (not talking about Yates specifically here) it's hard to pretend that you are not watching wrestling on wheels sometimes.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Maybe its because he wants to win the race and is up against the world best time trialist and he needs to gain some time on him.

Just a thought.

This does not make him less suspicious.

IMHO, he made a big jump. Not a Froome jump but still a tainted one.

 

[movingtarget]

Not Bad. From 7th in the tour and 44th in the vuelta without doing nothing to destroying the field in 7 months was pretty unpredictable. 4 stage wins in 2 weeks, not even Pantani in 99'or Robobasso in 2006 were on this level.

Cmon now. Yates is incredible but Pantani won 2 stages by 20 seconds and then Pampeago and Campiglio by over a minute, 30 seconds behind Honchar on a 30km TT..
Two of Basso's three stage wins were by 1:17 and 1:26, plus three other mountain stages where he made 20-30 seconds on GC guys like Yates has been doing.

If Yates beats everyone on Bardonecchia and Cervinia by 30s-1min we can talk, but between Etna, Zoncolan and Sappada he took about the same time from Dumoulin as Basso did from Simoni and Piepoli in 6.5km on Bondone lol.

Yates isn't even close to the human motorbikes like the Cobra and Pantani or droids like Basso. Who is he putting time into ? Pinot and Pozzo those champions ?

there's a 4 time tour de france winner in this race

Yeah he had two falls on the same hip, one a heavy one at speed and he was training for consecutive GTs. That might have had a little to do with it..........Dumoulin simply isn't in the same shape as last year where he met a mediocre Nibali and Quintana. The others are second level GT riders.

 

[Escarabajo]

Frightening dominance from Yates day after day. Nobody has dominated a grand tour in this manner since peak Froome at the tour. It's still very much in the balance as to whether he remains in pink after tomorrow but the way he is riding away from all other GC men uphill it won't matter as he will simply claw back any deficit in the remaining stages. He has jumped a level from top 5/10 GC man to a rider capable of crushing everyone else in the mountains. Not. Normal.

So assuming that someone, somewhere is going to have to win the mountain stages, what would a normal believeable progression to reach this level be?

Because it seems to me that competing strongly in such stages from your first year as a pro, passing through winning a stage in the vuelta/finishing top 6 (whilst working for a teammate), and then a top 10 in the TDF, up to the age of 25, looks like a pretty steady progression.

Yeah, I agree. He (and his bro) have had 'potential GT winner' stamped on them from the moment they were signed. And they've both progressed steadily each year - if you look at both of their palmares year by year, it is hardly a surprise to see one of them take 20-30 seconds on a few key climbing stages.....

I will grant you though, that if he tt's like a racehorse than something truly surprising is taking place. In fact, I regard his prologue as more suss than his stage wins/time gains.

I don't have a problem with that. Is in the last two stages where I have a problem with believing Yates's normal level.

 

[simoni]

Frightening dominance from Yates day after day. Nobody has dominated a grand tour in this manner since peak Froome at the tour. It's still very much in the balance as to whether he remains in pink after tomorrow but the way he is riding away from all other GC men uphill it won't matter as he will simply claw back any deficit in the remaining stages. He has jumped a level from top 5/10 GC man to a rider capable of crushing everyone else in the mountains. Not. Normal.

So assuming that someone, somewhere is going to have to win the mountain stages, what would a normal believeable progression to reach this level be?

Because it seems to me that competing strongly in such stages from your first year as a pro, passing through winning a stage in the vuelta/finishing top 6 (whilst working for a teammate), and then a top 10 in the TDF, up to the age of 25, looks like a pretty steady progression.

Yeah, I agree. He (and his bro) have had 'potential GT winner' stamped on them from the moment they were signed. And they've both progressed steadily each year - if you look at both of their palmares year by year, it is hardly a surprise to see one of them take 20-30 seconds on a few key climbing stages.....

I will grant you though, that if he tt's like a racehorse than something truly surprising is taking place. In fact, I regard his prologue as more suss than his stage wins/time gains.

I don't have a problem with that. Is in the last two stages where I have a problem with believing Yates's normal level.

I'll happily accept that his performance on Zoncolan was superb and merits (sensible) discussion, treated either in isolation or as part of his two weeks so far.

I don't agree about yesterday - yes, 18kms sounds ridiculous at first glance but taken in context (i.e. 7km of it was downhill and he was being "chased" by a group that was more interested in fighing Dumoulin for second than trying to win the race) it really isn't what it first appears.

Note also that he was losing time to the Froome group before the serious part of the final climb.

 

[samhocking]

Frightening dominance from Yates day after day. Nobody has dominated a grand tour in this manner since peak Froome at the tour. It's still very much in the balance as to whether he remains in pink after tomorrow but the way he is riding away from all other GC men uphill it won't matter as he will simply claw back any deficit in the remaining stages. He has jumped a level from top 5/10 GC man to a rider capable of crushing everyone else in the mountains. Not. Normal.

So assuming that someone, somewhere is going to have to win the mountain stages, what would a normal believeable progression to reach this level be?

Because it seems to me that competing strongly in such stages from your first year as a pro, passing through winning a stage in the vuelta/finishing top 6 (whilst working for a teammate), and then a top 10 in the TDF, up to the age of 25, looks like a pretty steady progression.

Yeah, I agree. He (and his bro) have had 'potential GT winner' stamped on them from the moment they were signed. And they've both progressed steadily each year - if you look at both of their palmares year by year, it is hardly a surprise to see one of them take 20-30 seconds on a few key climbing stages.....

I will grant you though, that if he tt's like a racehorse than something truly surprising is taking place. In fact, I regard his prologue as more suss than his stage wins/time gains.

Probably overlooked, but Simon's career started on the Track. He was competitive at the beginning in pursuit with Thomas & Kennaugh and beating them in 20km scratch and omnium races etc and only just missed out on Olympic Pursuit selection to them. In 2013 he was World Champion Mens Points Race though showing he is anything but a climber despite his light weight. Although considered a climber, I've always viewed him more like a cross between Thomas & Bettini with a bit of Pantani about him. He has explosiveness from the track, but a definite delicateness of a pure climber which is very unique. As soon as he won young jersey in Tour last year, it should be expected he will follow the path of other young jersey winners like Quintana, Pinot, Garderen, Comntador, Schleck etc in Grand Tours soon after. That jersey is never won by luck, that's for sure.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Frightening dominance from Yates day after day. Nobody has dominated a grand tour in this manner since peak Froome at the tour. It's still very much in the balance as to whether he remains in pink after tomorrow but the way he is riding away from all other GC men uphill it won't matter as he will simply claw back any deficit in the remaining stages. He has jumped a level from top 5/10 GC man to a rider capable of crushing everyone else in the mountains. Not. Normal.

So assuming that someone, somewhere is going to have to win the mountain stages, what would a normal believeable progression to reach this level be?

Because it seems to me that competing strongly in such stages from your first year as a pro, passing through winning a stage in the vuelta/finishing top 6 (whilst working for a teammate), and then a top 10 in the TDF, up to the age of 25, looks like a pretty steady progression.

Yeah, I agree. He (and his bro) have had 'potential GT winner' stamped on them from the moment they were signed. And they've both progressed steadily each year - if you look at both of their palmares year by year, it is hardly a surprise to see one of them take 20-30 seconds on a few key climbing stages.....

I will grant you though, that if he tt's like a racehorse than something truly surprising is taking place. In fact, I regard his prologue as more suss than his stage wins/time gains.

Probably overlooked, but Simon's career started on the Track. He was competitive at the beginning in pursuit with Thomas & Kennaugh and beating them in 20km scratch and omnium races etc and only just missed out on Olympic Pursuit selection to them. In 2013 he was World Champion Mens Points Race though showing he is anything but a climber despite his light weight. Although considered a climber, I've always viewed him more like a cross between Thomas & Bettini with a bit of Pantani about him. He has explosiveness from the track, but a definite delicateness of a pure climber which is very unique. As soon as he won young jersey in Tour last year, it should be expected he will follow the path of other young jersey winners like Quintana, Pinot, Garderen, Comntador, Schleck etc in Grand Tours soon after. That jersey is never won by luck, that's for sure.

Although i agree with you that Yates level might be explainable by saying that he is a talented cyclist who has just entered his prime (Which isn't incompatible with doping), you realise that the riders you are comparing him to are either known dopers or very suspicious? Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

 

[samhocking]

True, but I don't correlate doping suspicion through who won a young jersey or who beats who by what amount of time. If it was that simple such logic would be made an WADA anti-doping rule violation!
His twin brother was 4th in 2016 Tour, 9th in 2017 Giro, so whatever is going on is going on with two riders and seems gradual progression up the top 10 of each Grand Tour by both at the same time.

 

[therealthing]

We know now why he is so much better: the pink jersey gives him more power, says Ryan Mullen:
http://amp.timeinc.net/cyclingweekly/news/racing/giro-ditalia/much-time-will-tom-dumoulin-take-simon-yates-giro-ditalia-time-trial-380732?source=dam

(At the bottom)

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Just after Yates wins the Giro the UCI will announce Froome's salbutamol AAF ban

A couple of days after that news will leak that Yates has tripped the salbutamol AAF wire (oopsie those Brits on asthma meds eh)

Yates will hire Mike Morgan to string his AAF case out and while complaining the matter should be confidential his team will leak stories of kidney malfunction and antiobiotics the usual cobblers to the media

Yates will be allowed to keep riding and will win this year's TdF and Vuelta for an epic clean sweep

BC's new reformed management team will select Yates for the Worlds which he will smash without breaking sweat

Have no fear for the future of pro cycling though next year after Yates has been banned the other Yates will rinse and repeat

 

[ontheroad]

Yates' performance on Zoncolan in isolation was suspicious but the fact that he is at the pointy end of mountain stages day after day is more startling. Some people are rewriting history by saying that Yates was a GT winner in waiting. I challenge anyone to say that they seen Yates winning this Giro before it started never mind witness the level of dominance we are seeing. The only person who appears not to be taken by surprise is Yates himself. There is a huge difference in finishing top 10 on GC and crushing everyone on the mountains day after day whilst dominating the GC. Even Froome looked knackered at the top of Zoncolan whereas Yates barely opened his mouth until about 3km from the top. Then was at the same high level again the next day.

It's the consistency of performance day in day out that sticks out. If he manages to retain pink tomorrow he would be best served to tone it down a bit and just ride on Dumoulin's wheel all the way to Rome or it will start to look ridiculous. I have a feeling that he will lose pink tomorrow though and then regain it before Rome.

 

[Jagartrott]

From seventh in last year's Tour, just ahead of the legend Meintjes, to cruising from one stage victory to the next while breathing through his nose. Now that's an evolution I believe in.

 

[Ripper]

Re:

Maybe its because he wants to win the race and is up against the world best time trialist and he needs to gain some time on him.

Just a thought.

LOL. He's made it clear that he needs time. That has nothing to do with his actual performance, unless you were wanting to make sure we understood the reasons Yates had to maximize doping to climb fast?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

When Yates wins this Giro the reasons why will be something like this :

* poor opposition
* we bought the best team
* the course was in his favour
* hè always could TT
* WE SECRETLY CHANGED HIS BODY WITH ADAM

What is obvious is hè is suddenly mindboggling good. A much better climber than Pinot? Not just but much much better.

Lets see what hè does tomorrow given the 1.25 minute loss in last years TT in the Tour over 23K?

 

[simoni]

Re:

True, but I don't correlate doping suspicion through who won a young jersey or who beats who by what amount of time. If it was that simple such logic would be made an WADA anti-doping rule violation!
His twin brother was 4th in 2016 Tour, 9th in 2017 Giro, so whatever is going on is going on with two riders and seems gradual progression up the top 10 of each Grand Tour by both at the same time.

We need to add "how wide a rider opens his mouth" to the suspicionometer too.

That belongs under the same category as "size of legs" and "fake coughs in post stage interviews".

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

Maybe its because he wants to win the race and is up against the world best time trialist and he needs to gain some time on him.

Just a thought.

LOL. He's made it clear that he needs time. That has nothing to do with his actual performance, unless you were wanting to make sure we understood the reasons Yates had to maximize doping to climb fast?

That was a response to the "why doesn't he make it look less obvious" comment somewhere above. The answer being, "because he needs more time in order to win"!

 

[red_flanders]

I'll happily accept that his performance on Zoncolan was superb and merits (sensible) discussion, treated either in isolation or as part of his two weeks so far.

I don't agree about yesterday - yes, 18kms sounds ridiculous at first glance but taken in context (i.e. 7km of it was downhill and he was being "chased" by a group that was more interested in fighing Dumoulin for second than trying to win the race) it really isn't what it first appears.

Note also that he was losing time to the Froome group before the serious part of the final climb.

I wonder if you’re giving enough weight to recovery in this analysis. Pretty amazing to do what he did after setting, what was it, a top 5 all-time performance on the Zoncolan the day before? Recovery might be the biggest factor separating good GT riders from winning GT riders.

It's the consistency of performance day in day out that sticks out. If he manages to retain pink tomorrow he would be best served to tone it down a bit and just ride on Dumoulin's wheel all the way to Rome or it will start to look ridiculous. I have a feeling that he will lose pink tomorrow though and then regain it before Rome.

Yes!

 

[simoni]

I'll happily accept that his performance on Zoncolan was superb and merits (sensible) discussion, treated either in isolation or as part of his two weeks so far.

I don't agree about yesterday - yes, 18kms sounds ridiculous at first glance but taken in context (i.e. 7km of it was downhill and he was being "chased" by a group that was more interested in fighing Dumoulin for second than trying to win the race) it really isn't what it first appears.

Note also that he was losing time to the Froome group before the serious part of the final climb.

I wonder if you’re giving enough weight to recovery in this analysis. Pretty amazing to do what he did after setting, what was it, a top 5 all-time performance on the Zoncolan the day before? Recovery might be the biggest factor separating good GT riders from winning GT riders.

It's the consistency of performance day in day out that sticks out. If he manages to retain pink tomorrow he would be best served to tone it down a bit and just ride on Dumoulin's wheel all the way to Rome or it will start to look ridiculous. I have a feeling that he will lose pink tomorrow though and then regain it before Rome.

Yes!

Recovery - certainly worth considering. But remember, everyone else rode Zoncolan all-out too.

I haven't seen the Zoncolan times so don't know where it stacks up but I have troble with that sort of analysis anyway as there's so many outside influences that can make a difference.

 

[red_flanders]

I'll happily accept that his performance on Zoncolan was superb and merits (sensible) discussion, treated either in isolation or as part of his two weeks so far.

I don't agree about yesterday - yes, 18kms sounds ridiculous at first glance but taken in context (i.e. 7km of it was downhill and he was being "chased" by a group that was more interested in fighing Dumoulin for second than trying to win the race) it really isn't what it first appears.

Note also that he was losing time to the Froome group before the serious part of the final climb.

I wonder if you’re giving enough weight to recovery in this analysis. Pretty amazing to do what he did after setting, what was it, a top 5 all-time performance on the Zoncolan the day before? Recovery might be the biggest factor separating good GT riders from winning GT riders.

It's the consistency of performance day in day out that sticks out. If he manages to retain pink tomorrow he would be best served to tone it down a bit and just ride on Dumoulin's wheel all the way to Rome or it will start to look ridiculous. I have a feeling that he will lose pink tomorrow though and then regain it before Rome.

Yes!

Recovery - certainly worth considering. But remember, everyone else rode Zoncolan all-out too.

I haven't seen the Zoncolan times so don't know where it stacks up but I have troble with that sort of analysis anyway as there's so many outside influences that can make a difference.

Agree, everyone did ride all-out, and he seems to have recovered better. Maybe natural ability, maybe not. There are issues with time analyses, but top 5 is top 5, especially when looking at the names of the one's who beat him. Maybe he was 6th, I can't recall exactly, but it's all a bunch of known dopers above him, and not by much.

On a climb as consistently steep as the Zoncolan with as many hills as came before it this year, other factors are dramatically minimized. I think it's an outstanding indicator of performance, and the rides this year are exceedingly difficult to imagine clean. Then to ride like that the next day? Reminds me of Fignon in '89 going nuts at the end of that race to consolidate yellow.

 

[Jagartrott]

Recovery - certainly worth considering. But remember, everyone else rode Zoncolan all-out too.

I haven't seen the Zoncolan times so don't know where it stacks up but I have troble with that sort of analysis anyway as there's so many outside influences that can make a difference.

You're right, the other top times up Zoncolan were in 2007 after a short flat stage, with that shining example of clean riding, Simoni (hey, what a coincidence), setting the fastest time.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

When Yates wins this Giro the reasons why will be something like this :

* poor opposition
* we bought the best team
* the course was in his favour
* hè always could TT
* WE SECRETLY CHANGED HIS BODY WITH ADAM

What is obvious is hè is suddenly mindboggling good. A much better climber than Pinot? Not just but much much better.

Lets see what hè does tomorrow given the 1.25 minute loss in last years TT in the Tour over 23K?

Of course!!! That's what it is! That last one! It's not that they've changed his body with his twin, it's trading places! As anybody who's ever watched pro wrestling can tell you, twins or matching masks can always change places without the opponents or referee being aware of it, ensuring a fresh man in competition at all times!

 

[samhocking]

Re:

Yates' performance on Zoncolan in isolation was suspicious but the fact that he is at the pointy end of mountain stages day after day is more startling. Some people are rewriting history by saying that Yates was a GT winner in waiting. I challenge anyone to say that they seen Yates winning this Giro before it started never mind witness the level of dominance we are seeing. The only person who appears not to be taken by surprise is Yates himself. There is a huge difference in finishing top 10 on GC and crushing everyone on the mountains day after day whilst dominating the GC. Even Froome looked knackered at the top of Zoncolan whereas Yates barely opened his mouth until about 3km from the top. Then was at the same high level again the next day.

It's the consistency of performance day in day out that sticks out. If he manages to retain pink tomorrow he would be best served to tone it down a bit and just ride on Dumoulin's wheel all the way to Rome or it will start to look ridiculous. I have a feeling that he will lose pink tomorrow though and then regain it before Rome.

For me, it was his 6th in La Vuelta 2016 that awoke me to thinking he would win a GT soon. Then his 2nd in Paris Nice and 2nd in Romandie it was obvious he was on his way to winning one really last year. The Vuelta 2016 he had Quintana, Froome, Chaves, Contador & Talanksy above him. Bit of a time gap, but he lost 3:45 in the ITT so without that, he was effectively on the podium with Froome & Quintana. He was not team leader either as Chaves was, so actually raced as a super dom for Chaves in last few mountains.

 

[May0maniac]

When Yates wins this Giro the reasons why will be something like this :

* poor opposition
* we bought the best team
* the course was in his favour
* hè always could TT
* WE SECRETLY CHANGED HIS BODY WITH ADAM

What is obvious is hè is suddenly mindboggling good. A much better climber than Pinot? Not just but much much better.

Lets see what hè does tomorrow given the 1.25 minute loss in last years TT in the Tour over 23K?

Of course!!! That's what it is! That last one! It's not that they've changed his body with his twin, it's trading places! As anybody who's ever watched pro wrestling can tell you, twins or matching masks can always change places without the opponents or referee being aware of it, ensuring a fresh man in competition at all times!

Sadly Adam raced in Cali durning the 2nd week of the Giro, I've made that joke before when they often performed well in stage races when only one of them was racing at that time and we never saw both of the doing well in the same stage race.