There is no way Cancellera is Clean!

[Hugh Januss]

so you would stop watching it when guys were NOT doped and it got boring? That is amazing and I would suggest you watch what is called the WWF... the world wrestling federation...or how about nascar and better oil commercials...things have really come full circle via the circle jerk on this site about doping...strongarm really got to you boys eh? I think alot of folks are doping, sure...but when you are suspect of every single winner with NO evidence (fabian C.) just give up the dope yourself and go to another sport where you can find pure doping...you are basically saying you are addicted to addicts...

I really tried to make some sense out of this. I guess maybe I am just not at your intellectual level, because I have no idea WTF you are trying to say.

 

[Maxiton]

Let's face it, if Eddie Merckx were just now coming on the scene we'd all of us swear that he is clearly on everyoxygen-vector substance, hormone, and designer drug known to science. But of course he actually came on the scene when nothing from those particular categories existed - and that is the only reason no one is making that claim.

In every generation since the beginning there are cyclists whose prowess and success are exponentially greater - way beyond - their competitors. Being among this group means you are gifted, and by definition exceptional. Your performances defy belief. Belief, defied, has always sought reconciliation with reality. This doesn't mean anyone is doping (though clearly many are) - it just means someone has done what you thought impossible.

If you're going to enjoy the sport you simply must give these riders the benefit of doubt. That's my view, anyway.

 

[rata de sentina]

Isn't your whole "point" that having a climb helped Contador and now you suddenly realized that Cancellara flew on the downhill?

Um, yeah, clearly Canc targeted that part of the course to make his maximum effort. Thanks for making my point even clearer.

 

[flicker]

Cancellera has a lot of heart and a nice TREK, nothing more needed.

 

[Benotti69]

Let's face it, if Eddie Merckx were just now coming on the scene we'd all of us swear that he is clearly on everyoxygen-vector substance, hormone, and designer drug known to science. But of course he actually came on the scene when nothing from those particular categories existed - and that is the only reason no one is making that claim.

In every generation since the beginning there are cyclists whose prowess and success are exponentially greater - way beyond - their competitors. Being among this group means you are gifted, and by definition exceptional. Your performances defy belief. Belief, defied, has always sought reconciliation with reality. This doesn't mean anyone is doping (though clearly many are) - it just means someone has done what you thought impossible.

If you're going to enjoy the sport you simply must give these riders the benefit of doubt. That's my view, anyway.

considering that rider's are doping and Canc can ride away from a group of rider's of whom some must be doped, kind of does not add to the argument that Canc is clean. In fact it is his 'unbelievable' performances that point to doping.

no one is that talented that they can beat doping with such apparent ease.

the 'dots' in Canc's case dont join up to a rider who is clean. Riding for Mapei, Riis and now the Schlecks hardly shows he picks clean teams and his performances are so OTT at the end of difficult monuments, leaves me errirng on the side of chemical enhancement. i wish it was otherwise

 

[Maxiton]

considering that rider's are doping and Canc can ride away from a group of rider's of whom some must be doped, kind of does not add to the argument that Canc is clean. In fact it is his 'unbelievable' performances that point to doping.

no one is that talented that they can beat doping with such apparent ease.

the 'dots' in Canc's case dont join up to a rider who is clean. Riding for Mapei, Riis and now the Schlecks hardly shows he picks clean teams and his performances are so OTT at the end of difficult monuments, leaves me errirng on the side of cheical enhancement. i wish it was otherwise

It's reasonable to assume the entire GC in any race is on a program of some kind. That general working assumption though is a very different thing from accusing a specific rider of doping based on nothing other than your feminine intuition. Absent any facts, or anything threatening to become fact, the accusation is unfair and ultimately pointless.

PS. Don't drink the bong water.

 

[ultimobici]

I'm a huge fan... but recognized that I was having the same emotional reaction to watching him win that I was having when Lance was working his "magic."

Yeah, his victories are a thing of beauty, but so was watching Pantani, Vandenbroucke, Armstrong and Contador.

I'm tired of false heroes.

Mechanical doping is BS, but...

Can't help but feel he's on a program?

Why?

He's spot on, on target when it matters and spot off otherwise?

Peaking with that precision is suspect?

Plus, purely speculative... he left the Vuelta, unexpectedly. Went Home, for family... showed up in Australia and won his fourth? Conjugal visit? ...or a charm of another sort... the vampire's kiss?

I am no fan of Cancellara. I can appreciate his ability but he isn't my kind of rider.

That said, he doesn't make me think he's on any programme because he seems to win "his" type of races and hasn't started to develop into a GT rider or mountain goat. That's where he and Indurain are different. Indurain's wins will always have a question mark after them due to the times rather than the rider. I find it hard to believe that a rider of his build could achieve 5 on the trot in that era without any "assistance". When Cancellara starts winning mountain stages a la Hincapie or LBL or Lombardy then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

As for the hero issue, if you're a fan of sport of any type and look at it in those sort of naive terms you're asking to have your dreams stamped on. They're all human and have the same frailties we all have, greed, vanity & pride.

 

[Benotti69]

It's reasonable to assume the entire GC in any race is on a program of some kind. That general working assumption though is a very different thing from accusing a specific rider of doping based on nothing other than your feminine intuition. Absent any facts, or anything threatening to become fact, the accusation is unfair and ultimately pointless.

PS. Don't drink the bong water.

absent of any facts apart from what we witnessed over the last 2 years in monuments, 'unbelievable' performances and since it is reasonable to assume programs of some kind when the guy wins the race by riding a la Canc, well, 'unbelievable' is the word i'll stick to using.

 

[rolfrae]

absent of any facts apart from what we witnessed over the last 2 years in monuments, 'unbelievable' performances and since it is reasonable to assume programs of some kind when the guy wins the race by riding a la Canc, well, 'unbelievable' is the word i'll stick to using.

Stijn Devolder also found it hard to believe:

"That's the most intense thing I've seen in my career," said the Belgian to Sporza and other news sources. "It was certainly not the opposition at the E3. He has beaten me speechless. All the riders who were at the front rubbed their eyes. It took me a day to get my head around it."

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7...ld-be-scared-of-Cancellara.aspx#ixzz1I5nvwtEA

 

[humble]

Just dropping in on this thread...

Whether Canc is enhanced or not is pure speculation. At the risk of offending wishful thinkers, it's not far fetched to assume that all the winners are chemically enhanced in one way or another in this sport, so let's focus on some other interesting facets of Canc's game. (which may have been previously covered, apologies, I have not followed the entire thread)

One fact that is above argument is that he is the pre-eminent time trial champion over relatively flat long distances. It should be no surprise, therefore, that once he get's off the front, he's difficult to catch.

Another differentiator is that he plans very carefully team support during the race, and his team executes very well. This allows him to be very careful about his energy use up to the moments he attacks, and overcome issues encountered race day, with well planned and practiced contingencies. The lack of race radio this year confirms - Stuey was there waiting - that was likely no accident at all. His bike changes are like watching F1 or NASCAR pit stops, flawless. There was a question of whether this race day team planning and execution was due to Riis or Canc, that question has been answered resoundingly after last Saturday's performance.

Be careful with comparisons to Boonen, a strong case can be made that the relative performance of Boonen over the past two seasons is more about Boonen's lost form and focus, as well as the weakening of the Quickstep team. Boonen relies much more on his team to keep him in touch, if his teammates struggle to keep Canc's wheel, he has to go on his own after Canc and he quickly cooks himself. I think Boonen with better support and better preparation could be more competitive, but the window is closing.

So I look at Canc's success, other things be equal as due to his unequaled time trialing, and his mastery of planning and execution of team support during races and the strength of his team.

/h

 

[Benotti69]

.

.

..
There was a question of whether this race day team planning and execution was due to Riis or Canc, that question has been answered resoundingly after last Saturday's performance.

.
.
.
.

Canc rides for the teamSchleck (AKA Leopard Twek) , and former cyclist Kim Andersen of multiple positives is the DS.

Stijn Devolder also found it hard to believe:

when cyclists make comments like that, for me they are pointing the finger and saying doper.

 

[Oldman]

Canc rides for the teamSchleck (AKA Leopard Twek) , and former cyclist Kim Andersen of multiple positives is the DS.




when cyclists make comments like that, for me they are pointing the finger and saying doper.

Every rider that saw it had a chagrined expression when asked to describe the attack. Maybe their finally coming around to expressing the truth?

 

[Yeahright]

Personally I am a real fan of Cancellara. There is always lots of suspicion, innuendo and guilt by association on these forums. At the end of the day he has never returned a positive over years of racing and winning and I don't expect that to change. I think that he is the most genetically gifted rider in the pro ranks for one day classic style courses.

It is very easy to point the finger and and say 'he must be on dope'. Even in a perfect world without dope there would still be a Cancellara type rider, just like there would be a Bertie in the hills and a Cav in the sprints and he would still be kicking *** and guys who struggle to hit 30 km/hr in a tail wind would still be shaking their heads and wondering what he must be on.

Imagine what Eddie must have been on all those years of grinding guys into the dust. Why is what Cancellara is doing on a more modest scale anymore surprising.

 

[Benotti69]

Personally I am a real fan of Cancellara. There is always lots of suspicion, innuendo and guilt by association on these forums. At the end of the day he has never returned a positive over years of racing and winning and I don't expect that to change. I think that he is the most genetically gifted rider in the pro ranks for one day classic style courses.

It is very easy to point the finger and and say 'he must be on dope'. Even in a perfect world without dope there would still be a Cancellara type rider, just like there would be a Bertie in the hills and a Cav in the sprints and he would still be kicking *** and guys who struggle to hit 30 km/hr in a tail wind would still be shaking their heads and wondering what he must be on.

Imagine what Eddie must have been on all those years of grinding guys into the dust. Why is what Cancellara is doing on a more modest scale anymore surprising.

when a rider of Devolder ability calls it "the most intense thing I've seen in my career" it sure doesn't register on the scale of modest.

In cycling not testing positive means jack shít with the corruption of the UCI and other federations. For all we know Canc might have returned a positive and we didn't hear about it.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

when a rider of Devolder ability calls it "the most intense thing I've seen in my career" it sure doesn't register on the scale of modest.

In cycling not testing positive means jack shít with the corruption of the UCI and other federations. For all we know Canc might have returned a positive and we didn't hear about it.

No sh*t!

I'm a big fan of Fab, and was able to catch the latter part of the race live. It was interesting for me to notice how my emotional reaction transformed from excitement at such a hard-*ssed bold move, to a bit confusion, to a lingering feeling of nauseau at how goofy he made the peloton look.

Stijn's comments are very revealing.

 

[Yeahright]

when a rider of Devolder ability calls it "the most intense thing I've seen in my career" it sure doesn't register on the scale of modest.

In cycling not testing positive means jack shít with the corruption of the UCI and other federations. For all we know Canc might have returned a positive and we didn't hear about it.

Firstly I was meaning modest in comparison to the dominance that Merckx showed in his career. Fast forward Eddie to today and this forum would be screaming doping en masse. I might add that Devolder is not even close to the calibre of Cancellara when he is peaking so, yes he may have found it intense.

Secondly, not testing positive is all you have to go on. Maybe i am not as paranoid as you seem to be but without evidence to the contrary all you are putting forward is idle speculation. I don't live my life from the viewpoint that all of the peloton are dirty until proven otherwise.

 

[Benotti69]

Firstly I was meaning modest in comparison to the dominance that Merckx showed in his career. Fast forward Eddie to today and this forum would be screaming doping en masse.

'Firstly' you cannot compare the generation of Merckx with today, due to a number of reasons. Riders today target races carefully and 'prepare' differently then in Merckx's day, so no comparison. Back then riders raced every race they could. Nowadays they pick and choose very carefully. Back then PEDs were more about recuperation after racing rather than enhancing performances.

I might add that Devolder is not even close to the calibre of Cancellara when he is peaking so, yes he may have found it intense.

Devolder is a pro and not a neo pro at that, this is 7th year in the peloton. I take what he says and the manner in which he comments about his fellow professionals not with a pinch of salt. Jury's are not made up of criminals, murderers and rapists in order to preside over trials in order to get convictions.

Secondly, not testing positive is all you have to go on. Maybe i am not as paranoid as you seem to be but without evidence to the contrary all you are putting forward is idle speculation. I don't live my life from the viewpoint that all of the peloton are dirty until proven otherwise.

'Secondly' if we were to wait until our suspicions are confirmed we wouldn't have the big investigation into Armstrong. We wouldn't have had the police investigate anything until they had a smoking gun. Cancellara's performances are questionable and it is right to question it when other's in the peloton are making the comments like Devolder's.

There were allegations that last years Flanders and Paris Roubaix were won by Canc because he had a motor in his bike. They didn't believe he could've ridden away from the peloton at the end of such difficult races. These type of performances lead to questions in a sport where positives are not Haley's Comet type of occurances.

If rider's are not happy with the accusations, well the power to change that is in their hands (or veins depending on yer perspective )

 

[veganrob]

'

If rider's are not happy with the accusations, well the power to change that is in their hands (or veins depending on yer perspective )

Not a more true statement made.

 

[Yeahright]

'Firstly' you cannot compare the generation of Merckx with today, due to a number of reasons. Riders today target races carefully and 'prepare' differently then in Merckx's day, so no comparison. Back then riders raced every race they could. Nowadays they pick and choose very carefully. Back then PEDs were more about recuperation after racing rather than enhancing performances.

That is not an answer to my comment. It has nothing to do with how many races they raced back in the day. My point was that Merckx was a far more dominant rider than Cancellara in terms of his win ratio. In sport that relies on athletic ability there will be guys who dominate their lesser competitors. Cancellara is no different. Look at Federer in his prime, did he have to be doped to win almost every match? No he was just better, end of story.



Devolder is a pro and not a neo pro at that, this is 7th year in the peloton. I take what he says and the manner in which he comments about his fellow professionals not with a pinch of salt. Jury's are not made up of criminals, murderers and rapists in order to preside over trials in order to get convictions.

He said he was amazed, does that infer he thinks Fab is on the juice? maybe or maybe not. The fact is that when Cancellara is peaking he is a cut above most other riders. I don't find that particularly suspicious.



'Secondly' if we were to wait until our suspicions are confirmed we wouldn't have the big investigation into Armstrong. We wouldn't have had the police investigate anything until they had a smoking gun. Cancellara's performances are questionable and it is right to question it when other's in the peloton are making the comments like Devolder's.

There were allegations that last years Flanders and Paris Roubaix were won by Canc because he had a motor in his bike. They didn't believe he could've ridden away from the peloton at the end of such difficult races. These type of performances lead to questions in a sport where positives are not Haley's Comet type of occurances.

The investigation into Armstrong came as a result of some serious allegations. i am not aware of any credible allegations being raised re Cancellara. If you are in the 'motor in his bike' camp then there is probably not any more I can say. The allegations were made by some idiot on youtube and did not have a shred of credibility within the pro ranks. A year on, bikes X-rayed and Cancellara is still smoking them.



Sorry about the fail on the quotations. Haven't got the hang of splitting quotes yet!

 

[sniper]

snip
[/B]

Think about it, how is the UCI ever going to allow a guy like Fab to test positive? The guy is handsome, and not only is he Germanic, he's Swiss. The guy has the qualities to attract millions of viewers and fans, especially if he wins.
Fab testing positive? don't bet on it.

 

[Offtheback]

*** deleted by mod ***

 

[Benotti69]

That is not an answer to my comment. It has nothing to do with how many races they raced back in the day. My point was that Merckx was a far more dominant rider than Cancellara in terms of his win ratio. In sport that relies on athletic ability there will be guys who dominate their lesser competitors. Cancellara is no different. Look at Federer in his prime, did he have to be doped to win almost every match? No he was just better, end of story.

Again you cannot compare Merckx with Canc. Different generations. I bet Merckx wouldn't race the same way today as he did in his prime. So as i said you cannot compare them in any way.

It is a sport that relies on athletic ability that is a given. But when a guy like Armstrong pre cancer can only finish 1 TdF then after '98 wins 7 in a row there is more to it than athletic ability.

Federer, Tennis doesnt have a testing program thats worth even mentioning. Nadal hasn't tested positive either

He said he was amazed, does that infer he thinks Fab is on the juice? maybe or maybe not. The fact is that when Cancellara is peaking he is a cut above most other riders. I don't find that particularly suspicious.

Devolder's comment was he had never seen anything as intense like that in his racing career. Big difference from 'amazed'. I find it speaks a lot.

The investigation into Armstrong came as a result of some serious allegations. i am not aware of any credible allegations being raised re Cancellara. If you are in the 'motor in his bike' camp then there is probably not any more I can say. The allegations were made by some idiot on youtube and did not have a shred of credibility within the pro ranks. A year on, bikes X-rayed and Cancellara is still smoking them.

Davide Cassani cast some credibility on the allegations. I am not in the 'motor on his bike camp', but the UCI took the allegation serious enough to introduce a test for the bikes.

But as you say Canc is 'smoking' them.

Jan Ullrich said "Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help" and IMO is continuing to happen in cycling.

 

[sniper]

Again you cannot compare Merckx with Canc. Different generations. I bet Merckx wouldn't race the same way today as he did in his prime. So as i said you cannot compare them in any way.

It is a sport that relies on athletic ability that is a given. But when a guy like Armstrong pre cancer can only finish 1 TdF then after '98 wins 7 in a row there is more to it than athletic ability.

Federer, Tennis doesnt have a testing program thats worth even mentioning. Nadal hasn't tested positive either




Devolder's comment was he had never seen anything as intense like that in his racing career. Big difference from 'amazed'. I find it speaks a lot.




Davide Cassani cast some credibility on the allegations. I am not in the 'motor on his bike camp', but the UCI took the allegation serious enough to introduce a test for the bikes.

But as you say Canc is 'smoking' them.

Jan Ullrich said "Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help" and IMO is continuing to happen in cycling.

indeed, it's about putting one and one together.
but don't forget that connecting dots is a hell of a task when you're wearing blinders.

 

[Ferminal]

Cancellara didn't win => Clean

 

[sniper]

Cancellara didn't win => Clean

Clearly, there was to much pressure on Fab. Juice works adversely if you're under too much pressure

not to give myself credit, but I do remember predicting the rise of Saxo-bank riders this season. At the moment, nobody knows how to prepare his riders better than Riis. And don't expect any positives from Saxo-bank this year. These guys are having masking agents for breakfast.