Thor has "never seen doping"

[ingsve]

It's perfectly plausible that he's never seen dope himself if he has never done any himself. Especially on a team like CA.

Have you ever seen any reports of riders shooting up over breakfast? What you usually hear is the type of thing where they went to a different hotel for a short while to get their injections or whatever like Kohl talked about. It's plausible that riders that do take stuff are very careful who they do it in front of since you don't know who you can really trust. Especially on a team where the manager has a very strict antidoping stance.

And the argument that everyone is doping is just stupid. Even during the early 90s when we know that doping was rampant it was still only 80% of the riders that actually took stuff. And that's what the people who cheated say themselves. And I dare say that doping is less frequent today than in the very early 90s when everyone knew that it was impossible to get caught.

 

[Mambo95]

So wait a minute Mambo: you're using an example of two ex-pros talking about drugs to show that Thor is clean? Yes Vaughters is saying that CA did not have a team doping program at the time Jonathan rode for them. But that's a very far cry from a top rider saying that he's "never seen doping" in the sport.

Furthermore, one man's assertion that CA did not have a team program 10 years ago says exactly zero about Thor being clean today.

I honestly cannot believe how absolutely gullible some of you people remain despite all the constant doping news that comes out regarding doping in cycling over the years. Have you ever heard the term "willfull ignorance" Mambo?

It's not willfull ignorance. It's just looking at the evidence before me and then making up my mind. Not deciding everyone is doping and then fitting the evidence to that opinion.

The exchange shows that there was no team program at CA when Hushovd joined them. It appears unlikely, in view of Legeay's views and the law in France that they would sudden start one. Their ever declining results while Thor was there doesn't seem to suggest otherwise.

If someone was doing it on the sly, they're hardly going to do in front of team mates.

You're problem is that you're not really interested in cycling - just the doping side of it. (You only seem to stray into the racing section to bash Radioshack). You stay here where you can feel all superior, in the belief that you know the 'truth' and everyone else is naive (much in the manner of Moon Hoax believers). The idea that cycling is getting cleaner and clean riders are winning races greatly threatens that position, so you rail against it.

There are three groups that believe 'everyone's at it:

1. Doctors/DSs trying to get riders to dope
2. Dopers who have been caught and are trying to excuse themselves
3. Self-righteous fans of doping scandals, who think they are cleaning up the sport by labelling everyone dopers.

 

[Chuffy]

I honestly cannot believe how absolutely gullible some of you people remain despite all the constant doping news that comes out regarding doping in cycling over the years. Have you ever heard the term "willfull ignorance" Mambo?

No, not gullible and it's not wilful ignorance. I just dislike the comfort-blanket cynicism that some people on here cling to. It's as if they've had their fingers so badly burnt by believing in the likes of Ullrich, Big Tex and the rest that they've gone to the opposite extreme, of refusing to accept that anyone can possibly be clean. After all, if you believe that they're all dirty, how can you ever be proved wrong?

It's childish, simplistic and lazy.

 

[ultimobici]

The exchange shows that there was no team program at CA when Hushovd joined them. It appears unlikely, in view of Legeay's views and the law in France that they would sudden start one. Their ever declining results while Thor was there doesn't seem to suggest otherwise.

If someone was doing it on the sly, they're hardly going to do in front of team mates.

And the terms of the contract that GAN had with him while Lemond was there.

 

[ThorFolerSegSterkIDagDu]

I dont think Thor has ever blood doped.

 

[Hugh Januss]

No, not gullible and it's not wilful ignorance. I just dislike the comfort-blanket cynicism that some people on here cling to. It's as if they've had their fingers so badly burnt by believing in the likes of Ullrich, Big Tex and the rest that they've gone to the opposite extreme, of refusing to accept that anyone can possibly be clean. After all, if you believe that they're all dirty, how can you ever be proved wrong?

It's childish, simplistic and lazy.

Not to mention realistic, if you accept the science of what degree of improvement in strength modern forms of doping offer.
I interpreted Thor's quote to mean that he is afraid of needles and so kept his eyes shut.

 

[neineinei]

"dop" means illegal drugs in Norwegain, both performance enhancing in sports, like EPO or anabolic steroids, and the party type like cocain, marihuana, LSD and whatnot. "doping" tends to mean only performance enhancing drugs.

So to me what he is saying is "I have never seen illegal drugs in the bike community." (...oh now you might take that as if I'm saying I've been hanging with people who use cocain or marihuana when partying, so I have to add: ) "I've never seen any illegal drugs while partying either." He is also saying "If I had wanted doping I could have gotten hold of it", so clearly he has heard of it even if hasn't seen it.

The really stupid thing he has said the last weeks is this though:

"- Han står sikkert fritt til å komme til en VM-by, men han har jo ingenting på en antidoping-konferanse å gjøre."

"- He is probably free to come to a World Championship city, but he has no business beeing at an antidoping conferance." (This is about Landis in Geelong.)

http://www.tv2sporten.no/sykkel/raser-mot-landisdeltagelse-3299260.html

 

[BroDeal]

The really stupid thing he has said the last weeks is this though:

"- Han står sikkert fritt til å komme til en VM-by, men han har jo ingenting på en antidoping-konferanse å gjøre."

"- He is probably free to come to a World Championship city, but he has no business beeing at an antidoping conferance." (This is about Landis in Geelong.)

http://www.tv2sporten.no/sykkel/raser-mot-landisdeltagelse-3299260.html

Every time Vaughters or one of his riders speak about doping, my opinion of Garmin goes down another notch. It looks more and more like the Hog mocking the anti-doping teams for insincerity was not done just out of spite.

Thor will fit right in with Saint Millar and his ridiculous comments about Landis and others.

 

[loydfloyd32]

No, not gullible and it's not wilful ignorance. I just dislike the comfort-blanket cynicism that some people on here cling to. It's as if they've had their fingers so badly burnt by believing in the likes of Ullrich, Big Tex and the rest that they've gone to the opposite extreme, of refusing to accept that anyone can possibly be clean. After all, if you believe that they're all dirty, how can you ever be proved wrong?

It's childish, simplistic and lazy.

No,no,no never burned, just accepted the way it is. After the festina scandal I realised that riders produsing the best results always turn out to be dopers. This has proven right for me time and time again. If you're outstanding then you doped. That's just the way it is. I still want to see Vino, Ricco, Basso, Landis and all the other great characters. In my eyes they are still great fun to watch. The other riders being up there and hasn't got caught yet, just hasn't got caught yet.

I don't care, just give me spectacular riding, with great characters. When top riders get caught I really feel sad, but not burned.

 

[goggalor]

So basically, Thor was asked if he had seen doping in cycling, and he answered no? The other option being to say yes and list all the riders he's seen dope?

This is a non-story.

 

[hrotha]

I don't know if all winners dope. What I do know is that saying "they all dope" doesn't lead to a good discussion. We need at least some semi-decent rumours or unbelievable performances to count someone among the dopers.

Cycling today is not the same as in the mid 90s, and Mottet still won some races at the height of the EPO era.
edit: yes, I know Mottet was a huge talent and he could only win small races towards the end of his career; that's not the point

 

[olimpic]

So basically, Thor was asked if he had seen doping in cycling, and he answered no? The other option being to say yes and list all the riders he's seen dope?

This is a non-story.

aah thank you!

Some years ago another norwegian athlete answered that he thought there could be doped athletes in the upcoming wc in his sport (biathlon). The media and athletes from others countries gave him hell from just saying that.

...of course there have been doping cases since that

 

[scribe]

I don't what to p1ss on your chips here, but that's a completely different sport.

Ack! My chips!!

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

We should throw them all into a river, each with an anvil chained around his neck. Any cyclist who floats is not a doper.

 

[jimmypop]

Amazing! The current world champion is actually a disabled athlete - blind *and* deaf!

Three cheers for Thor! Proof that others with disabilities can succeed at sport.

 

[BikeCentric]

You're problem is that you're not really interested in cycling - just the doping side of it. (You only seem to stray into the racing section to bash Radioshack). You stay here where you can feel all superior, in the belief that you know the 'truth' and everyone else is naive (much in the manner of Moon Hoax believers). The idea that cycling is getting cleaner and clean riders are winning races greatly threatens that position, so you rail against it.

There are three groups that believe 'everyone's at it:

1. Doctors/DSs trying to get riders to dope
2. Dopers who have been caught and are trying to excuse themselves
3. Self-righteous fans of doping scandals, who think they are cleaning up the sport by labelling everyone dopers.

You're doing quite a lot of a$$-u-me ing here. My observation is that pretty much everyone in contention in the pros is doped and I could care less about attempting to identify who is clean anymore. I still watch the races for the spectacle of good racing and yet I do not root for or identify with any of the riders. History has shown time and again that those who are in contention in the pro races are usually dopers and I don't see any signs of the sport cleaning up. I don't see how on Earth you could contend that the idea that cycling is getting cleaner "threatens" me; it's quite a lot of extremely amateur armchair psychoanalysis done through a computer screen though so I commend you for that - you certainly must be the next Freud.

I have not done any posting in the racing section of this forum since the TDF because another one of my observations about this sport is that most of its English speaking fans are total idiots and I'm not really interested in discussing the racing with anyone anymore, I simply watch it. At this point my opinion is that the main problem with pro cycling is that the vast majority of the remaining fans are morons.

 

[Elagabalus]

At this point my opinion is that the main problem with pro cycling is that the vast majority of the remaining fans are morons.

Don't sugar coat it! Give it to us straight!!

 

[BikeCentric]

Don't sugar coat it! Give it to us straight!!

Okay let me caveat that statement then: I mainly meant the remaining English speaking fans. I'll bet most of the Euro fans never had any illusions.

 

[Elagabalus]

I don't know if all winners dope. What I do know is that saying "they all dope" doesn't lead to a good discussion. We need at least some semi-decent rumours or unbelievable performances to count someone among the dopers.

Cycling today is not the same as in the mid 90s, and Mottet still won some races at the height of the EPO era.
edit: yes, I know Mottet was a huge talent and he could only win small races towards the end of his career; that's not the point

Thank you! And I'm pretty sure if you asked Mottet if he saw any doping he would have said Non. Come on, somethings are like High School. The "stoners" never lit up in front of you either. Although you heard rumors ...

 

[enrecul]

norwegian

whats the norwegian for omerta?

 

[andybb]

It's omerta? On another note, Hushovd rode for a "crappy" french team that spoke against doping for nearly ten years as a pro, and Norway doesn't have the same doping culture as several other countries longer south in Europe. But it seems unlikely that hasn't seen anything throughout his long career.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I love watching him race, and he seems like a friendly sort, but this is akin to the US military's "Don't ask, don't tell" policy about gays, while they all pretend to ignore the giant white elephant in the room.

There's a good chance he never has doped, but there's also very easy to read between the lines to believe he knew exactly which people to avoid/ask, and which doors to avoid/open regarding doping. If he's telling the total truth here, he simply did a good job of not looking and not asking, so he never had to tell.

 

[BikeCentric]

So clearly a lot of you guys really believe a pro can win the World Championship RR clean? Maybe this deserves it's own thread but I'm really curious why many of you think a rider can win a long one-day race of attrition like the Worlds clean when we know for a fact that pretty much the whole podiums of Classics like LBL, PR, and RVV have been implicated in doping going back about 20 years. So a lot of you think the Worlds is just much easier than those Classics or the riders don't care as much or something? Or you're just delusional?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

aah thank you!

Some years ago another norwegian athlete answered that he thought there could be doped athletes in the upcoming wc in his sport (biathlon). The media and athletes from others countries gave him hell from just saying that.

...of course there have been doping cases since that

Really? Because such comments aren't uncommon in biathlon.

For example...

Bjorn Ferry after narrowly missing out on bronze at the worlds: "I have not given up yet. He (Deryzemlya) has to take a leak first and then we'll see. I know who he is, but he tends to end up around 30th place rather than 3rd. I would not be surprised if he was caught, but it's very rare so I guess he wont be.

Some compete very little in the World Cup and then pop up at the championships and go really fast. One might think that it seems weird.

Wada and independent organizations should do all the testing, not international federations. I don't think they want any scandals."

Ted Armgren: "Among these skiers are also certain you do not want to see. Doping-swine Iaroschenko arrived today. He is banned until December, but seems to have come here to prepare with some training buddies. If you ask me, he should pack his bags, head back east and get a new job. They say you should give people a second chance, but I remain doubtful..."

Wolfgang Pichler (a coach):

After a russian tested positive at the 2008 worlds: “We have to be serious about the doping problems in our sport. In the last winter Olympics in Torino Russian Olga Pyleva delivered a positive doping test. So did Natalja Burdiga in last year’s summer Grand Prix. If there is another positive Russian doping test something has to be done.

We have seen examples of suspended athletes coming back after two years’ suspension, pretending nothing has happened. Or where their national team just presents new athletes that fill the positions. The rules are not strict enough and something better has to be done. Therefore we ask on behalf of the trainers and athletes, that nations which obviously are not afraid of cheating, must be punished.

We must do more, we have had five cases in the last two years. The good reputation of Biathlon is at stake."

After 3 russians tested positive for EPO in 2009: "I am not surprised. I have always suspected that the Russians were on something. Three at the same race - it cannot be anything but systematic and it has been going on for many years. I think the whole team take drugs.

Putin should stop the team from going to the Worlds. If not Putin, then the IBU must stop them. The best punishment is if the nation cannot start in international competitions for a year or two. If they have some character themselves they will withdraw from the Olympics. Then the next Olympics will be at home in Sochi in 2014 and it would get the Russian federation to clean up. If they do not do it themselves, the IBU must force them."

Pichler explains that several national team coaches in a meeting during the World Cup finals in Oslo last spring called for tougher sentencing by the IBU.

"We said then that if a nation has two or more doping cases in two years, the entire national team should be sanctioned.

This damages our sport tremendously. Look at the sport of cycling - it is dead in Germany today.

Look at the ski times for the Russians at the Worlds - they were not believable. Take Achatova for example: she was poor all season last year and then she came to the Worlds and was great. We talked a lot about it. That something was not right, but we could not accuse them of doping without proof.

I am quite sure that we have lost medals because they doped. They beat us in the mixed relay at the World Championships last year, for example. I cannot imagine that they were clean then."

After the form of the non-caught russians declined shortly thereafter: "I think they are clean now, at the moment. Just look at their ski times. If I meet them, I will ask: "What happened to your ski times?" It applies to Sleptsova and the others. Where is their ski form? Where has it gone since the doping cases? Have you lost it? They all ski considerably slower.

There are six positive doping tests. Three times Jarosjenko, twice Ahkatova and Jourijeva. Yet they try to portray it as if they are victims."

He claims he has most of the other nations behind them in their attacks on Russia, but understand that not many are called out and publicly voice her opinion.

"I think it is not always so easy. There are many who have one-year contracts. They are afraid to do it now, but I understand it. I speak on behalf of the coaches. I am more than happy to do so.

I am just so angry with doping. They do not know what it costs us. Ask the sponsors, ask everyone."

Do you fear that the same will happen here as in the Tour de France, where the major TV channels pulled out?

"Of course. The Russians do not understand it. We have real problems. They are so negative for our sport."

Mattias Nilsson after the flurry of russian EPO positives: "Yep it was time for the news I've been waiting for all weekend. The rumors have gone, russian biathletes doped. Why are we not surprised? And the others will act as if they did not know anything."

Anna Carin Olofsson-Zidek on Anastazia Kuzmina's Olympic gold: "Maybe her top form arrived with the mail?"

Staffan Eklund (coach) on Kuzmina: "I would like to know what secrets she has and how she managed to peak so impressively right now."

Magdalena Neuner:

In 2007: "I am very disappointed with the IBU. I was not drug tested a single time from April to October. This is also true for every other biathlete I know personally. This is totally unacceptable."

About the russians: "You congratulated them honestly when they beat you and they smile in your face. It makes my stomach turn."

"This is on the one hand harmful for the reputation of the sport, but on the other hand, it is good that it came out. Finally, someone has been caught."

"They (the remaining russians) are in an extremely good mood. They sit at the table and laugh and the atmosphere is great. I don't understand how they can be so good-humored. I think it's just totally disappointing and sad that they all act as if nothing had happened."

Asked if the sport is clean: "It would be naive to say yes. Clearly it isn't, because there has been doping cases.
We want tighter controls."

"A good performance does not fall from the sky." (don't remember if this was directed at anyone in particular)

 

[andybb]

Hushovd has taken his time to adapt to this long classic races, so yes, I believe it is possible. It's only for the past couple of years he has managed to be there in the final in the final of the long and hard races. Paris-Roubaix, and this year he was in the final of the WC. He has built up a very good endurance now. His performances haven't been that good although he climbs well for his weight. And he is from Norway...