Tom Danielson

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re:

For the same reason, though, I wouldn’t yet rule out contamination of some supplement. Of all the riders who upon testing positive insisted their innocence, TD strikes me as one of the most credible. Did he really have that much to gain here? He won this race twice before, it’s not that big a deal, anyway, and he’s going to retire soon. I guess you could argue that since he was already sanctioned once, he has a dirty reputation and therefore not much to lose, either. But still doesn’t make much sense, IMO.

Testosterone in a supplement? Nah, not buying it. Either he was target tested or he had a higher than usual TE- rating and thus they did the special test afterwards. A rider his age doesnt make mistakes with supplements of dubious makers, is my take on it.

And yes, I think he was going to peak for Utah, as his last goodbye to cycling, pretty sad actually.

 

[Merckx index]

If a rider is taking a supplement, he doesn't just take it once, he takes a week's worth at least. So internal testing should have picked it up

That makes the contaminant more difficult to detect, not easier. The more supplement the athlete is taking, the lower the level of contamination necessary to result in a positive test. Or, since most batches of the supplement may be clean, the smaller the proportion of contaminated supplement necessary to result in a positive test. Also, when you have to test large numbers of supplements--I'm now referring to some company that performs the test, not a particular team, which I rather doubt tests supplements at all--you don't necessarily use the more sensitive and more expensive assays that are increasingly being used on riders.

Do you think they test for synthetic testosterone in their internal testing?
I doubt it.

The T/E test is designed to detect synthetic testosterone. They should use that in internal testing, and if it comes back positive, then yes, I would assume they would move on to the isotope test.

Anything that would show up as supplement contamination would not be classified as "synthetic testosterone".
Further, anything that would be ingested orally would need to have the C17 molecule modified to handle first pass- otherwise it wouldnt work- and as such, would also have a very short half life. The only suitable oral steroid would be either Winstrol or Anavar, both of which clear very rapidly.

Im guessing Test Enanthate or Test Cypionate. Test Prop is a possibility, but less likely.

I have no idea whether any of these might be present in a supplement. Keep in mind, though, that while some contaminants are basically intentional, many are accidental, the result of by-products in the synthesis of the active components, or even literally contaminants in the synthetic hardware. So if it was a contaminant, it might not necessarily have a relatively long half-life, and TD might still test positive, depending on when he took it and when he was tested. But if it did have a short half-life, TD should know when he took the supplement and probably have some of it available for analysis.

 

[TheMight]

Re: Re:

Testosterone in a supplement? Nah, not buying it. Either he was target tested or he had a higher than usual TE- rating and thus they did the special test afterwards. A rider his age doesnt make mistakes with supplements of dubious makers, is my take on it.

And yes, I think he was going to peak for Utah, as his last goodbye to cycling, pretty sad actually.

Didn't Scott Moninger make a pretty convincing case that he had some contaminated supplements? He still sat out but had some independent testing show his supplements had a contamination in them. now whether or not that happens with testosterone is a good question...

Are they under pressure to get results? From here, if they're doping, it looks like they're doing it wrong.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Of all the riders who upon testing positive insisted their innocence, TD strikes me as one of the most credible. Did he really have that much to gain here? He won this race twice before, it’s not that big a deal, anyway, and he’s going to retire soon. I guess you could argue that since he was already sanctioned once, he has a dirty reputation and therefore not much to lose, either. But still doesn’t make much sense, IMO.

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Testosterone in a supplement? Nah, not buying it. Either he was target tested or he had a higher than usual TE- rating and thus they did the special test afterwards. A rider his age doesnt make mistakes with supplements of dubious makers, is my take on it.

And yes, I think he was going to peak for Utah, as his last goodbye to cycling, pretty sad actually.

Didn't Scott Moninger make a pretty convincing case that he had some contaminated supplements? He still sat out but had some independent testing show his supplements had a contamination in them. now whether or not that happens with testosterone is a good question...

Are they under pressure to get results? From here, if they're doping, it looks like they're doing it wrong.

A more famous example would be Rui Costa and his brother. Positive test for something, immediately sent the remainder of the supplement to a WADA-accredited lab, proven to be contaminated with the substance they tested positive for, ban quashed, disqualifications limited to the race the positive was in.

Anyway, Jimmy Engoulvent is always a guy worth keeping your eye on when situations like this develop. He talks the right talk pretty consistently. And called out Geoffroy Lequatre on the "leave Lance alone" stuff.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

His training camps and coaching no doubt get a boost from his racing results too.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

Yes it would make sense for him, just remember all the talk about Jens going full retarn to win the Deutschlandrundfahrt.
I wonder if anyone has ever bought contaminated supplements on purpose, just to have an excuse if you get popped on synthetic testosterone.
Ask a friend to order some shady chinese supplements on the internet, ask another one to send some of it to a WADA-accredited lab to be sure that they are contaminated with the "right" substance and keep the rest of it as a backup plan/excuse if you get busted for synthetic testosterone.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

His training camps and coaching no doubt get a boost from his racing results too.

I am kind of stunned that Tommy D can make outside money on camps, fondos, etc. Here in my hometown of Durango he has been reviled for years as a doper by the cycling community. Nobody here would be buying his services anytime soon. His first wife divorced him over the amount of doping he was engaging in at the time. The guy is not the sharpest tool in the box, probably assumed that he had license to dope as long as it was just a US stage race.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

His training camps and coaching no doubt get a boost from his racing results too.

I am kind of stunned that Tommy D can make outside money on camps, fondos, etc. Here in my hometown of Durango he has been reviled for years as a doper by the cycling community. Nobody here would be buying his services anytime soon. His first wife divorced him over the amount of doping he was engaging in at the time. The guy is not the sharpest tool in the box, probably assumed that he had license to dope as long as it was just a US stage race.

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

I am kind of stunned that Tommy D can make outside money on camps, fondos, etc. Here in my hometown of Durango he has been reviled for years as a doper by the cycling community. Nobody here would be buying his services anytime soon. His first wife divorced him over the amount of doping he was engaging in at the time. The guy is not the sharpest tool in the box, probably assumed that he had license to dope as long as it was just a US stage race.

If you were at the ToCA during the Floyd fairness or let Levi ride years, you would probably have a lower opinion of cycling fans. I found that the stereotype of the cultured or worldly cyclist does not prove true. Americans like winners!!! (and don't seem to care too much what they win)

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Re:

Didn't Scott Moninger make a pretty convincing case that he had some contaminated supplements? He still sat out but had some independent testing show his supplements had a contamination in them. now whether or not that happens with testosterone is a good question...

Scott's positive was 13 years ago (2002). You'd sorta hope that we wouldn't still be talking about guys "accidentally" ingesting something in an other-the-counter supplement in 2015.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

His training camps and coaching no doubt get a boost from his racing results too.

I am kind of stunned that Tommy D can make outside money on camps, fondos, etc. Here in my hometown of Durango he has been reviled for years as a doper by the cycling community. Nobody here would be buying his services anytime soon. His first wife divorced him over the amount of doping he was engaging in at the time. The guy is not the sharpest tool in the box, probably assumed that he had license to dope as long as it was just a US stage race.

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

Yes, Levi has a Gran Fondo and probably makes a nice bit of coin coaching. Tyler Hamilton makes a living coaching and Tommy D would have before this. He still might, there's a lot of people in Boulder that would pay (doper or not) to learn how to be a better cyclist.

 

[Merckx index]

I went back to the thread that I started after Contador lost his CAS case. Here is the link I posted at that time to a report by NZVT, the Netherlands Security System, which tests various supplements, and if it can’t detect any banned substances, gives them its seal of approval:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465258/?tool=pubmed

In addition to the problem of intentional spiking of contaminants, they note that contamination can occur accidentally:

The difficulty of finding possible contaminations of a nutritional supplement was shown in one of the very first studies addressing this problem. A group from an anti‐doping laboratory in Los Angeles, California, USA [Don Catlin] proved the existence of tablet‐to‐tablet variation in contaminations.24 This variation was confirmed later that year17 and is still likely to exist. The experiences from the laboratories show that contaminations can be present in the raw materials that are used, both in the active ingredients and in the substances used to make tablets or capsules. This type of contamination is often referred to as “cross‐contamination”. A second source of contamination might result from a lack of sufficient hygiene in the machinery that is being used during the production process.

The article goes on to list testosterone specifically as a contaminant found in some supplements, and notes that "contaminations in nutritional supplements are most likely to occur with substances that are part of the groups of anabolic agents or stimulants."

In November 2001, the athletes nominated to go to the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City 2002 were given an opportunity to have their supplements tested for doping substances. They were asked to buy a supply of the nutritional supplements they were going to use during their preparation for the Olympics from a controlled sample of one batch. From this supply, a random selection of supplements was tested for several anabolic steroids, their precursors, and several stimulants.

The results of this preliminary study gave a clear insight of the seriousness, size, and scope of the problem. Of the 69 supplements that were submitted (mainly vitamins, minerals and creatine), 13 (19%) contained unlabelled doping substances.42 Most products showed traces of caffeine and/or ephedrine, one product contained a small amount of 3,4‐methylenedioxymethamphetamine (better known as MDMA or XTC), and five products contained anabolic steroids. By pure chance, two different batches of one single product were tested as well, yielding one positive and one negative finding.

Now this was quite a while ago, and as McR notes, athletes are well aware of the dangers of taking supplements now, or should be. But many still do, and supplements are not any cleaner, because they aren't required to be:

These results were reported to the relevant public authorities. The local authorities took appropriate steps to eradicate the amphetamine traces from the public food supply, but concluded that this particular issue is not a concern from a public health perspective but is first and foremost a sport and a doping problem, as the trace amounts found in supplements would not endanger general health.

The NZVT then notes its own criteria:

Based on the published facts that a precursor of an anabolic steroid in an amount between 1–10 μg can cause a positive doping test,18,24 and based on the fact that athletes easily use 50 g of supplements per day or more, a reporting threshold value of 10 ng/g or 10 ppb for all anabolic steroids is used in all tests. This value also allows for individual variations in metabolism. Excretion studies for stimulants are rare, but similar considerations led to the conclusion that for stimulants, a reporting threshold value of 100 ppb is opportune.

The 1-10 ug estimate is probably lower now. I think WADA uses MS to detect testosterone initially, and that should have a limit of < 1 ng/ml, or less than 200 ng in a urine sample, maybe ten times lower than that. There are some newer methods that can detect as little as 10 pg/ml. So while the 10 ng/g threshold sounds reasonable, it's not close to the detection limit, and if it's still in force, a sample that tested clean, if taken in large quantities by an athlete, might result in a positive test.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.[/quote]


He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.[/quote]

His training camps and coaching no doubt get a boost from his racing results too.[/quote]

I am kind of stunned that Tommy D can make outside money on camps, fondos, etc. Here in my hometown of Durango he has been reviled for years as a doper by the cycling community. Nobody here would be buying his services anytime soon. His first wife divorced him over the amount of doping he was engaging in at the time. The guy is not the sharpest tool in the box, probably assumed that he had license to dope as long as it was just a US stage race. [/quote]

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?[/quote]
Yes, Levi has a Gran Fondo and probably makes a nice bit of coin coaching. Tyler Hamilton makes a living coaching and Tommy D would have before this. He still might, there's a lot of people in Boulder that would pay (doper or not) to learn how to be a better cyclist.[/quote]

I guess for me the issue is that both Tyler and Levi have at least admitted that they have doped. Tyler has obviously been very outspoken about given that 60 minutes piece he did with CBS. I would have little problem with the work that both of them have done post their professional careers. I can forgive almost anything dopers do if they fess up and make a mea culpa. IMHO Tommy D is just an unrepentant idiot.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

I guess for me the issue is that both Tyler and Levi have at least admitted that they have doped. Tyler has obviously been very outspoken about given that 60 minutes piece he did with CBS. I would have little problem with the work that both of them have done post their professional careers. I can forgive almost anything dopers do if they fess up and make a mea culpa. IMHO Tommy D is just an unrepentant idiot.

Uhmm, Tyler Hamilton didn't fess up the day after his second offence, he blessed us with an excuse worthy of the doping excuse hall of fame. Levi fessed up in exactly the same way that Tommy D did the first time, by turning evidence against Lance to receive a sweetheart deal.

If you thought that those two would have done anything different than our subject here, you're sadly mistaken. It's very rare that a cyclist doesn't say EXACTLY what TD said on twitter last night.

 

[TMP402]

Ouch

https://twitter.com/TheDPate/status/628309783662198784

 

[proffate]

Re: Re:

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

Levi has a fondo
Dave Z has some nutz cream
Hincapie has a clothing company
Chris Carmichael has a coaching company
Pretty much everyone has a book out

What rider hasn't parlayed their doping successes into other forms of income? CVV maybe.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

Levi has a fondo
Dave Z has some nutz cream
Hincapie has a clothing company
Chris Carmichael has a coaching company
Pretty much everyone has a book out

What rider hasn't parlayed their doping successes into other forms of income? CVV maybe.

He was doing commentary for TdF, I think for NBC?

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

Levi has a fondo
Dave Z has some nutz cream
Hincapie has a clothing company
Chris Carmichael has a coaching company
Pretty much everyone has a book out

What rider hasn't parlayed their doping successes into other forms of income? CVV maybe.

He was doing commentary for TdF, I think for NBC?

This^^^ Beat me to it.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

Levi has a fondo
Dave Z has some nutz cream
Hincapie has a clothing company
Chris Carmichael has a coaching company
Pretty much everyone has a book out

What rider hasn't parlayed their doping successes into other forms of income? CVV maybe.

Hincapie has a clothing company, a fancy hotel and a bike racing team. Not bad for a career of doping.

CVV is a TV commentator at present.

 

[Kennf1]

Re: Re:

Didn't Scott Moninger make a pretty convincing case that he had some contaminated supplements? He still sat out but had some independent testing show his supplements had a contamination in them. now whether or not that happens with testosterone is a good question...

Scott's positive was 13 years ago (2002). You'd sorta hope that we wouldn't still be talking about guys "accidentally" ingesting something in an other-the-counter supplement in 2015.

Exactly. With as many warnings as have been issued by WADA and others about supplements (tainted or otherwise) pro athletes are going to be extremely diligent about what they ingest. The fact that TD tweeted about investigating his supplements, rather than just saying "the findings are simply wrong" makes me think there's about a zero chance innocence.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

They are rare, and expensive, simple as that. Why do you think not every urine sample is tested this way? Because it is as easy as the normal ratio test?

Uh uh.

they are over a grand aren't they? over 1thousand USD Might be more, might be closer to a couple of thousand. They dont have the money to roll this test out.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

They are rare, and expensive, simple as that. Why do you think not every urine sample is tested this way? Because it is as easy as the normal ratio test?

Uh uh.

they are over a grand aren't they? over 1thousand USD Might be more, might be closer to a couple of thousand. They dont have the money to roll this test out.

In 2013 the test was around $400 per sample. So, USD $800 to test A and B samples.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

I went back to the thread that I started after Contador lost his CAS case. Here is the link I posted at that time to a report by NZVT, the Netherlands Security System, which tests various supplements, and if it can’t detect any banned substances, gives them its seal of approval:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465258/?tool=pubmed

In addition to the problem of intentional spiking of contaminants, they note that contamination can occur accidentally:

The difficulty of finding possible contaminations of a nutritional supplement was shown in one of the very first studies addressing this problem. A group from an anti‐doping laboratory in Los Angeles, California, USA [Don Catlin] proved the existence of tablet‐to‐tablet variation in contaminations.24 This variation was confirmed later that year17 and is still likely to exist. The experiences from the laboratories show that contaminations can be present in the raw materials that are used, both in the active ingredients and in the substances used to make tablets or capsules. This type of contamination is often referred to as “cross‐contamination”. A second source of contamination might result from a lack of sufficient hygiene in the machinery that is being used during the production process.

The article goes on to list testosterone specifically as a contaminant found in some supplements, and notes that "contaminations in nutritional supplements are most likely to occur with substances that are part of the groups of anabolic agents or stimulants."

In November 2001, the athletes nominated to go to the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City 2002 were given an opportunity to have their supplements tested for doping substances. They were asked to buy a supply of the nutritional supplements they were going to use during their preparation for the Olympics from a controlled sample of one batch. From this supply, a random selection of supplements was tested for several anabolic steroids, their precursors, and several stimulants.

The results of this preliminary study gave a clear insight of the seriousness, size, and scope of the problem. Of the 69 supplements that were submitted (mainly vitamins, minerals and creatine), 13 (19%) contained unlabelled doping substances.42 Most products showed traces of caffeine and/or ephedrine, one product contained a small amount of 3,4‐methylenedioxymethamphetamine (better known as MDMA or XTC), and five products contained anabolic steroids. By pure chance, two different batches of one single product were tested as well, yielding one positive and one negative finding.

Now this was quite a while ago, and as McR notes, athletes are well aware of the dangers of taking supplements now, or should be. But many still do, and supplements are not any cleaner, because they aren't required to be:

These results were reported to the relevant public authorities. The local authorities took appropriate steps to eradicate the amphetamine traces from the public food supply, but concluded that this particular issue is not a concern from a public health perspective but is first and foremost a sport and a doping problem, as the trace amounts found in supplements would not endanger general health.

The NZVT then notes its own criteria:

Based on the published facts that a precursor of an anabolic steroid in an amount between 1–10 μg can cause a positive doping test,18,24 and based on the fact that athletes easily use 50 g of supplements per day or more, a reporting threshold value of 10 ng/g or 10 ppb for all anabolic steroids is used in all tests. This value also allows for individual variations in metabolism. Excretion studies for stimulants are rare, but similar considerations led to the conclusion that for stimulants, a reporting threshold value of 100 ppb is opportune.

The 1-10 ug estimate is probably lower now. I think WADA uses MS to detect testosterone initially, and that should have a limit of < 1 ng/ml, or less than 200 ng in a urine sample, maybe ten times lower than that. There are some newer methods that can detect as little as 10 pg/ml. So while the 10 ng/g threshold sounds reasonable, it's not close to the detection limit, and if it's still in force, a sample that tested clean, if taken in large quantities by an athlete, might result in a positive test.

Cheers to you for trying to make the Cafe look innocent. Thanks for trying to roll out the "get free card" for Cafe. It is the Cafe's due diligence to ensure the things he is consuming is legit. Not anyone else's. He was on the sauce before what make this different? Maybe if he had the goods on LA AGAIN you would sing a different tune?

WTF.

I also note that maybe the legislation you are looking for for the supplement industry is blocked by the Repubs. Maybe that is why you are going after the rules so much? If say for example a more intelligent Demo was behind that crap you would just bust the portajon down?