Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

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roundabout

roundabout

Jun 7, 2010
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Red Rick said:
Remember how Roglic' win in the Vuelta never being in doubt was the only negative point about the Vuelta?

Decrease in ITTage is the counter to mountain trains and closer mountain stages, like slower tennis courts are the counter to changes in racket technology.

Now obviously I'm not saying every GT should have one 25km ITT, but I just think the days of 100+ km of ITT in a GT should be over unless something also drastically changes about mountain stages.

I think the bottom line should be about 40km of ITTage and I also think only the Giro could put in 80km of ITTs and still remain balanced.

Obviously all this would always depend on which riders are the best in the world at any given point.
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Or closer mountain stages are a result of decreased ITT kms. Thing with Roglic is that he was probably the best climber in the race, so in that case the route doesn't really matter.

Get a Casero v Heras or Nozal v Heras again and it's different story.
 
1

18-Valve. (pithy)

May 4, 2011
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Red Rick said:
Dumoulin wants to do Tour and Olympics next year. Says he's convinced he can combine the Tour with the Olympic ITT at least

Says the team will want him at the Tour, but once again talks about routes.

Poor Dumoulin. Boy is he in for a nightmare.
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Hmmm. I don't believe him. The guy isn't exactly stupid, so he should know what to expect, more or less. Not sure why Jumbo would have an issue with him targeting Olympic gold, either. They have a very capable leader in Roglic who was promised Tour leadership for 2020.

Dumoulin can now feign disappointment when the Tour route is unveiled, wait another week(?) for the Giro presentation (what do you know, much more TTing ) and then at some point him or Jumbo can unveil his "changed" plans to the media and target the races he really wants. The Olympics ITT and RR

He has already hinted at wanting to dom for Roglic at the Tour, so...

Giro for GC
Tour - dom and occasional stage hunter
Olympics - main goal
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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Feb 20, 2012
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No Dumoulin hints that he doesn't mind working for Roglic if he can win and he himself can't.

And honestly I doubt pro riders are as deep into rumors as we are. They've usually got better things to do than worry about that way ahead of time.
 
1

18-Valve. (pithy)

May 4, 2011
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Red Rick said:
No Dumoulin hints that he doesn't mind working for Roglic if he can win and he himself can't
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Yeah, with that disclaimer. Of course.

And honestly I doubt pro riders are as deep into rumors as we are. They've usually got better things to do than worry about that way ahead of time.
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Jumbo probably has some idea, but it doesn't matter. Anyone with half a brain knows that a Dumoulin-friendly Tour de France route is never going to happen in the foreseeable future.

More importantly, a focus on the Tour GC cannot be combined with the Olympics, IMO. It can't. It's one or the other. Freakish performances like Wiggo's 2012 season excepted, but I don't see Dumo bossing the GC and ITT fields a whole season...

The Tokyo ITT is basically his last meaningful chance at Olympic gold. You don't think he wants that more than anything else? That's why I question the narrative. It's all spin.
 
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Dekker_Tifosi

Dekker_Tifosi

Mar 13, 2009
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Everyone talking about Dumo friendly tours. The last Tour he did ride was anything but Dumo friendly, and he was still one of the strongest climbers in the race, and better than Roglic and Froome there. After already doing the Giro.

Idk if he gets to that level, and idk how that compares to Roglic level, but underestimate Dumo at your own peril.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Everyone talking about Dumo friendly tours. The last Tour he did ride was anything but Dumo friendly, and he was still one of the strongest climbers in the race, and better than Roglic and Froome there. After already doing the Giro.

Idk if he gets to that level, and idk how that compares to Roglic level, but underestimate Dumo at your own peril.
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Yeah nobody is asking for a Tour like 2012.

Just a Tour that's actually slightly balanced with either 1 long or 2 mid length ITTs.

Instead it's getting worse and worse and worse.

Not to mention I still think he could've won the Tour this year anyway.
 
Lequack

Lequack

Jul 10, 2014
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Apparently Tom (aka a random Dutch rider) is in South Africa riding a MTB

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EIwpvzlXUAAm4Lt.jpg:large
 
M

movingtarget

Aug 5, 2009
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Red Rick said:
Yeah nobody is asking for a Tour like 2012.

Just a Tour that's actually slightly balanced with either 1 long or 2 mid length ITTs.

Instead it's getting worse and worse and worse.

Not to mention I still think he could've won the Tour this year anyway.
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Would have been interesting. I think if Thomas had showed up in last year's form he would have won. I still rate Dumoulin ahead of Roglic especially in his 2017/18 form. I wonder how much Roglic has improved ? The Vuelta podium was an odd one but he did look better than he did in the Giro partly because of the opposition he faced. Yates also looked good in the previous Vuelta but hasn't done much since at least for GC. it's often a race where a rider can win a single grand tour only, and being a late season race, often, form can be more variable.
 
tobydawq

tobydawq

Nov 16, 2013
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Red Rick said:
https://www.ad.nl/wielrennen/dumoul...heb-geen-afscheid-bij-sunweb-gehad~a17a83b1f/

Big interview with Dumoulin

He speaks of how unhappy he was with all the carrying team Sunweb in the end. Leaving and being just one of 3 leaders is a weight of his shoulders. Also says right now Roglic is better than he is.
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Actually, I think he sums up very much my thoughts on the discussion some of you had earlier about whether he or Roglic could currently be considered the best rider.

I firmly believe that Roglic is the answer to that question but haven't contributed to that discussion because I couldn't really justify that with Dumoulin's Giro win and Giro Tour double second place.

But Dumoulin says in that interview that Roglic is dominating his races at the moment - and Dumoulin has never done so. Even the Giro he won was far from domination. And I think that's what makes me put Roglic over Dumoulin as well.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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tobydawq said:
Actually, I think he sums up very much my thoughts on the discussion some of you had earlier about whether he or Roglic could currently be considered the best rider.

I firmly believe that Roglic is the answer to that question but haven't contributed to that discussion because I couldn't really justify that with Dumoulin's Giro win and Giro Tour double second place.

But Dumoulin says in that interview that Roglic is dominating his races at the moment - and Dumoulin has never done so. Even the Giro he won was far from domination. And I think that's what makes me put Roglic over Dumoulin as well.
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Last year was weird. No idea how to rate the best GT riders compared to each other at the moment.
 
J

Joelsim

Mar 13, 2015
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How is it fair that a good TTer could gain 5+ minutes on one stage over a climber, yet the climbers would struggle to gain that much time back over 8 or 9 stages? I’m all for limiting ITT to 20km total and dispensing with TTT altogether.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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Joelsim said:
How is it fair that a good TTer could gain 5+ minutes on one stage over a climber, yet the climbers would struggle to gain that much time back over 8 or 9 stages? I’m all for limiting ITT to 20km total and dispensing with TTT altogether.
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Cause those TTers you talk about are still top 10 climbers in the world, while those climbers aren't top 100 TTers in the world basically.
 
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roundabout

roundabout

Jun 7, 2010
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Joelsim said:
How is it fair that a good TTer could gain 5+ minutes on one stage over a climber, yet the climbers would struggle to gain that much time back over 8 or 9 stages? I’m all for limiting ITT to 20km total and dispensing with TTT altogether.
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A good TTer who can gain 5+ minutes on a climber on a single stage probably produces more W/kg than the said climber if he is not 10+kg heavier
 
SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

Aug 13, 2011
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I think the bigger issue is the time trialer has a better team that can control attacks vs having as little TT's as possible. I wish we had more during races with more hilly and mountain time trials. I wish races could have 3 or 4 with all terrain and length.
 
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Dekker_Tifosi

Dekker_Tifosi

Mar 13, 2009
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Joelsim said:
How is it fair that a good TTer could gain 5+ minutes on one stage over a climber, yet the climbers would struggle to gain that much time back over 8 or 9 stages? I’m all for limiting ITT to 20km total and dispensing with TTT altogether.
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How is it fair that only a climber is supposed to win a GT? How is it fair to the guys who are taller and weight more that they should be penalized for riding fast on the flat by removing as much ITT as possible?

Right back at you.

I always think a GT should be won by the best allround rider. If a climber isn't within the best 15 tt-ers then how is he the best allround? Doesn't deserve it then, does he? While at the same time the 'tt-er' is still with the 5 best climbers...
 
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J

Joelsim

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SHAD0W93 said:
I think the bigger issue is the time trialer has a better team that can control attacks vs having as little TT's as possible. I wish we had more during races with more hilly and mountain time trials. I wish races could have 3 or 4 with all terrain and length.
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Yep, in every other stage teammates play a huge role in limiting the damage.

There needs to be some sort of balance, or the same riders will win everything. IMO it's already weighted towards the TTers.
 
kiszol

kiszol

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This is an interesting argument.
Why should we give climbers even bigger a chance than what they already have? The mileage of TTs is already on a low despite that time trialling is a core part of cycling and a core skill of a cyclist. A TTer benefits from a strong team on the mountain stages but similarly a climber also benefits of his team on every stage. Without teams a TTer would smash a climber on a simple flat stage... I agree that a GT winner should be an allround rider, not a TTer and not a climber. The TT/climbing ratio is dynamically changing from year to year but now we are at an almost ridiculously low TT mileage so this has to stop. Btw TTs wouldn't be that big of a problem if the true climbers would be able to beat the best allround riders on the mountain stages. In the last few years no climber could do that. Perhaps Bernal and Pinot did that during the Tour, but Froome, Dumoulin and Roglic weren't there so we can't be sure. Other than that the best GT riders were always as good or even better in the mountain stages than the pure climbers. And if it stays like that than the length of the TTs doesn't really matter, climbers will be smashed anyway.
 
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