Tom 'Pidders' Pidcock

[Berniece]

In the last 6 months he's won a XCO World Cup, a CX World Cup, and now a World Tour road race........No one else has done that; man or woman.

Being good at one discipline is impressive, he's good at not one, not two, but three. That's not really normal.......

Too many on here, and in the media simply don't get it; the ignorance beggars belief......

The topic is created in the road racing subforum.

 

[Stasat]

The topic is created in the road racing subforum.

It's still relevant. As anyone who has raced and trained knows, spending a meaningful portion of your training focusing on one hour efforts has a substantial effect on endurance road racing performance. It's impressive that he can juggle the two and still be in the contention for the win, especially in an Olympic year. He was training on the mountain bike in between PR and Amstel.

If he transitions 100% to road (or just cx and road) then a judgement can be made on wether he is overrated or not.

 

[Berniece]

It's still relevant. As anyone who has raced and trained knows, spending a meaningful portion of your training focusing on one hour efforts has a substantial effect on endurance road racing performance. It's impressive that he can juggle the two and still be in the contention for the win, especially in an Olympic year. He was training on the mountain bike in between PR and Amstel.

If he transitions 100% to road (or just cx and road) then a judgement can be made on wether he is overrated or not.

So if he stays juggling both, and never lives up to his supposed road potential we can never judge him?

 

[Extinction]

Big win for the guy and I was pleased he didn't botch the sprint, with all the pressure on his shoulders. He should, however, gift Vansevenant a year's worth of tripple-malt beer for leading him out!

 

[Stasat]

So if he stays juggling both, and never lives up to his supposed road potential we can never judge him?

Not in the context that he is being judged at the moment. He's balancing disciplines that do not necessarily compliment each other and then being measured against other riders whose focus is 100% road. How can he be over or underrated? There is essentially no answer to the question at the moment.


I do think it's a bad idea to be switching to GC with the current generation though. There's a potential that he and the team are overrating his abilities to compete with the top GC guys.

 

[Extinction]

I think he can pull off results that demonstrate his qualities, in this he's not overrated. His problem seems to be he can't always replicate such standards, either because he comes up against superior competition or he lacks self-confidence.

 

[Berniece]

Not in the context that he is being judged at the moment. He's balancing disciplines that do not necessarily compliment each other and then being measured against other riders whose focus is 100% road. How can he be over or underrated? There is essentially no answer to the question at the moment.


I do think it's a bad idea to be switching to GC with the current generation though. There's a potential that he and the team are overrating his abilities to compete with the top GC guys.

MVDP and WVA aren’t 100% going for the road. They also do CX, and MVDP might still go for Mountainbike

 

[Stasat]

MVDP and WVA aren’t 100% going for the road. They also do CX, and MVDP might still go for Mountainbike

I don't see where MVDP or Van Aert come into this? They are 75kg+ and compete in the cobbled and flat classics, Pidcock is 59kg and rides the Ardennes/GC you wouldn't have compared Valverde to Cancellera or Boonen either. Even so, Van Aert won 5 UCI races on the road last year whilst Pidcock won two and competed in 11 MTB bike races over the span on 5 months in the middle of the road season including training for & winning the worlds. MvDP did two MTB races last year (one DNF) and they were both toward the end of the road season after the road worlds when he had no other targets.

This year he's done a CX season, training for the Olympics, GC the Tour and improving his TT all in one year.

And I did mention in my first response that mixing only CX and road would allow a fair fair comparison with the top riders, it doesn't have the same impact as training and racing on the MTB in the middle of the road season does.

 

[BigCoward]

It's compared to the hype around him, and what he's supposed to be able to do. Which is being a GT winner and at the same level as riders like Pogacar, MVDP, WVA, Evenepoel, etc. Which he isn't.

I'm not sure you should be putting Wout '2nd prize' van Aert in with the others. He's won one important road race in his career.
He's also 5 years older than Pidcock. He is the walking embodiment of 'flatters to deceive'.

 

[Extinction]

I'm not sure you should be putting Wout '2nd prize' van Aert in with the others. He's won one important road race in his career.
He's also 5 years older than Pidcock. He is the walking embodiment of 'flatters to deceive'.

It's not just winning thought, Wout can TT, he can ride cobbles, he can field sprint and he can climb. That's a pretty complete set, if not the very best in any of them. But deep into 3 weeks he's been rock solid.

 

[BigCoward]

It's not just winning thought, Wout can TT, he can ride cobbles, he can field sprint and he can climb. That's a pretty complete set, if not the best in any of them.

His palmares sucks compared to the rest of the big 6 is my point.

 

[Extinction]

His palmares sucks compared to the rest of the big 6 is my point.

I think you are being too severe. Where he has lacked in big wins, he dropped Pogacar in the mountains (MVDP could not dream of doing so), enough said about his quality.

 

[BigCoward]

I think you are being too severe. Where he has lacked in big wins, he dropped Pogacar in the mountains (MVDP could not dream of doing so), enough said about his quality.

I'm only talking about his big wins. As an overall rider he is immense. But he should have so many more major victories than he has.

 

[Extinction]

I'm only talking about his big wins. As an overall rider he is immense. But he should have so many more major victories than he has.

Ah, but somebody has gotten in the way. He has also too much pressure in Belgium, which is a reality, not an excuse.

 

[AmRacer]

Ah, but somebody has gotten in the way. He has also too much pressure in Belgium, which is a reality, not an excuse.

Pidcock?

 

[Extinction]

Pidcock?

I'd say MVDP firstly.

 

[Red Rick]

I think you are being too severe. Where he has lacked in big wins, he dropped Pogacar in the mountains (MVDP could not dream of doing so), enough said about his quality.

If by dropping mean gapping someone temporarily then finishing minutes later then he could definitely dream of that

Like claiming he dropped Pogacar, without context, is overrating Van Aert by default.

 

[Sciatic]

In the last 6 months he's won a XCO World Cup, a CX World Cup, and now a World Tour road race........No one else has done that; man or woman.

Being good at one discipline is impressive, he's good at not one, not two, but three. That's not really normal.......

Too many on here, and in the media simply don't get it; the ignorance beggars belief......

Well, there are no bounds to ignorance in our society, we should no longer be surprised by it.
Also, you realize this thread is on a Road Racing forum, so there will be built in bias (by preference or by exposure) to a rider’s road racing exploits.

 

[Berniece]

I don't see where MVDP or Van Aert come into this? They are 75kg+ and compete in the cobbled and flat classics, Pidcock is 59kg and rides the Ardennes/GC you wouldn't have compared Valverde to Cancellera or Boonen either.

You said that he was taking the multi discipline approach, and compared to riders who don't. MVDP and WVA also take the multi discipline road and are compared to him.

 

[Extinction]

If by dropping mean gapping someone temporarily then finishing minutes later then he could definitely dream of that

Like claiming he dropped Pogacar, without context, is overrating Van Aert by default.

Nah, because to be there at that point in the Tour in that capacity and get the job done, however you look at it, was exceptional for one who can also field sprint, TT and ride cobbles. Let's not forget he also won the double Mount Ventoux stage, if not in the GC hunt, which is different, but nonetheless comenworthy for one of his standing. If MVDP went all in for such feats, I very much doubt he would dominate the cobbled monuments or could achieve the same success. It's choices, but I still don't think MVDP is as complete as Van Aert.

 

[Stasat]

You said that he was taking the multi discipline approach, and compared to riders who don't. MVDP and WVA also take the multi discipline road and are compared to him.

I didn't mention him taking a multi discipline approach in the context of CX/Road in any of my previous posts? Quite the opposite, I've said in two previous posts and now for a third time that having a CX/Road does not equate to what I would consider a multi discipline approach as the two disciplines do not run side by side on the calendar. My point was that he rides MTB and those races occur during the road racing program.

I've not even challenged the notion that he should not be considered part of the top 6. My initial response was to your post about the comparison with the top 6 being posted in the road racing forum and how any argument that he should not be considered a top 6 rider based on results/performances is flawed on the basis that he rides a different discipline (MTB) that not only runs concurrently with the road racing season but involves training and race efforts that are not conducive to performing in a discipline that places entirely different demands on the body.

He rode the Ardennes last year then did one month of MTB followed by 3 weeks of road training and into Suisse as prep for the TDF competing against riders who have spent the entire winter and road racing season up to that point training only for road and peaking for the TDF which was 3 weeks after Suisse some of which would have been to altitude before Suisse as well. It's pretty obvious that a month of one hour efforts followed by 3 weeks of road training is not optimal preparation for a 1 week mountainous stage race when all the competitors are nearing top form thus rendering any meaningful comparisons on the basis of results/performances void.

So What your claiming is that 1-2 month long MTB training blocks and races during the road racing calendar subsequently missing races and the necessary specific training has absolutely no influence on road racing performance and results?

 

[Extinction]

Nah, because to be there at that point in the Tour in that capacity, however you look at it, was exceptional for one who can also field sprint, TT and ride cobbles. Let's not forget he also won the double Mount Ventoux stage. If MVDP went all in for such feats, I very much doubt he would dominate the cobbled monuments or could achieve success. It's choices, but I still don't think MVDP is not as complete as Van Aert.

I didn't mention him taking a multi discipline approach in the context of CX/Road in any of my previous posts? Quite the opposite, I've said in two previous posts and now for a third time that having a CX/Road does not equate to what I would consider a multi discipline approach as the two disciplines do not run side by side on the calendar. My point was that he rides MTB and those races occur during the road racing program.

I've not even challenged the notion that he should not be considered part of the top 6. My initial response was to your post about the comparison with the top 6 being posted in the road racing forum and how any argument that he should not be considered a top 6 rider based on results/performances is flawed on the basis that he rides a different discipline (MTB) that not only runs concurrently with the road racing season but involves training and race efforts that are not conducive to performing in a discipline that places entirely different demands on the body.

He rode the Ardennes last year then did one month of MTB followed by 3 weeks of road training and into Suisse as prep for the TDF competing against riders who have spent the entire winter and road racing season up to that point training only for road and peaking for the TDF which was 3 weeks after Suisse some of which would have been to altitude before Suisse as well. It's pretty obvious that a month of one hour efforts followed by 3 weeks of road training is not optimal preparation for a 1 week mountainous stage race when all the competitors are nearing top form thus rendering any meaningful comparisons on the basis of results/performances void.

So What your claiming is that 1-2 month long MTB training blocks and races during the road racing calendar subsequently missing races and the necessary specific training has absolutely no influence on road racing performance and results?

So, you are saying let's base assessment on how he does with only a one-focuss all-in for the Tour and see how he does? But where is his TT, in a proper Tour, what is his true capacity in a GC hunt from the get-go?

 

[Stasat]

So, you are saying let's base assessment on how he does with only a one-focuss all-in for the Tour and see how he does? But where is his TT, in a proper Tour, what is his true capacity in a GC hunt from the get-go?

Nope. Didn't say anything even remotely related to this anywhere in any of my posts. I don't know why you've quoted a previous post of yours there? I didn't read that post let alone reply to it.

 

[Berniece]

I didn't mention him taking a multi discipline approach in the context of CX/Road in any of my previous posts? Quite the opposite, I've said in two previous posts and now for a third time that having a CX/Road does not equate to what I would consider a multi discipline approach as the two disciplines do not run side by side on the calendar. My point was that he rides MTB and those races occur during the road racing program.

I've not even challenged the notion that he should not be considered part of the top 6. My initial response was to your post about the comparison with the top 6 being posted in the road racing forum and how any argument that he should not be considered a top 6 rider based on results/performances is flawed on the basis that he rides a different discipline (MTB) that not only runs concurrently with the road racing season but involves training and race efforts that are not conducive to performing in a discipline that places entirely different demands on the body.

He rode the Ardennes last year then did one month of MTB followed by 3 weeks of road training and into Suisse as prep for the TDF competing against riders who have spent the entire winter and road racing season up to that point training only for road and peaking for the TDF which was 3 weeks after Suisse some of which would have been to altitude before Suisse as well. It's pretty obvious that a month of one hour efforts followed by 3 weeks of road training is not optimal preparation for a 1 week mountainous stage race when all the competitors are nearing top form thus rendering any meaningful comparisons on the basis of results/performances void.

So What your claiming is that 1-2 month long MTB training blocks and races during the road racing calendar subsequently missing races and the necessary specific training has absolutely no influence on road racing performance and results?

My point is that he doesn’t ride the results he was supposed to ride on the road. Fact that he also does other disciplines might be a cause of this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he doesn’t perform as well as they said he would.

 

[Stasat]

My point is that he doesn’t ride the results he was supposed to ride on the road. Fact that he also does other disciplines might be a cause of this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he doesn’t perform as well as they said he would.

The fact he rides another discipline in the middle of the road season definitely has an impact on this, it's not a case of it might have an impact.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is being misconstrued, I am not agreeing nor disagreeing that he should be considered part of a top a 6, just that it is a pointless argument on the basis that the prerequisites to support a determination wether that be for or against are not in place to do so.

Ask any coach they will tell you exactly the same, you cannot go from 1 hour efforts on a completely different bike with a different ride position and subsequently different loads on muscle groups & different energy systems then just jump on a road bike and expect to be at peak performance at the upper echelons of the sport where the differences between 1st & 10th are miniscule. That's not my opinion, it's fact. Van der Poel himself will confirm this, as he has done many times in the past;

“It is not yet decided (to do both MTB and road),” van der Poel told Olympics.com.

“We still have to make the puzzle. It's a really difficult combination, especially if you want to do the Tour de France as well. We have a few different scenarios on the table, but we have to see which one we're going to choose. I'll have to make choices, and I still have to think about it now.”

“It's difficult to mix for sure, but I think that the mountain bike is before the road race is an easier combination than the other way around,”