Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

this is what happens when Cav tries to pull a Cav

There was NO fvcking room between Sagan and the barriers for Cav to ever squeeze in-let alone out sprint Sagan.
I don't quite know who's the most stupid - Cav or the U.C.I.

This video makes it look like Cavendish's fault, but it needs the preceding seconds to actually be truthful and not fantastically selective. There you see Cavendish on Demare's wheel, and move to the right trying to follow it before Sagan also moved that way and closed off a fairly small but easily doable gap, and at the same time pushing Cavendish into the barriers. That's why the initial penalty was correct.

 

[Escarabajo]

Nobody wins today!

Just a message of how to do a sprint

- No change lines
- No elbowing
- No shoe throwing
- No farting
- No head butting
- No hand waving
- No finger pointing
- No bad mouthing
- Keep bike wiggles at 45 degrees.
- No butt touching
- No early celebration
- No late celebration
- Keep your shirt zippep up
- No pooping
- Etc

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Re:

Well, it's been a long, arduous journey, but all that work I put in towards qualifying to be an advisor to the UCI's Commissaire's panel finally paid off and I've just started my new job! Wish me luck!

Can you please DQ Christopher Froome too?

I'm sure if he pushed/elbowed someone into the barrier at 60kph they would

I am sure you are not right, true is that the british riders are not obliged to follow the rules and are protected, just imagine rider running uphill on Mount Ventoux - automatic expulsion and what was the outcome?

Well, in the case of Ventoux, they decided the race was officially neutralised from the point of the motorbike stopping and taking out Froome, Porte and Mollema, so in essence everything that unfolded afterwards didn't happen.

This isn't a case of Brits getting treated any differently in my regard, Had the roles been reversed today can you imagine the storm against Cav if it was Sagan down with a broken shoulder? I'm unbiased enough in my perception and moderation of this forum to admit that I'd have said Cav would have deserved the punishment for his actions.

 

[cineteq]

Re:

Is it still time for ASO to reinstate Sagan for stage 5?

- Cavendish pushed Sagan with his head to his left, while having no room to pass
- Inertia caused Cavendish to bounce and crash against the barrier
- Sagan lifted his right elbow in order to get his balance back as he was looking to follow Demare's wheel
- This was happening at 60km/h

 

[SlickMongoose]

Honestly, in this case I think the slow motion is incredibly deceptive, and the real time, face on view is much more accurate and straightforward. Cavendish gets smashed into the barriers.

In slow motion it might look like Cavendish leans his head into Sagan. In real time that motion happens in a tiny fraction of a second as Sagan comes across him. In slow motion it might look like Cavendish was going for a gap that was too small, but in real time it's clear that the gap is plenty big enough if Sagan doesn't act like a prat.

Whether or not disqualification is deserved is a different argument. I'll leave it to the rules lawyers. But the accident itself is clear cut.

 

[d-s3]

“The UCI World Champion Peter Sagan was disqualified today, according to article 12.1.040/ 10.2.2. (irregular sprint) in the result/communiqué,” it said in a statement. “The team disagrees with the decision and protested it officially.

“Peter Sagan rejected to have caused, or in any way intended to cause the crash of Mark Cavendish on the final 200m of the stage. Peter stayed on his line in the sprint and could not see Cavendish on the right side.

“The team applied for a redress of Peter Sagan’s result in stage 4.”

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re:

“The UCI World Champion Peter Sagan was disqualified today, according to article 12.1.040/ 10.2.2. (irregular sprint) in the result/communiqué,” it said in a statement. “The team disagrees with the decision and protested it officially.

“Peter Sagan rejected to have caused, or in any way intended to cause the crash of Mark Cavendish on the final 200m of the stage. Peter stayed on his line in the sprint and could not see Cavendish on the right side.

“The team applied for a redress of Peter Sagan’s result in stage 4.”

A glaring error in their statement is that Sagan didn't stay on his line at all, when Cav made his move there was a gap for him to go through.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

This is truly the only way this Tour can get so many posts for a single stage.

Maybe Froome will take a crap before the ascent of the Galibier?

 

[d-s3]

Re: Re:

A glaring error in their statement is that Sagan didn't stay on his line at all, when Cav made his move there was a gap for him to go through.

Yes. But I've never seen a rider being thrown out of a Grand Tour because of not staying on his line.
Punished? Yes.
Disqualified? Never.

Because then Cav would have to be disqualified dozen times, Demare today, ..., ..., ...

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

Well, it's been a long, arduous journey, but all that work I put in towards qualifying to be an advisor to the UCI's Commissaire's panel finally paid off and I've just started my new job! Wish me luck!

Can you please DQ Christopher Froome too?

I'm sure if he pushed/elbowed someone into the barrier at 60kph they would

I am sure you are not right, true is that the british riders are not obliged to follow the rules and are protected, just imagine rider running uphill on Mount Ventoux - automatic expulsion and what was the outcome?

Well, in the case of Ventoux, they decided the race was officially neutralised from the point of the motorbike stopping and taking out Froome, Porte and Mollema, so in essence everything that unfolded afterwards didn't happen.

This isn't a case of Brits getting treated any differently in my regard, Had the roles been reversed today can you imagine the storm against Cav if it was Sagan down with a broken shoulder? I'm unbiased enough in my perception and moderation of this forum to admit that I'd have said Cav would have deserved the punishment for his actions.

The outcome of the crash is really terrible, that's clear. I do not want to defend actions of Sagan. Something gone wrong during this winter with him, since his behaviour changed. But I have to say, that I do not buy two issues - first of them is to punish rider and then change the punishment, second - to exclude Sagan for something what happen time to time eventhough Cav was not excluded for far more obvious similar acts. Then it seems to me, that some riders are protected by UCI/ASO.

PS: Neurealisation - political decision, hard to say wheter reasonable, if I remember correctly it was Bauke Molema who doubt it ... .

PS2: To explain my position - I just purchased my Oakley Cav edition today .

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Re:

A glaring error in their statement is that Sagan didn't stay on his line at all, when Cav made his move there was a gap for him to go through.

Yes. But I've never seen a rider being thrown out of a Grand Tour because of not staying on his line.
Punished? Yes.
Disqualified? Never.

Because then Cav would have to be disqualified dozen times, Demare today, ..., ..., ...

Absolutely agree, but that wasn't my point. It doesn't look good when your official press release for an appeal is incorrect.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re: Re:

A glaring error in their statement is that Sagan didn't stay on his line at all, when Cav made his move there was a gap for him to go through.

Yes. But I've never seen a rider being thrown out of a Grand Tour because of not staying on his line.
Punished? Yes.
Disqualified? Never.

Because then Cav would have to be disqualified dozen times, Demare today, ..., ..., ...

This is why they went with the elbow BS. It's the only way to justify it. Problem is, his elbow comes out for balance, then Cav is already going down. The whole thing makes no sense.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

A glaring error in their statement is that Sagan didn't stay on his line at all, when Cav made his move there was a gap for him to go through.

Yes. But I've never seen a rider being thrown out of a Grand Tour because of not staying on his line.
Punished? Yes.
Disqualified? Never.

Because then Cav would have to be disqualified dozen times, Demare today, ..., ..., ...

Absolutely agree, but that wasn't my point. It doesn't look good when your official press release for an appeal is incorrect.

Agree with Pricey_Sky.

I think DQ Sagan for that was too much. But he didn't keep his line. Being objective here.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Agree with Pricey_Sky.

I think DQ Sagan for that was too much. But he didn't keep his line. Being objective here.

True. But neither did Cavendish, or Demare, or Greipel ...

But yeah, why lead with that? So unnecessary. Just say he was making the same move Cavendish was making, only he actually did have the gap.

 

[d-s3]

Well...

...
But complaints from Dimension Data saw the race jury reassess the incident and they decided to disqualify the Slovakian.
...
On Tuesday evening, shortly after Cavendish was confirmed out of the race, Bora released a statement saying they had made an official protest to the UCI.
...
The German squad’s protests are likely to come to naught however, with the UCI regulations clearly stating that decisions can not be appealed.

So the complaint from DDD can lead to reassessment.
But protest by Bora can't.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

I can buy that it's Sagan's fault because he closed Cav in, but I cannot buy the DQ. WAAAAAAAY too harsh. If Cav had been able to slam the breaks on and avoid the wreak, what would have happened to Sagan? Not a DQ, that is for 100% certain. 1 second later Demare does exactly the same thing (actually worse) and it's a miracle there wasn't a second crash. Yet there is nothing to answer for?

If you follow cycling outside the Tour, you would know that Sagan is a repeat offender. He had it coming for a long time.
UCI took a ballsy decision given they only care about money and Sagan bring to the sport many eyes who otherwise would not be interested as numerous examples in this thread show.

Unfortunatelly true, not sure, what has changed during last winter, but he changed his behaviour really wrong way. Probably he is under great presure and is unable to carry it.

Maybe because he start to cook for whole bora team and with all that recipes pressure and even maybe some meals complains?

 

[chiocciolis_calves]

If Greipel can't bag some stages now, he's not going to get any.

 

[d-s3]

Re: Re:

Agree with Pricey_Sky.
I think DQ Sagan for that was too much. But he didn't keep his line. Being objective here.

I agree with that as well (keeping the line), as I stated already. He should be relegated for that (to the last position in the group).
Demare as well.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

I don't buy that.

I don't know what happened with his favourite rider but after Ghent-Wevelgem Piti noticed the Slovak had a shaddy personality ...

Riders love him.People from watching him TV noticed something behind curtins?

 

[Carols]

I am not a fan of either Cav or Sagan. The relegation and loss of 80 points was justified and seemed sufficient punishment to me.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re:

Well...

...
But complaints from Dimension Data saw the race jury reassess the incident and they decided to disqualify the Slovakian.
...
On Tuesday evening, shortly after Cavendish was confirmed out of the race, Bora released a statement saying they had made an official protest to the UCI.
...
The German squad’s protests are likely to come to naught however, with the UCI regulations clearly stating that decisions can not be appealed.

So the complaint from DDD can lead to reassessment.
But protest by Bora can't.

Well, well, well...

 

[Tonton]

Re:

I am not a fan of either Cav or Sagan. The relegation and loss of 80 points was justified and seemed sufficient punishment to me.

Same here 100%. But the blind Sagan fans are annoying. Like the Cav' fans back in the day. Ha, the good old days , Lance, Ulle, ooops, I digress . And I thought I was a fanboy...today's display from Sagan's fanboys is definitely humbling me .

 

[jonovision_man]

Re: Re:

this is what happens when Cav tries to pull a Cav

There was NO fvcking room between Sagan and the barriers for Cav to ever squeeze in-let alone out sprint Sagan.
I don't quite know who's the most stupid - Cav or the U.C.I.

This video makes it look like Cavendish's fault, but it needs the preceding seconds to actually be truthful and not fantastically selective. There you see Cavendish on Demare's wheel, and move to the right trying to follow it before Sagan also moved that way and closed off a fairly small but easily doable gap, and at the same time pushing Cavendish into the barriers. That's why the initial penalty was correct.

EXACTLY. I keep reading "Cav tried to go where there was no room", it's complete nonsense. He was following a wheel, Sagan wasn't even moving right until AFTER Demare blows by him. Sagan tries to jump the wheel not seeing/caring who was next to him, plows into Cav.

THEN Cav is in a horrible squeeze and the rest is history... but you really need to watch more than a few frames to get the full context.

... then we can argue all night about whether the DQ was justified or not, but first people need to disabuse themselves of this notion that Cav was trying to sneak by where there was no room - it's really not true.

jono

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

I am not a fan of either Cav or Sagan. The relegation and loss of 80 points was justified and seemed sufficient punishment to me.

Same here 100%. But the blind Sagan fans are annoying. Like the Cav' fans back in the day. Ha, the good old days , Lance, Ulle, ooops, I digress . And I thought I was a fanboy...today's display from Sagan's fanboys is definitely humbling me .

They are only surpassed by the Porte fans after his obvious breaking of a rule and totally justified 2 minute penalty. Hopefully this one doesn't go on for weeks .

 

[Yingge]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

So I was battling to stay awake as the end of the stage neared (was 1am in AUS), saw the carnage, the finish and the provisional results, then crashed into bed.

And then awoke this morning to find that much more mayhem had erupted in the hours that followed. Tonight I will have a nap before the stage starts on TV.