Tour de France Tour de France 2022: Stage 11 (Albertville – Col du Granon Serre Chevalier, 151.7k)

[titan31]

In hindsight, just focusing on Vingegaard is what they should have done. Let Roglic go away. Because would Vingegaard keep attacking relentlessly with Roglic ahead? JV would have been faced with a decision.

Soler and Majka was strong enough that they could have paced the GC group on Galibier and probably deliver Pog to the last climb without Pog spending a crazy amount of energy. Maybe other teams like FDJ, Ineos, DSM would have helped in the valley with Roglic becoming a threat in the GC again.

Maybe Roglic would have only gained some seconds in the end or maybe he would have been reeled back on the last climb with Vingegaard and Pog having their mano a mano there. Instead of on Galibier after relentlessly attacking each other.

Pog is probably not losing a huge amount to Vingegaard on the last climb in that scenario, I think. At least hangs on for longer. Maybe keeps the jersey.

That would be very dangerous to leave Rog go with WVA up the road at that point and UAE didn't have the strength to control. Roglic likely gains several minutes there I'd say.

 

[Valv.Piti]

From 2012-2018, we got used to the Tour being a mediocre race and lets face it, mainly due to Sky and the way they (smarly) rode the races. They rode to their captains strengths, but it was extremely boring. We can all agree on that.

Now the scales have tipped towards the Tour again after years where the Giro always outperformed TdF, and honestly, thats how it should be. I watched most Giro-stages this year and was bored out of my mind, but have more or less followed the Tour since stage 4 from the gun on each stage and can't say Im disappointed. Rather the opposite, it has been a great watch so far.

 

[Big Doopie]

Pogacar probably has 3 weaknesses; his team, possibly altitude, possibly the heat.

your post was superb.

only quibble, you forgot Pog's most glaring weakness:

he is clearly the slovenian spilak.

oh, wait...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Being a child of the 80s, today's stage would be best represented by these clips, for Pogacar and Vingegaard.


Pogacar:

Vingegaard:

 

[CyclistAbi]

With all the talk about Vingegaard and Pogačar. In my opinion it's Roglič that made today's stage. Take Roglič out of the equation and it would never happen as it did.

 

[Breezy1985]

Vlasov and Lutsenko battling for best Russian.

Best nowhere person you mean

 

[Danskebjerge]

Vinge needs to thank Roglič for all the attacks on Pogačar today and thanks to Pogačar thinking Roglič is still a threat for GC win. Without that, Pog wouldn't blow up. Great legs also, a real climber.

It was so great to see because that was exactly what you need to do when you are two against one. Others have missed that opportunity in earlier Tours. Maybe Pogacar should have let Roglic go - he would probably have caught him later. But it's a fact that Pogacar rarely lets anything go, and that's what Jumbo used to their advantage here.

 

[BigCoward]

I guess this puts to bed discussions about whether JV could have dropped Rog in the Dauphine.

 

[Breezy1985]

From 2012-2018, we got used to the Tour being a mediocre race and lets face it, mainly due to Sky and the way they (smarly) rode the races. They rode to their captains strengths, but it was extremely boring. We can all agree on that.

Now the scales have tipped towards the Tour again after years where the Giro always outperformed TdF, and honestly, thats how it should be. I watched most Giro-stages this year and was bored out of my mind, but have more or less followed the Tour since stage 4 from the gun on each stage and can't say Im disappointed. Rather the opposite, it has been a great watch so far.

I think you will find for most of the Sky years the Vuelta broke the scales. Plenty of procession Giros back then too.

 

[Cagalitroso]

This graphics is really disrespectful to Lutsenko... What on Earth did he do wrong to not have Kazakhstan's flag there?!

being 'one of those pesky Russians' /s ...tbf the main broadcast showed the KZ flag

 

[CyclistAbi]

I guess this puts to bed discussions about whether JV could have dropped Rog in the Dauphine.

No. There will be races when both will be healthy. And there we can see the consistency after. In addition without Roglič it would have never played out as it did today. For Jonas.

 

[YavorD]

A new one to the collection. Beautiful!

S**t Riis looks like 50 in this picture.. Probably because of reasons not to be mentioned here.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Yes, yes, yes !
My wishes and those of a few others were granted. Jumbo attacked from Télégraphe/Galibier. With succes. Because the leader team is almost never attacked, I feared that the Jumbo team would not dare to do this either. However, there were some downsides.
Jumbo waited too long before attacking. Just before the top of the Télégraphe was too late to demolish Pogacar on the Galibier. But luckily this eventually worked out on the Granon.
Van Aert was also not used well. The intention was that Vingegaard would ride away alone before the top of the Galibier. Then Van Aert would wait for him on the descent and lead him through the valley to the foot of the Granon.
In the end, they didn't just let Van Aert wait for the group of Vingegaard, but he had to wait for Roglic. It made no sense, because Roglic was cooked. And with Roglic, Van Aert also brought back Gaudu, Bardet, but especially Majka. Fortunately it went well. But otherwise Gaudu and Bardet would have been a few minutes further down in the general. As a result, Gaudu and Bardet are still opponents for the next mountain stages

 

[fbjim]

S**t Riis looks like 50 in this picture.. Probably because of reasons not to be mentioned here.

He was called "Mr 60" because that's how old he looked

 

[Tim Cahill]

Greg and Zimmerman were 10th fastest up the Granon today with the heavier bikes, pretty impressive!

 

[red_flanders]

Yes, yes, yes !
My wishes and those of a few others were granted. Jumbo attacked from Télégraphe/Galibier. With succes. Because the leader team is almost never attacked, I feared that the Jumbo team would not dare to do this either. However, there were some downsides.
Jumbo waited too long before attacking. Just before the top of the Télégraphe was too late to demolish Pogacar on the Galibier. But luckily this eventually worked out on the Granon.
Van Aert was also not used well. The intention was that Vingegaard would ride away alone before the top of the Galibier. Then Van Aert would wait for him on the descent and lead him through the valley to the foot of the Granon.
In the end, they didn't just let Van Aert wait for the group of Vingegaard, but he had to wait for Roglic. It made no sense, because Roglic was cooked. And with Roglic, Van Aert also brought back Gaudu, Bardet, but especially Majka. Fortunately it went well. But otherwise Gaudu and Bardet would have been a few minutes further down in the general. As a result, Gaudu and Bardet are still opponents for the next mountain stages

Jumbo takes yellow with a 3 minute pounding of Pogi after attacking all day and using team tactics beautifully, and we get this. "Lucky", basically. Honestly, what is accomplished with the constant nitpicking of every tactical move?

These decisions are made in real-time by humans with specific incentives. Second guessing it after everything plays out with one's own incentives makes zero sense.

 

[roundabout]

Greg and Zimmerman were 10th fastest up the Granon today with the heavier bikes, pretty impressive!

I was initially confused why Wanty would give Zimmermann a heavier bike for this stage and why would he do Granon so fast

 

[tobydawq]

Finally, the Tour is raced like the biggest spectacle of the year! All too often the fact that the Tour is the most important race means that teams and riders are too afraid of losing to try to win until very late in the day when desperation takes hold, or the route neuters it. I was afraid that tomorrow's stage would scare people off making this one a big race, but with UAE's weakened team and the fact that Galibier north is such an absolute titan, it would likely still have been a bloodbath on Granon if they soft-pedalled Galibier just because it's hard enough in and of itself. I didn't think Jumbo had it in them. They'd certainly done little in the last three years to suggest they had this in them.

Thomas though... man. Wiggins was a matter of circumstance, the value to Sky and to the press of a marketable UK star at a time the German audience needed replacing, and a parcours tailored towards his victory. Froome was the main beneficiary, emerging just at the right time (somewhat conveniently) to capitalise on the new-found attention and budget being ploughed into the sport in the UK. Thomas spending a decade as a Classics man then turning into a GC man in his 30s and winning, not a tailored Tour but a regular one, has always just felt like rubbing our noses in it, and seeing him outclimb Tadej Pogačar feels like, Idunno, Harry Maguire suddenly turning into a 30-goal-a-year winger and pulling out a Puskas Award winner.

Hopefully now his "try not to be noticed and do nothing" technique has fallen by the wayside, Enric Mas can learn to do something.

I might have to be all in for Nairoman to get a career swansong podium.

I'm almost sad to take the bait, but:

It's seven years since he first showed he was capable of riding GC in the Tour. It's four years since he won the whole thing, three years since he followed the win up with a second place, and you still moan about his existence because he once was a track rider? How about moving on? It must be so sad watching cycling from your perspective, always having to find a negative in even the best of stages (unless of course it's a women's race, in which case everything is of course always great).

The fact that he beat Pogacar today was of course primarily due to the fact that Pogacar cracked, which you very well know, yet you still must contrive yourself to a way to take a jab at Thomas who is riding a good race but not exactly exceeding expectations.

I don't get what your problem is with him, he seems like a perfectly nice and pleasant human being, and a very professional bike rider who really knows how to build himself up for his main goals even when people generally seem to have given up on him.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Leading a group with a team mate in it, doesn't mean you're helping him. But today, the choice of going back to Roglic was evident, and it was the wrong choice. There have been many other examples. Van Aert is potentially the best domestique there is, but he isn't used as such (or doesn't want to be used as such).

When Van Aert let himself be overtaken and was instructed to wait further for Roglic, Van Aert was clearly not satisfied.
We could see that on television. It was a wrong decision by Jumbo. Roglic was coocked. And Van Aert not only brought back coocked Roglic, but also direct rivals Bardet and Gaudu.... and the strongest teammate of Pogacar, Majka. This could have caused Jumbo to lose the Tour, as Majka could still do a lot of work for Pogacar on the Granon, when Vingegaard in turn was isolated. Fortunately Pogacar cracked, not Vingegaard.

 

[ontheroad]

When Van Aert let himself be overtaken and was instructed to wait further for Roglic, Van Aert was clearly not satisfied.
We could see that on television. It was a wrong decision by Jumbo. Roglic was coocked. And Van Aert not only brought back coocked Roglic, but also direct rivals Bardet and Gaudu.... and the strongest teammate of Pogacar, Majka. This could have caused Jumbo to lose the Tour, as Majka could still do a lot of work for Pogacar on the Granon, when Vingegaard in turn was isolated. Fortunately Pogacar cracked, not Vingegaard.

It's just proof that the winner writes the script. It was a brainless move and just because Vingegaard won on pure strength and rode away to victory doesn't make it any less brainless. Mind you everything else by Jumbo was planned to perfection today so full credit to them but the Van Aert ride made no tactical sense either at the time or with the benefit of hindsight. Especially when you discover that Roglic ended up losing over 11 minutes.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm almost sad to take the bait, but:

It's seven years since he first showed he was capable of riding GC in the Tour. It's four years since he won the whole thing, three years since he followed the win up with a second place, and you still moan about his existence because he once was a track rider? How about moving on? It must be so sad watching cycling from your perspective, always having to find a negative in even the best of stages (unless of course it's a women's race, in which case everything is of course always great).

The fact that he beat Pogacar today was of course primarily due to the fact that Pogacar cracked, which you very well know, yet you still must contrive yourself to a way to take a jab at Thomas who is riding a good race but not exactly exceeding expectations.

I don't get what your problem is with him, he seems like a perfectly nice and pleasant human being, and a very professional bike rider who really knows how to build himself up for his main goals even when people generally seem to have given up on him.

Thomas does seem like a nice enough guy, yes, but I find his humour grating, the idea of this guy that I watched be a heavy northern Classics man for a decade dropping specialist climbers to be unpalatable and akin to Búfalo in around 2006, and the commentators, pundits and media fawning (and people who are supposed to be impartial observers calling him 'G' like he's their best mate and openly cheering him and demanding the audience do so too, like he's Jessie fricking Diggins or something) really grinds my gears.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Watching that pic of Rasmussen, that win at Tignes and Col d' Aubisque felt even more meaningful to me looking back than today. I think mainly due to the fact that I don't really know that much about Vinge, he isn't much of a personality, where as Rasmussen was... yeah, a special dude, someone very un-Danish if that makes any sense. I don't think I would be as sad either if Vinge suddenly were pulled as I was when they did it to Rasmussen. Robbery!

Weird thing to say, I know, but man I loved that guy. Still do.

Kinda funny though, racing for the same team and having an on paper leader/co-leader long way down the GC like Menchov in 2007, the win on the first Alpine stage after some long range attack, the outsider-role.. Vingegaard is probably a lot more likeable to be around for many people, lol.

 

[Tim Cahill]

So much to unpick watching this back, could spend years analysing this one.

I love how VDP did a massive pull for Van Aert at the start then just abandoned, sh*t eating grin on his face, wanted to stir some *** up one last time, reminded me a bit of Contador a fair few years ago (2016?).

Unnoticed I think was Michael Storer doing a monster pull to get Gaudu back up to the group.

There was a great parallel between the way Quintana/Thomas/Bardet rode the stage with Pogacar. Years of suffering on the bike translating to experience vs the over exertions of youth. This should be one of them road to damascus moments for him surely.

Rabobank using Roglic as bait, they surely knew he didn't have it, but the UAE didn't and that's what counts, brilliant tactics.

It reminded me of Pantani's attack on Armstrong in 2000, there was so much going on, and so much complexity was introduced into the race that he got his feeding all wrong.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Jumbo takes yellow with a 3 minute pounding of Pogi after attacking all day and using team tactics beautifully, and we get this. "Lucky", basically. Honestly, what is accomplished with the constant nitpicking of every tactical move?

These decisions are made in real-time by humans with specific incentives. Second guessing it after everything plays out with one's own incentives makes zero sense.

Not only my criticism, but also from the TV reporters on two channels where I followed the race. And some analysts after the race. Why do you think objective analysis should not be made? Without Pogacar's slump, bringing Majka back could have had a major impact. And bringing Bardet and Gaudu back wasn't smart either. That was not the fault of Van Aert, but of the team management.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

It's just proof that the winner writes the script. It was a brainless move and just because Vingegaard won on pure strength and rode away to victory doesn't make it any less brainless. Mind you everything else by Jumbo was planned to perfection today so full credit to them but the Van Aert ride made no tactical sense either at the time or with the benefit of hindsight. Especially when you discover that Roglic ended up losing over 11 minutes.

But not the mistake of Van Aert, but of the team management. Fortunately it went well.